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Thats very poor wording on his behalf.

Since the devices I mentioned earlier (credit card swiper, Flow meter) have no USB compatibility they are completely reliant on a 3.5mm port. Its not like you can just plug them into a lightning to 3.5mm DAC adaptor and they will work...that is one way traffic going the wrong way. Maybe if Apple designed an ADC but I find that incredibly unlikely.

"Redundant" would indicate there would be a way to adapt these things to the new standard however it appears they will need to be redesigned by their respective manufacturers (and then repurchased by me).

I don't know what to tell you about credit card swipers and other things except that if you're using a 6 or 6s or the soon to be SE. By the time any of those would absolutely need to be upgraded, I'm sure there will be a solution to those accessories for the 7 and newer.

That's how pretty much how all technology works. Things get replaced by newer things and customers have to buy those things again.

Just look at how many times people have had to re-buy movies over the last 20-30 years. And it's happening again with UHD BD. Blu-Ray is a Sony proprietary technology and it "won" vs HD-DVD. Apple never supported BD when they still used SuperDrives in their machines and still don't on their USB SuperDrive today, because they would have to pay Sony. USB-C vs Lightning will be the next "tech" battle in the near future for headphones. Either there will be one that will emerge as THE standard or something new will be created and become a standard.
 
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Apple is also said to be working on a new HD audio format for iTunes and Apple Music. Only accessible through Lightning though because it can do higher quality vs the 3.5mm.

This is 100% wrong, and demonstrates a 100% misunderstanding of audio and engineering applied in this case.

I didn't know that, it all seems to make sense, remove the headphone jack and use the lighting port also improve sound for Apple Music and iTunes, this will offset the negatives of removing the headphone jack. I'm looking forward to what Apple will announce in September, i'm currently using the iPhone 6 Plus so i will be upgrading to the 7 :).

Lightning can already deliver HQ audio now. No need to remove the headphone jack just for that.

In 3-5 years we'll live in a fragmented world of USB-C headphones, lightning headphones, and cumbersome lightning adapters and everyone will remember Apple as the greedy company that instead of adopting a universal connector for the future of digital headphones such as usb-c, they chose propietary.

Wireless is the non-proprietary future of personal audio. Not USB-C or Lightning. And what makes you think USB-C is the final word on digital connections? What about "USB-D" 5 years from now? Heck USB-C isn't even a universally adopted standard yet. And seriously, "cumbersome" Lightning adapters? What about cumbersome USB-C adapters? Or do you think everyone is just going to throw out their old stereo equipment and mobile devices to replace them with the new superior USB-C connectors? And why do they have to be cumbersome? I'll wager most adapters will be little more than slim extensions to a person's existing headphones, that won't even be noticeable in daily use.
 
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Since the devices I mentioned earlier (credit card swiper, Flow meter) have no USB compatibility they are completely reliant on a 3.5mm port. Its not like you can just plug them into a lightning to 3.5mm DAC adaptor and they will work...that is one way traffic going the wrong way. Maybe if Apple designed an ADC but I find that incredibly unlikely.

You do understand how these things work now, right? They generate analogue signal that goe into the mic pin on the 3.5mm Jack, which signal travels through the iPhones ADC where the card reader software is "listening" on the digital side of the output. Since any adapter designed to be used with a headset would offer this same conversion, and the software is still listening to the same digital address as it was before where incoming audio is routed, the card reader, et al, should work just as it did before. The worst case scenario, is that the card reader company will have to update the software to look to a new incoming location. And that's assuming you haven't already upgraded to a chip or contactless card reader with a 3.5mm Jack, giving ng you the opportunity to pick up a new one with those features that connects wirelessly or through Lightning. And even if you have, banks and service providers may replace them for free, considering how important they are to their business model, and retaining you as a customer. This is the least of the problems with removing the headphone jack.
 
