iPhone SE and the missing barometer

[lordofthereef]

Above, plus, in theory, populating the world with hundreds of millions of devices with barometers in them has the potential to radically alter the way that weather is forecast much the way that Google has almost unbelievably good traffic monitoring due to the existence of the cell phone.

That's an interesting idea. Would this be offering this information in the background? Or perhaps "phoning gone" whenever a weather app is open?

Is the current hardware accurate enough to provide reliable data? What's stopping this hardware:software harmony from existing already?

Some of this crossed my mind, but I wasn't certain that the phones in our pockets would actually send reliable enough information to base weather patterns on it. I imagine traffic patterns are much easier and more reliable to track with a phone? Speaking from my gut though, because I honestly don't know.

 

[I7guy]

As I've said many times in this thread, from the very beginning, a barometer is much more accurate for measuring small elevation changes. The iPhone is almost certainly the single most popular tracking device made for running/hiking/cycling, and those activities can have much more accurate elevation profiles applied to them when barometric elevation data is paired with GPS positional data. It's not essential, but it's certainly useful. Just last week I had to explain to a friend who had done hill repeats on a small hill in his city why Strava recorded his extensive workout as zero elevation gain. It was because his device had no barometer and Strava ignores GPS elevation data below 40' of change.



Above, plus, in theory, populating the world with hundreds of millions of devices with barometers in them has the potential to radically alter the way that weather is forecast much the way that Google has almost unbelievably good traffic monitoring due to the existence of the cell phone.

Doesn't it make more sense to have traffic sensors in cars, instead of using a cell phone to transmit information?

Also, theoretically forcing the all wireless carriers to offer UDP at a reasonable cost would radically alter the way people use cell phones.

 

[cynics]

As I've said many times in this thread, from the very beginning, a barometer is much more accurate for measuring small elevation changes. The iPhone is almost certainly the single most popular tracking device made for running/hiking/cycling, and those activities can have much more accurate elevation profiles applied to them when barometric elevation data is paired with GPS positional data. It's not essential, but it's certainly useful. Just last week I had to explain to a friend who had done hill repeats on a small hill in his city why Strava recorded his extensive workout as zero elevation gain. It was because his device had no barometer and Strava ignores GPS elevation data below 40' of change..

I understand it can be useful for fitness tracking. However I said I was curious to talk to someone who finds a baramoeter a useful addition in an iPhone specifically for hiking/climbing/back packing. While the latter does require a level of fitness the two shouldn't be confused with each other.

 

[lordofthereef]

Doesn't it make more sense to have traffic sensors in cars, instead of using a cell phone to transmit information?

Also, theoretically forcing the all wireless carriers to offer UDP at a reasonable cost would radically alter the way people use cell phones.

To some degree, yes. I thought no we've just tapped into the traffic information aspect with people willingly providing Google with live traffic data. In other words, traffic sensing in our phones is already a thing. In our cars, not so much. Adding them in s vehicle is just another thing to add whereas our phones "all" come equipped with the necessary goods.

 

[I7guy]

To some degree, yes. I thought no we've just tapped into the traffic information aspect with people willingly providing Google with live traffic data. In other words, traffic sensing in our phones is already a thing. In our cars, not so much. Adding them in s vehicle is just another thing to add whereas our phones "all" come equipped with the necessary goods.

Yes, of course you are correct. The larger question is now that our phones, measure steps, have gyroscopes, acceloremeters etc. where does it stop? Why not uv sensors for examples?

 

[lordofthereef]

Yes, of course you are correct. The larger question is now that our phones, measure steps, have gyroscopes, acceloremeters etc. where does it stop? Why not uv sensors for examples?

Those working in the medical field might appreciate not having to wear their radiation pins too.

 

[AVN6293]

lordofthereef said:

Yes. Yes it was said s few times. Hint: not by you. It seems the thread was "cleaned up", so you may have a hard time finding it. I believe the direct quote was "unusable in real time", whatever that means.

