iPhone 8 Infrared Face Detection and General Device Design Revealed in HomePod Firmware

[WatchFromAfar]

I just hope that if Face ID replaces Touch ID on the iPhone 8, that banks, credit card companies, do not stop supporting Apple Pay, due to security concerns. Hopefully with Apple's strong history of security, this will not be the case with the banks and credit card companies.

This fear makes no sense, you can use ApplePay without TouchID now by using your PIN:

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/6994870?start=0&tstart=0

If the financial services are happy with this now why would they stop if the iPhone 8 doesn't have TouchID?, they've demonstrated they don't consider it a requirement for ApplePay.

 

[Fatboy71]

This fear makes no sense, you can use ApplePay without TouchID now by using your PIN:

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/6994870?start=0&tstart=0

If the financial services are happy with this now why would they stop if the iPhone 8 doesn't have TouchID?, they've demonstrated they don't consider it a requirement for ApplePay.

Well you learn something everyday. I always thought that Apple Pay needed Touch ID to work. Yeah I see now that Face ID (or whatever its called) wouldn't cause any new fears to the banks, credit card companies.

 

[mrklaw]

if done well, it could be much better than touch id if you imagine the best UX with it.

thats an easy statement to make without any backup. I can't see it myself.

right now, touch ID can be triggered in advance (double click home while locked) so you can prepare it and then just tap. That would probably be ok with face recognition.

But the main way I use touch ID is reactive - I just put my phone on the NFC terminal and the prompt pops up, and my finger is already on the home button to authenticate. I'm not thinking, I'm not positioning anything particularly. Trying to do this with facial recognition simply won't be an option in many situations - the NFC reader is in an awkward position or angle not suited to having the front of your phone pointing at your face.

 

[X--X]

Please enlighten me:
What's the difference between having to remove your glasses in sunny weather and removing your gloves in cold weather?

When are people in general more likely to be outside for long periods of time using their phones every few minutes...

In the winter, on days when it's so freezing cold that you need gloves, or in the summer and spring?

Enlightened?


In other words: Sure there are people living in ice castles without sunglasses, but they are certainly not a mass market.

 

[SwissGuy93]

So much complaining...

Its amazing how conservative and reluctant to change people are. Before Touch ID was out, everybody was complaining it would not be as safe as a passcode, how criminals would chop people's fingers off to access phones, how they would never use it, how inaccurate it would be, ....

Guess what? Everybody instantly loved Touch ID. And the same will be true for Face ID. Apple will do this right, or they won't release it (yet).

And either it will completely replace Touch ID on their high end phones or it will be an additional feature where you can start using your phone right away without touching it but still need Touch ID for payments. Giving the security investments in Apple Pay, my money is on the latter scenario.

This. Do you reeeeally think Apple would implement the 2D facial recogonition every run-of-the-mill phone has nowadays. Iris Scanning? Nope, to slow and imperfect.
Let's not forget that Apple has bought a Swiss software company that created software which made a digital 3D print of your face. They used it for CGI and stuff. Now, Apple has had the software of Faceshift (the company I mentioned) for over 1.5 years which means it could be ready for September. Imagine this: When you set your iPhone up you will have to scan your face (like with TouchID) and will then map your face with different anchors or marks or whatever. So, even if you wear sunglasses or a hat or something, enough other anchors or marks will be visible for your phone to unlock. And thanks to the 3D depth perception there will be no tricking it with pictures and stuff. And because of all different markings AND 3D perception there would be no problem with different angles.
I don't get why you all are so hesitant. I mean this could be great! This could be huge!

 

[WatchFromAfar]

The good thing about the infrared approach is, that it would work in every light condition (also very dark etc), because as mentioned, it relies on infrared and not "normal" light.

While your correct I feel lots of posters still don't get infrared; let me reassure them:

Here's a test:
Wait until night time.
Turn off all your lights.
Close your curtains.
Turn off your TV.
Get your TV remote.
Point it at your TV.
Press the "On/Power" button on your remote.
Does your TV turn on?

Bingo.

 

[JayIsAwesome]

So much complaining...

Its amazing how conservative and reluctant to change people are. Before Touch ID was out, everybody was complaining it would not be as safe as a passcode, how criminals would chop people's fingers off to access phones, how they would never use it, how inaccurate it would be, ....

Guess what? Everybody instantly loved Touch ID. And the same will be true for Face ID.