You do understand how these things work now, right? They generate analogue signal that goe into the mic pin on the 3.5mm Jack, which signal travels through the iPhones ADC where the card reader software is "listening" on the digital side of the output. Since any adapter designed to be used with a headset would offer this same conversion, and the software is still listening to the same digital address as it was before where incoming audio is routed, the card reader, et al, should work just as it did before. The worst case scenario, is that the card reader company will have to update the software to look to a new incoming location. And that's assuming you haven't already upgraded to a chip or contactless card reader with a 3.5mm Jack, giving ng you the opportunity to pick up a new one with those features that connects wirelessly or through Lightning. And even if you have, banks and service providers may replace them for free, considering how important they are to their business model, and retaining you as a customer. This is the least of the problems with removing the headphone jack.

I don't understand that because its taking what I said slightly out of context.

Currently you can get a DAC...a DAC is NOT a ADC. And the credit card swipers will not work, this is something you can try yourself.

Thus Apple will need to create a ADC and then the software will be need to be modified like you mentioned.

I don't consider the requirement for the creation of new hardware and modified software "redundant".

I'm playing devils advocate to a fault. I'm confident by the time the iPhone is released accessories will be modified accordingly and everything else can use a cheap adaptor.

However Apple has been doing some strange stuff with recent products. Like an AppleTV with no actual way to charge the remote in the box, you need to supply a USB. Not a big deal from people like you and I however my I had to give my mother one of my old power bricks because she doesn't have a computer.

So when I hear no headphone jack the only thing running through my head is "how are they going to screw me over?".
 
I don't understand that because its taking what I said slightly out of context.

Currently you can get a DAC...a DAC is NOT a ADC. And the credit card swipers will not work, this is something you can try yourself.

Thus Apple will need to create a ADC and then the software will be need to be modified like you mentioned.

I don't consider the requirement for the creation of new hardware and modified software "redundant".

I'm playing devils advocate to a fault. I'm confident by the time the iPhone is released accessories will be modified accordingly and everything else can use a cheap adaptor.

However Apple has been doing some strange stuff with recent products. Like an AppleTV with no actual way to charge the remote in the box, you need to supply a USB. Not a big deal from people like you and I however my I had to give my mother one of my old power bricks because she doesn't have a computer.

So when I hear no headphone jack the only thing running through my head is "how are they going to screw me over?".

I know the difference between a DAC and an ADC. Apple's adapter will have to have both in order to plug in a microphone, or set of headphones with a built-in mic. I believe their 30-pin dock adapter already has an ADC. I don't believe the current software will necessarily have to be modified if Apple sends the the digital input to the same place the credit card reader is currently looking for it. Only if Apple changes that (and that's definitely a possibility).
 

Interesting there really is a difference sound wise going to lightning.

Of course and could be a strong "why" Apple wants to move people to Lightning. It's capable of higher quality. The difference will be even more spread once Apple releases their new hi res audio format said to be planned as early as this year for iTunes and Apple Music (which some articles also say only accessible through Lightning.)

Then throw in the fact that the headphone can have a better built in DAC/AMP that can bypass the inferior internal one. The entry barrier to great audio quality won't be to spend $800 once more and more companies release compatible headphones. And could start in the $200 ballpark. Obviously an $800 pair will always sound better because of higher quality speakers and components. But when comparing $200 3.5mm vs future $200 Lighting. The Lightning will sound better and could very well be comparable to current $400-500 3.5mm offered today.
 
Of course and could be a strong "why" Apple wants to move people to Lightning. It's capable of higher quality. The difference will be even more spread once Apple releases their new hi res audio format said to be planned as early as this year for iTunes and Apple Music (which some articles also say only accessible through Lightning.)

Then throw in the fact that the headphone can have a better built in DAC/AMP that can bypass the inferior internal one. The entry barrier to great audio quality won't be to spend $800 once more and more companies release compatible headphones. And could start in the $200 ballpark. Obviously an $800 pair will always sound better because of higher quality speakers and components. But when comparing $200 3.5mm vs future $200 Lighting. The Lightning will sound better and could very well be comparable to current $400-500 3.5mm offered today.