He and I were simply try to get an understanding of why a phone like this is unusable to anyone. I even asked something along the lines of "why is it unusable to you?" We were never offered one.
​

I'll repeat , though it may be in deaf ears, that I'm not even arguing that the barometer removal was fair, or good, or right. I'm simply trying to understand how this light effect me today, tomorrow, five years down the road. But again, all that keeps being repeated is how terrible Apple is with their planned obsolescence and how foolish we all are for supporting it. I've still yet to be given a tangible reason why this barometer should matter to me. And at this point I don't expect to. Because the argument isn't really about how important a barometer is in a phone. Not really.


As I've said many times in this thread, from the very beginning, a barometer is much more accurate for measuring small elevation changes. The iPhone is almost certainly the single most popular tracking device made for running/hiking/cycling, and those activities can have much more accurate elevation profiles applied to them when barometric elevation data is paired with GPS positional data. It's not essential, but it's certainly useful. Just last week I had to explain to a friend who had done hill repeats on a small hill in his city why Strava recorded his extensive workout as zero elevation gain. It was because his device had no barometer and Strava ignores GPS elevation data below 40' of change.



Above, plus, in theory, populating the world with hundreds of millions of devices with barometers in them has the potential to radically alter the way that weather is forecast much the way that Google has almost unbelievably good traffic monitoring due to the existence of the cell phone.

It was in real life not in real time. But no matter.

Zhenya, lets also not forget that the issue goes far deeper than just elevation to aid gps. It's also the initial burn-in period, doppler shifting aid, and environment teardown. All things i'd be happy to go over with you over PM as they are a little bit on the highly technical side.

where does it stop? Why not uv sensors for examples?

UV sensors would be a great addition as well. They would also be a compliment to existing technology.
On the technical side they could also aid in environment teardown further complimenting GPS (location services).
The problem there is however UV sensor technology is fairly new and unless you stick your phone in a iron lung (barometric pressure tube) there are few ways far and apart to interfere with pressure readings.

Light exposure can also already be calculated in a rudimentary way using the front facing camera or the ambient light sensor.



EDIT:
I'm sorry to sound condescending against apple. I actually love some of their products. I own 3 iPod nanos as well on top of everything else i use (itunes, Qt, etc) (attached is a photo of 2 of them).
However i just want to underline not giving more considerations with regards to the barometer removed is a very important linchpin in what i was hoping to be my next ecosystem.
I loved where apple was taking things (maybe not so much the removal of coverflow but everything else). Especially with iOS 9 and starting in mavericks then again further down the line in yosemite.

All in all, this really took the wind out of my sails

 

[I7guy]

It was in real life not in real time. But no matter.

Zhenya, lets also not forget that the issue goes far deeper than just elevation to aid gps. It's also the initial burn-in period, doppler shifting aid, and environment teardown. All things i'd be happy to go over with you over PM as they are a little bit on the highly technical side.



UV sensors would be a great addition as well. They would also be a compliment to existing technology.
On the technical side they could also aid in environment teardown further complimenting GPS (location services).
The problem there is however UV sensor technology is fairly new and unless you stick your phone in a iron lung (barometric pressure tube) there are few ways far and apart to interfere with pressure readings.

Light exposure can also already be calculated in a rudimentary way using the front facing camera or the ambient light sensor.



EDIT:
I'm sorry to sound condescending against apple. I actually love some of their products. I own 3 iPod nanos as well on top of everything else i use (itunes, Qt, etc) (attached is a photo of 2 of them).
However i just want to underline not giving more considerations with regards to the barometer removed is a very important linchpin in what i was hoping to be my next ecosystem.
I loved where apple was taking things (maybe not so much the removal of coverflow but everything else). Especially with iOS 9 and starting in mavericks then again further down the line in yosemite.

All in all, this really took the wind out of my sails

The thing is, what you point to is the fracturing of the product line, which is apples current direction. The most obvious example is OIS. 3dt and the barometer are two other examples on the SE.

It's being discussed here, as a rumor of course, on the upcoming iPhone 7 with different features.

Whether the barometer was left out off the SE as a cost item or product differentiation, only Apple knows, but it's true know what you are buying.

 

[AVN6293]

The thing is, what you point to is the fracturing of the product line, which is apples current direction. The most obvious example is OIS. 3dt and the barometer are two other examples on the SE.

It's being discussed here, as a rumor of course, on the upcoming iPhone 7 with different features.

Whether the barometer was left out off the SE as a cost item or product differentiation, only Apple knows, but it's true know what you are buying.