Pretty much this. Even if Apple replaced touch ID with face ID or put touch ID on the back of the phone....people will adapt. Hell I've gotten used to the fingerprint sensor on my S8 to the point that it almost feels weird to use touch ID on the front of my iPhone.

 

[mrklaw]

Do you really think it would work like that? When you pay with apple pay you mostly look at your phone, don't you? The great thing about infrared is, that you wouldn't need to have it in a perfect angle. Like TouchID it works with every angle. Before TouchID we always hat to put the finger in the right direction or perfect angle. With TouchID this hassle was over, and it will be the same with FaceID or whatever they will call it.

no, I don't mostly look at my phone. I tap it on the NFC reader and I glance at the Touch ID icon on screen to check its confirmed, then remove the phone and put it back in my pocket. The phone is usually pointing up at the ceiling. Unless it has an almost 180 degree camera it isn't seeing my face.

 

[Mildredop]

Every face detection I've seen so far is just b.s. tech.

They are unreliable, they are slow, you can't wear sunglasses in the summer, it just sucks.

Unless Apple has invented a new world wonder of face tech, it's gonna be far inferior to touch id.

No sunglasses, no deal for me.

I do agree. There are also issues with the phone laying on a desk or bedside table. Unless it somehow has an incredibly wide camera, you need to be quite square on to the phone for them to be able to see you.

Samsung phones (amongst others) have had face detection for many years. But after just a few "face not detected" errors and I turned it off and have never bothered again.

 

[joiwomcow]

.... and the police will be able to easily force people to unlock their phones. I guess Apple's earlier fight with the FBI was more bruising than expected.

 

[Mac32]

I would have preferred Touch ID, but I'm sure this will work ok as a placeholder. HOWEVER, Apple needs to make 7s/7s+ (or whatever it'll be called) more compact - ie. smaller bezels. The iPhone 7 design is already way out-of-date, and in serious need of being updated.

 

[gijoeinla]

After thinking this through - it would b utterly ridiculous to fathom that Apple - on this particular model would throw away Touch ID and 1000% switch to a brand new security system. Doesn't at all make sense.

Transitionally maybe.

As far as Apple Pay - the phone is already facing us.

The BIG question is why the HomePod have to have this language in its firmware ? Meaning what will this technology mean to the HomePod ?

 

[SwissGuy93]

no, I don't mostly look at my phone. I tap it on the NFC reader and I glance at the Touch ID icon on screen to check its confirmed, then remove the phone and put it back in my pocket. The phone is usually pointing up at the ceiling. Unless it has an almost 180 degree camera it isn't seeing my face.

Well, I am sorry then maybe you will need to tilt the iPhone 8 a bit towards you, so that it will be able to scan your face. And who knows! Maybe they have implemented TouchID. The code only points to Facial recognition. It does not state that there will be no TouchID.

 

[RamGuy]

I'm eager to see what size display this phone will have, and what kind of aspect ratio. Will they go the same route as Samsung and LG and make it super tall 18.5:9 or keep with the more sensible 16:9?

For some reason I feel like Apple will not keep with the times. They were very slow to introduce larger displays and the market trend points towards people preferring even larger displays than Apple is currently offering. I for myself hopes the new iPhone will have about the same physical size as the current Plus model but with a much larger display due to the elimination of the bezels.

But for some reason I fear that Apple will keep the same display size and just make the phone smaller. Or even worse, go down in display size and try to make the phone about the same size as the regular iPhone but with a larger (something about 5,2 inches) display.

If they end up with a 5,2 inch 18.5:9 display I will be sorely disappointed. The phone would give me greatly reduced screen real estate and that's the last thing I'd want. Make it big, or go home.

 

[WatchFromAfar]

When are people in general more likely to be outside for long periods of time using their phones every few minutes...

In the winter, on days when it's so freezing cold that you need gloves, or in the summer and spring?

Enlightened?

No not really, you've either missed the point or dodged the question. I was comparing like-for-like situations. You implied it would be a pain to keep having to remove your sunglasses to use 3D facial recognition for ApplePay, I suggested it would be the same pain having to keep removing your gloves to use ApplePay. The same situation, I never mentioned anything about "outside for long periods".

 

[SwissGuy93]

After thinking this through - it would b utterly ridiculous to fathom that Apple - on this particular model would throw away Touch ID and 1000% switch to a brand new security system. Doesn't at all make sense.

Transitionally maybe.

As far as Apple Pay - the phone is already facing us.

The BIG question is why the HomePod have to have this language in its firmware ? Meaning what will this technology mean to the HomePod ?