ONLY when plugged into a lightning source. (I bolded your last sentence btw)

The video demonstrates how they don't sound as good using the 3.5mm port of the phone. However the video does not show how those headphones sound when plugged into a high quality 3.5mm source. Those drivers can sounds at least AS GOOD if not better if you use an even higher quality DSP and DAC from a 3.5mm source.

It won't be possible for a manufacturer to make a set of headphones with a drivers, dsp, dac and apple fee for the same price as headphones wth just drivers. So a 200 dollar set of lightning headphones can't have as good as drivers as 200 dollar set of 3.5mm headphones. The video even mentions this, the lightning version is 200 dollars more. That price gap will close but it can not disappear without compromising quality.

I think I mentioned this before, maybe it was in a different thread but Lossless > Hi-res, def, random marketing term audio. Apple can't make it better than the original. That is like bragging iTunes 1080p movies are better than bluray quality when in reality they aren't even close. No matter how good the compression is, its still compressed. Apple cannot provide us with higher quality than we can already have access to.

If we really wanted to get down to it, 3.5mm and 1/8" ported headphones will always have a superior level over Lightning headphones because the equipment required to drive professional studio grade equipment can't fit in the headphone on the sides of your head nor could a mobile device deliver the power.
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I know the difference between a DAC and an ADC. Apple's adapter will have to have both in order to plug in a microphone, or set of headphones with a built-in mic. I believe their 30-pin dock adapter already has an ADC. I don't believe the current software will necessarily have to be modified if Apple sends the the digital input to the same place the credit card reader is currently looking for it. Only if Apple changes that (and that's definitely a possibility).

I was referencing the DAC they already have in their lightning dock. It does not work as a ADC, thus they will need to create hardware.

The reason I said software was the SDK is specific to the headphone jack for microphone access. Software changes would be the least of my concern though since it would merely be waiting for an update.
 
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Something I've just thought of - are the internal speakers powered by the same DAC/Amp that the 3.5mm jack is? If so removing the 3.5mm jack will have even less impact in terms of increasing physical space inside the chassis as the DAC/Amp will remain in order to drive the speakers. Also, the phone will potentially be powering two DACs/Amps if there's also a wired external one for the headphones?

Correct. Removing the 3.5mm jack does not remove the internal DAC. It's needed for the speakers. You are also correct about power requirements. High end headphones may have built-in batteries (one more thing to charge), but lower end ones and earbuds will not. Their DACs will need to be powered by the phone.
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The idea of an adapter would just be something simple like a 3.5mm female end and a lightning male end that maybe splits allowing charging and the plugging in of a 3.5mm at the same time.

No it could not. The Lightning port bypasses the internal DAC. Any adapter will need to have a DAC.
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Oh you mean like we didn't see any other devices accommodating the 30-pin dock connector for the original iPod? Obviously not as that was one of the most popular connectors in the iPod peripherals market. I'd say Apple was pretty successful in getting that standard adopted across an industry despite not being compatible with anything else.

How many devices that were not designed as a dock to an iDevice had a 30-pin connector? To eliminate the use of 3.5mm jacks everywhere, a standard is needed. Lightning is not it. USB-C is most likely it.
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What do Aux ports have to do with anything? That's the least of all concerns here since using an adapter with one is necessary by definition -- what is a 3.5mm male to male cable but an adapter?

I can empathize with people who wear headphones, and have to plug them into multiple unrelated devices brought a day, but in order to use an Aux jack, you have to carry around a special cable anyway.

The cable is just that, a cable. A totally passive device. A Lightning to 3.5mm is NOT a passive device. It needs to have a DAC. That needs power. Either from it's own battery, one more charger to carry/lose, one more piece of gear to charge. Or power from the phone, draining the battery faster.
 