Apple doesn't exactly go out of their way to put in flashing lights. Here the SE is missing X X & X..
And normally i'd be ok with that.

The issue here is though that... now with no considerations or even a underlined acknowledgement about the barometer they are not just taking away from the single consumer they are also taking away from potential crowd based development.



They don't want to put the barometer in the SE? Fine.

Flash some big ass blinding warning signs about it and educate the public about what we have exasperatedly discussed here with regards to GPS aid, doppler shift, and teardown. Not to mention what Zhenya mentioned about crowdsourcing for weather models.

 

[I7guy]

Apple doesn't exactly go out of their way to put in flashing lights. Here the SE is missing X X & X..
And normally i'd be ok with that.

The issue here is though that... now with no considerations or even a acknowledgement about the barometer they are not just taking away from the single consumer they are also taking away from potential crowd based development.

There should be enough flagships for crowd based development, but it is what it is I suppose.

 

[C DM]

Apple doesn't exactly go out of their way to put in flashing lights. Here the SE is missing X X & X..
And normally i'd be ok with that.

The issue here is though that... now with no considerations or even a underlined acknowledgement about the barometer they are not just taking away from the single consumer they are also taking away from potential crowd based development.



They don't want to put the barometer in the SE? Fine.

Flash some big ass blinding warning signs about it and educate the public about what we have exasperatedly discussed here with regards to GPS aid, doppler shift, and teardown. Not to mention what Zhenya mentioned about crowdsourcing for weather models.

Tons and tons of phones even today that don't have this feature or that feature--we need some sort of "big ass blinding warning signs" about that? Seriously? Talk about completely unnecessary overbearing extreme and absolute hyperbole that is saturating so many replies and really undermining much of anything actually realistic and worthwhile that they might contain.

 

[AVN6293]

There should be enough flagships for crowd based development, but it is what it is I suppose.

Tons and tons of phones even today that don't have this feature or that feature--we need some sort of "big ass blinding warning signs" about that? Seriously? Talk about completely unnecessary overbearing extreme and absolute hyperbole that is saturating so many replies and really undermining much of anything actually realistic and worthwhile that they might contain.

I suppose having seen things on a different scale with the development side of things I have a much different POV than most. But from what I have seen i'm leaning towards the market being far better off with the best 'skim of the milk' complimenting sensors given far more considerations. Especially when it comes to *OVERALL* feature usage time. (battery life).

When you start looking deeply at things like initial burn-in period and environment teardown for those that use their course(fine) location services (GPS), you realize just how valuable little things like the barometer *really are*.

 

[I7guy]

I suppose having seen things on a different scale with the development side of things I have a much different POV than most. But from what I have seen i'm leaning towards the market being far better off with the best 'skim of the milk' complimenting sensors given far more considerations. Especially when it comes to *OVERALL* feature usage time. (battery life).

When you start looking deeply at things like burn-in and environment teardown for those that use their course(fine) location services (GPS), you realize just how valuable little things like the barometer *really are*.

Apple or any other manufacturer is not in the business for providing hardware for crowd-sourced applications.

 

[AVN6293]

Apple or any other manufacturer is not in the business for providing hardware for crowd-sourced applications.

I never said that they were. But they also don't have to work so hard to look like they are protecting against it either.
Traditionally apple has always been tight-lipped about features in upcoming phones, there's no denying that, but when they were first starting out they were in it to provide a valuable innovation to the masses. Lately it's been like 100% greed all the time, all day long. They are losing their way.

 

[C DM]

I never said that they were. But they also don't have to work so hard to look like they are protecting against it either.
Traditionally apple has always been tight-lipped about features in upcoming phones, there's no denying that, but when they were first starting out they were in it to provide a valuable innovation to the masses. Lately it's been like 100% greed all the time, all day long. They are losing their way.

Yeah, let's for example totally ignore the whole medical research aspect of things that Apple has recently been quite involved in--it fits all too well with all that crowdsourcing and very useful and valuable and innovative part, but really gets in the way of being upset about the lack of a barometer on a smaller featured and accordingly more affordable phone model.