Why wouldn't it make sense? Just because TouchID has established itself there can be no newer and / or better solution? Apple is known for drastic cuts.

Well, about the HomePod question: I think it's because the HomePod will have an A8 Chip which means it will run iOS. And this software update / push / whatever was not meant to be public. So all the security features which prevent us from accessing the source code (or at least restricting the access) which are normally in place, were disabled. That is why it was quite "easy" for him to find the necessary files.

 

[jermwhl]

This fear makes no sense, you can use ApplePay without TouchID now by using your PIN:

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/6994870?start=0&tstart=0

If the financial services are happy with this now why would they stop if the iPhone 8 doesn't have TouchID?, they've demonstrated they don't consider it a requirement for ApplePay.

That thread doesn't officially answer that question. It goes back and forth and doesn't really reach a conclusion. Some speculate the "passcode" portion for in-app purchases only. I haven't seen anything definitive either way. I'm not saying you're wrong, but that thread doesn't officially or specifically answer the question.

 

[plexdk]

So, it’s confirmed. This is the new iPhone design! Not that exciting

its a big screen with almost no bezels, pretty exciting ?

 

[SwissGuy93]

I'm eager to see what size display this phone will have, and what kind of aspect ratio. Will they go the same route as Samsung and LG and make it super tall 18.5:9 or keep with the more sensible 16:9?

For some reason I feel like Apple will not keep with the times. They were very slow to introduce larger displays and the market trend points towards people preferring even larger displays than Apple is currently offering. I for myself hopes the new iPhone will have about the same physical size as the current Plus model but with a much larger display due to the elimination of the bezels.

But for some reason I fear that Apple will keep the same display size and just make the phone smaller. Or even worse, go down in display size and try to make the phone about the same size as the regular iPhone but with a larger (something about 5,2 inches) display.

If they end up with a 5,2 inch 18.5:9 display I will be sorely disappointed. The phone would give me greatly reduced screen real estate and that's the last thing I'd want. Make it big, or go home.

Well, there are TONS of people out there who think that even the iPhone 6 / 7 is too big, not to even mention the Plus-Version. We are geeks and we want as big a screen as possible. But most people just want a "normal" sized phone (whatever normal sized means for them). And most leaks and calculations point towards a 5.9 inch with a 18:9 ratio, which would be quite big, in a rather small formfactor.

 

[NBAasDOGG]

I find it very funny to see when people complained about a rear TouchID.
Now the same people are convincing themselves that the lack of TouchID will be replaced by something more convenient (FaceID), and even willing to pay $1000 ($1400 in EU - $1300 UK) for such device... gotta love these sheeples

 

[WatchFromAfar]

That thread doesn't officially answer that question. It goes back and forth and doesn't really reach a conclusion. Some speculate the "passcode" portion for in-app purchases only. I haven't seen anything definitive either way. I'm not saying you're wrong, but that thread doesn't officially or specifically answer the question.

OK this is from Apple themselves:

"Every transaction on your iPhone, iPad, or Mac requires you to authenticate with Touch ID or your passcode"

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201469

Unless Apple is lying I don't think TouchID is required for ApplePay.

PS I hope I didn't come off sounding like a jerk

 

[X--X]

You implied it would be a pain to keep having to remove your sunglasses to use 3D facial recognition for ApplePay

Never talked about or mentioned ApplePay in this entire thread, not even once.

The problem is normal use. Every time you want to use your phone, you need to authorize with TouchID. If they fully switch to face detection that would be SUPER inconvenient.

If you have to take off your sunglasses every time you want to look at your phone, in the summer or spring, than it's useless.

 

[SwissGuy93]

I find it very funny to see when people complained about a rear TouchID.
Now the same people are convincing themselves that the lack of TouchID will be replaced by something more convenient (FaceID), and even willing to pay $1000 ($1400 in EU - $1300 UK) for such device... gotta love these sheeples

There is no proof that there will no TouchID. And secondly, you are free to leave this thread if we are soo annoying.

 

[WatchFromAfar]

Never talked about or mentioned ApplePay in this entire thread, not even once.

The problem is normal use. Every time you want to use your phone, you need to authorize with TouchID. If they fully switch to face detection that would be SUPER inconvenient.

If you have to take off your sunglasses every time you want to look at your phone, in the summer or spring, than it's useless.

OK you win, jeez talk about two people (myself included) whining over first world problems...

 

[X--X]

OK you win, jeez talk about two people (myself included) whining over first world problems...

Ha! I guess every problem on MacRumors is first world.