There have been leaks that suggest it may have a headphone jack after all. I don't think we should panic yet. Remember the teardrop iPhone 5 in 2011?
 
I ask because I don't know.

Is it possible that future devices would be built in such a manner that it did not bypass the DAC?

Likely not. The Lightning port is designed as a digital interface. And it would render the argument even more stupid. Much of the kool-aid drinking crowd's argument is that the internal DAC is complete crap. So that passing the digital signal to really expensive headphones with a built in high quality DAC will sound so much better. It remains to be seen how much better an external DAC, of small enough size and frugal enough battery consumption can be made.

We're listening to compressed MP3. Very often in noisy environments. the difference can be negligible. The point that seems to be either missed or ignored by the advocates of the removal, is that you can already use Lightning headphones TODAY. How do they think the "tests" were done? No need to remove the 3.5mm jack. A lot of people will have to buy Lightning earbuds. That will come with a cheap DAC, likely of lesser quality than the built-in one. Because they won't spend $200 for earbuds. I rarely use headphones with my phone. People on the move also rarely use headphones, or at least high quality ones. Walk around and look at all the active people listening to music. It's usually with earbuds or small foam headphones.
 
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Likely not. The Lightning port is designed as a digital interface. And it would render the argument even more stupid. Much of the kool-aid drinking crowd's argument is that the internal DAC is complete crap. So that passing the digital signal to really expensive headphones with a built in high quality DAC will sound so much better. It remains to be seen how much better an external DAC, of small enough size and frugal enough battery consumption can be made.

We're listening to compressed MP3. Very often in noisy environments. the difference can be negligible. The point that seems to be either missed or ignored by the advocates of the removal, is that you can already use Lightning headphones TODAY. How do they think the "tests" were done? No need to remove the 3.5mm jack. A lot of people will have to buy Lightning earbuds. That will come with a cheap DAC, likely of lesser quality than the built-in one. Because they won't spend $200 for earbuds. I rarely use headphones with my phone. People on the move also rarely use headphones, or at least high quality ones. Walk around and look at all the active people listening to music. It's usually with earbuds or small foam headphones.

For our purposes a DAC is a DAC.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/high-end-pc-audio,3733-19.html

Toms Hardware test tells them a 2 dollar DAC sounds (to them) as good as a 2000 dollar DAC. And even if someone COULD hear a difference its highly unlikely you or I will be using anything remotely as nice as a 2000 dollar DAC.

So a 2 dollar DAC vs a 50 dollar DAC will be indistinguishable.

Amp on the other hand is a different story. Lou from unbox therapy recently tested out lightning vs 3.5mm on the same set of headphones. He could tell a difference....whether its worth the money is a different story.

 
I ask because I don't know.

Is it possible that future devices would be built in such a manner that it did not bypass the DAC?

Lightning is capable of dynamic signal assignments now. If Apple permitted it, an analogue audio signal could be passed through the Lightning port. That's one of the advantages of Lightning over a 3.5mm Jack -- you can pass any signal from the phone needed. The 3.5mm could be set up to do something similar, like the iPod Shuffle, but then at a premium of space, and far more limited function -- not to mention unecessary duplication on a space starved mobile device. However, if Apple did pass an analogue signal from the internal DAC/amp, then every adapter would have to have the licensed chip to tell the iPhone what to do when such an adapter and headphone is plugged in, and the resulting expensive adapter would do little more than change the shape of the port from 3.5mm plug to Lightning, which is alsmost as bad as buying a $10 adapter with the original iPhone which only allowed non-Apple headphones to fit into the hole on the phone, if the plug housing was too thick. My solution back in the day was to whittle down the plastic collar around my headphone plug with a knife, until it fit, rather than spend a dime on such an adapter. I suppose if there was any benefit to that pointless adapter was to drive headphone makers to pay more attention to design and slim down their own cables and connectors, instead of slapping on bulky, generic, off-the-shelf plugs.