 

[AVN6293]

Yeah, let's for example totally ignore the whole medical research aspect of things that Apple has recently been quite involved in--it fits all too well with all that crowdsourcing and very useful and valuable and innovative part, but really gets in the way of being upset about the lack of a barometer on a smaller featured and accordingly more affordable phone model.

you're tellin the wrong... .... guy.

 

[d-b]

We need to be talking about dopler shifting and environment teardown. NOT *just* elevation reading assist.

I think everyone here is very confused about how the barometer aids location services, and just how GPS receiver technology (client side) works.

Modern GPS cpu 's have always been far from rudimentary. In fact it's taken many years just to get to a 11mhz cpu clock cycle which has dramatically increased lock times in standalone clients.




If i could sum it up in a way that everyone can understand:


Currently there are 31 GPS satellites in orbit with a precision of about 5 meters. Currently there are also about 24 GNSS (GLONASS) satellites in orbit. Some of those satellites are spares.

At any one time or another there are about 10~14 satellites directly in a pingable path to a client traveling at hundreds of miles per hour.

You need line of site to 4 satellites at a time to get a approximate location and 7~8 to get a fixed location.

Think of the barometric pressure sensor as having a additional **2** extra satellites IN YOUR POCKET consistently there, not traveling at any high rate of speed (not that that matters much), always accurate & available no matter what the network load, interference, or down time is.


Or to put it another way. The earth is not flat!

Your whole reasoning is irrelevant since you have no lack of "visible" satellites when you are outdoors as in the scenario I commented upon (And it is "line of sight", and English is my third language. You should know better.)
[doublepost=1464798631][/doublepost]

A gyrometer measures rotation - not elevation.

http://www.gsmarena.com/glossary.php3?term=sensors

Accelerometer and gyroscope
Accelerometers in mobile phones are used to detect the orientation of the phone. The gyroscope, or gyro for short, adds an additional dimension to the information supplied by the accelerometer by tracking rotation or twist.

Barometer
And finally, you may see a device sporting a barometer in its specs sheet. Contrary to what you may suggest, it has nothing to do with weather. Instead, the barometer is there to help the GPS chip inside the device get a faster lock by instantly delivering altitude data.​

And therefore a gyro/accelerometer can be used for dead reckoning. If you know your location and suddenly loses all satellites (e.g., drive into a tunnel), the gyro and accelerometer can estimate, with good precision, how far into the tunnel you are.
[doublepost=1464800000][/doublepost]

Flash some big ass blinding warning signs about it and educate the public about what we have exasperatedly discussed here with regards to GPS aid, doppler shift, and teardown. Not to mention what Zhenya mentioned about crowdsourcing for weather models.

You have mentioned doppler shift in the context of barometers several times now. Would be very interesting if you could elaborate what that has to do with barometers. Or are you just dropping buzzwords?

 

[AVN6293]

Your whole reasoning is irrelevant since you have no lack of "visible" satellites when you are outdoors as in the scenario I commented upon (And it is "line of sight", and English is my third language. You should know better.)
[doublepost=1464798631][/doublepost]

Even without direct line of sight, pinging satellites in orbit is very possible. Especially with GNSS.

And therefore a gyro/accelerometer can be used for dead reckoning. If you know your location and suddenly loses all satellites (e.g., drive into a tunnel), the gyro and accelerometer can estimate, with good precision, how far into the tunnel you are.
[doublepost=1464800000][/doublepost]

Dead reckoning usually requires a point of origin signal of some kind.

You have mentioned doppler shift in the context of barometers several times now. Would be very interesting if you could elaborate what that has to do with barometers. Or are you just dropping buzzwords?

Doppler shift is used in the industry among developers, as is environment teardown and some of the other davinci methods first started by Nokia. Burn-in period isn't really a buzzword, it's thrown around a lot between old school developers. It just means location services are given a immediate initial idea of where your device *ISN'T* this gives pooled data a starting point and dramatically decreases the strain location services have on power usage (battery life). And while the same can be said for WiFi, Cellular and even bluetooth using our good old friend skyhook there is virtually no delay with barometer data and it works if you are biking up 5th avenue or hiking the serengeti.

I'd be happy to go over technical details with you at a later time. Maybe before the end of the week. These are what make the barometer so important. Thanks for your interest!

 

[iThat]

Even without direct line of sight, pinging satellites in orbit is very possible. Especially with GNSS.