Now Apple currently pays around $18 for their entire I/O package of the iPhone, of which the DAC and headphone amp are a small part. This move also allows Apple to pay less by using lower quality parts required only to drive the low quality internal speakers. Will Apple charge us less? Likely not, but we will see it in other technological improvements, in much the same way the freed up space from the bulky, single function, 3.5mm Jack will allow them to as well. Apple will supply a Lightning connector set of earbuds inside the box. They will be the same size as the current earbuds, and why wouldn't they be? New BT earbuds contain a DAC, amp, radio, antenna, and 3 hour battery in the exact same size decice. Moreover, they will sound at least as good as the current earbuds, and will not use any more power than if they were using the internal DAC and amp. My bet is that these headphones will sound even better, not because they are necessarily using a batter DAC, but because they will be using a better amp, dedicated toward driving the chosen transducers. The whole thing will have a better sound than what Apple previously offered -- and they sort of have to, don't they?

While some surveys indicate most customers won't be affected by this move, Apple is nevertheless going to have to sell that percentage of customers, however small, that it's a good thing, and Lightning and wireless will be better. So they have to demonstrate to customers they're getting something better for the sacrifice. I have to laugh at all the FUD getting pitched around these forums, that Apple will somehow roll out a lower quality, less convenient alternative to what they have now, and expect their customers to be so memorized by the Apple brand that they won't notice, or lose market share. That perception is pure delusion. And it's right up there with the idea that Apple would arbitrarily do this in an incredibly competive market, one in which they are currently losing market share, without the need by its competition to do the same thing. If all phone makers don't switch to digital audio on their flagship phoneswithin a year of Apple doing it, then Apple will truly be doomed. And they simply can't be that stupid. Intel's current push for USB-C audio is one indication that Apple has a pretty good idea of what they are doing, and not only are they leading the charge as usual, the solution they offer will be well thought out, and anything but this idea of cheap parts, and worse experience.
 
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Apple looks like its dumping 3.5mm for iPhone '7' I strongly object to this.

I would like to put it on record I will eat my iPhone 6 (Sept '14) if Apple inc dont include a FREE adapter in the box for the '7' worldwide.

Apple will commit 'commercial suicide' if they omit the FREE adapter for the '7' and FREE adapter for approx 4 to 5 generations of iPhones after September 2016.

Tim Cook is NOT a stupid man.
 
Likely not. The Lightning port is designed as a digital interface. And it would render the argument even more stupid. Much of the kool-aid drinking crowd's argument is that the internal DAC is complete crap. So that passing the digital signal to really expensive headphones with a built in high quality DAC will sound so much better. It remains to be seen how much better an external DAC, of small enough size and frugal enough battery consumption can be made.

We're listening to compressed MP3. Very often in noisy environments. the difference can be negligible. The point that seems to be either missed or ignored by the advocates of the removal, is that you can already use Lightning headphones TODAY. How do they think the "tests" were done? No need to remove the 3.5mm jack. A lot of people will have to buy Lightning earbuds. That will come with a cheap DAC, likely of lesser quality than the built-in one. Because they won't spend $200 for earbuds. I rarely use headphones with my phone. People on the move also rarely use headphones, or at least high quality ones. Walk around and look at all the active people listening to music. It's usually with earbuds or small foam headphones.

Lightning is capable of dynamic signal assignments now. If Apple permitted it, an analogue audio signal could be passed through the Lightning port. That's one of the advantages of Lightning over a 3.5mm Jack -- you can pass any signal from the phone needed. The 3.5mm could be set up to do something similar, like the iPod Shuffle, but then at a premium of space, and far more limited function -- not to mention unecessary duplication on a space starved mobile device. However, if Apple did pass an analogue signal from the internal DAC/amp, then every adapter would have to have the licensed chip to tell the iPhone what to do when such an adapter and headphone is plugged in, and the resulting expensive adapter would do little more than change the shape of the port from 3.5mm plug to Lightning, which is alsmost as bad as buying a $10 adapter with the original iPhone which only allowed non-Apple headphones to fit into the hole on the phone, if the plug housing was too thick. My solution back in the day was to whittle down the plastic collar around my headphone plug with a knife, until it fit, rather than spend a dime on such an adapter. I suppose if there was any benefit to that pointless adapter was to drive headphone makers to pay more attention to design and slim down their own cables and connectors, instead of slapping on bulky, generic, off-the-shelf plugs.

Now Apple currently pays around $18 for their entire I/O package of the iPhone, of which the DAC and headphone amp are a small part. This move also allows Apple to pay less by using lower quality parts required only to drive the low quality internal speakers. Will Apple charge us less? Likely not, but we will see it in other technological improvements, in much the same way the freed up space from the bulky, single function, 3.5mm Jack will allow them to as well. Apple will supply a Lightning connector set of earbuds inside the box. They will be the same size as the current earbuds, and why wouldn't they be? New BT earbuds contain a DAC, amp, radio, antenna, and 3 hour battery in the exact same size decice. Moreover, they will sound at least as good as the current earbuds, and will not use any more power than if they were using the internal DAC and amp. My bet is that these headphones will sound even better, not because they are necessarily using a batter DAC, but because they will be using a better amp, dedicated toward driving the chosen transducers. The whole thing will have a better sound than what Apple previously offered -- and they sort of have to, don't they?

While some surveys indicate most customers won't be affected by this move, Apple is nevertheless going to have to sell that percentage of customers, however small, that it's a good thing, and Lightning and wireless will be better. So they have to demonstrate to customers they're getting something better for the sacrifice. I have to laugh at all the FUD getting pitched around these forums, that Apple will somehow roll out a lower quality, less convenient alternative to what they have now, and expect their customers to be so memorized by the Apple brand that they won't notice, or lose market share. That perception is pure delusion. And it's right up there with the idea that Apple would arbitrarily do this in an incredibly competive market, one in which they are currently losing market share, without the need by its competition to do the same thing. If all phone makers don't switch to digital audio on their flagship phoneswithin a year of Apple doing it, then Apple will truly be doomed. And they simply can't be that stupid. Intel's current push for USB-C audio is one indication that Apple has a pretty good idea of what they are doing, and not only are they leading the charge as usual, the solution they offer will be well thought out, and anything but this idea of cheap parts, and worse experience.

Unfortunately in getting conflicting information here. Should I want to look this up myself further, share should I go? It's possible I wouldn underwent it anyway lol.
 
Unfortunately in getting conflicting information here. Should I want to look this up myself further, share should I go? It's possible I wouldn underwent it anyway lol.

what on earth is you last five lines about? you were replying to a quality post?
cheers
 
mock all you want. But truth is, killing the headphone jack is a dealbreaker for me.
"because a few weirdos are angry they will have to buy an adapter. Same morons who complained when lightning came around"
Do you remember when bulletproof iphone cases first started being a thing? And people had to get little headphone jack extenders to use their fancy Etymotics or Grados or whatever? Did you ever experience how frustrating it was when you left that little 2 inch long adapter at home?
It's just stupid to force your loyal customers to have to buy an adapter in the first place.
Fix what is broken Apple. Stop breaking what already works. That is not innovative.

And yeah, I will jump to Samsung over this, if Samsung deigns to keep headphone jacks.
 
what on earth is you last five lines about? you were replying to a quality post?
cheers
I said I wouldn't understand it. I've had multiple folks tell me that the lightning bypasses the DAC and multiples that it doesn't. I responded to one of each. There was one typo in my paragraph. Apologies. It should read "understand" not "underwent".

In short, I'm asking for a citations where I might find the information myself since I've had enough people effectively tell me exactly opposite ways in which this works.
 
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