Dead reckoning usually requires a point of origin signal of some kind.



Doppler shift is used in the industry among developers, as is environment teardown and some of the other davinci methods first started by Nokia. Burn-in period isn't really a buzzword, it's thrown around a lot between old school developers. It just means location services are given a immediate initial idea of where your device *ISN'T* this gives pooled data a starting point and dramatically decreases the strain location services have on power usage (battery life). And while the same can be said for WiFi, Cellular and even bluetooth using our good old friend skyhook there is virtually no delay with barometer data and it works if you are biking up 5th avenue or hiking the serengeti.

I'd be happy to go over technical details with you at a later time. Maybe before the end of the week. These are what make the barometer so important. Thanks for your interest!

Reading this has me very perplexed. It makes me a little worried now as well. I heard of the plans for the NEO900 and the upcoming plans for the NEO9000 will also include similar teardown sensor methods along with infrared going both ways. But now going back wasn't apple working on a totally new location technology using fine particles along with origin fixing? I swear it was right up there with something you would see straight out of startrek.
I think it was called astyr or something like that. I hope it was them and not some other company, if it wasn't i'm sorry. what a headtrip
i too was going to pickup a SE instead of upgrading my nexus 5, and i don't know if i should now and the 6 or 6s are just way to big

 

[AVN6293]

Reading this has me very perplexed. It makes me a little worried now as well. I heard of the plans for the NEO900 and the upcoming plans for the NEO9000 will also include similar teardown sensor methods along with infrared going both ways. But now going back wasn't apple working on a totally new location technology using fine particles along with origin fixing? I swear it was right up there with something you would see straight out of startrek.
I think it was called astyr or something like that. I hope it was them and not some other company, if it wasn't i'm sorry. what a headtrip
i too was going to pickup a SE instead of upgrading my nexus 5, and i don't know if i should now and the 6 or 6s are just way to big

Pretty sure astyr was only theoretical.

 

[d-b]

Your whole reasoning is irrelevant since you have no lack of "visible" satellites when you are outdoors as in the scenario I commented upon (And it is "line of sight", and English is my third language. You should know better.)

Even without direct line of sight, pinging satellites in orbit is very possible. Especially with GNSS.

So what are you arguing about? I said that you have plenty of visible satellites and you emphasize that by clarifying that GNSS doesn't even need line of sight. Your scenario is completely artificial.

Dead reckoning usually requires a point of origin signal of some kind.

Yes of course, and that would be the last time you had a good satellite connection. Don't you think the phone can log that information?

Doppler shift is used in the industry among developers, as is environment teardown and some of the other davinci methods first started by Nokia. Burn-in period isn't really a buzzword, it's thrown around a lot between old school developers. It just means location services are given a immediate initial idea of where your device *ISN'T* this gives pooled data a starting point and dramatically decreases the strain location services have on power usage (battery life). And while the same can be said for WiFi, Cellular and even bluetooth using our good old friend skyhook there is virtually no delay with barometer data and it works if you are biking up 5th avenue or hiking the serengeti.

I'd be happy to go over technical details with you at a later time. Maybe before the end of the week. These are what make the barometer so important. Thanks for your interest!

What are paragraph a response to? I asked about doppler shift and you start talking mumbo jumbo about things I didn't ask about. The conclusion is obvious, you are just dropping buzzwords you don't understand yourself.

 

[iThat]

So what are you arguing about? I said that you have plenty of visible satellites and you emphasize that by clarifying that GNSS doesn't even need line of sight. Your scenario is completely artificial.




Yes of course, and that would be the last time you had a good satellite connection. Don't you think the phone can log that information?




What are paragraph a response to? I asked about doppler shift and you start talking mumbo jumbo about things I didn't ask about. The conclusion is obvious, you are just dropping buzzwords you don't understand yourself.

IIRC DoplerShift isn't a buzzword d-b, it's a well known issue among developers that do work with fine location.
DoplerShift is something that happens when you are traveling at high speed. I don't know all the details myself but i do know its always been a big problem and also one of the reasons google started mining WiFi AP mac addresses a few years back.
And i think GNSS is a updated version of the GPS network we have in the usa which offers faster lock times with shorter visibility windows.

Pretty sure astyr was only theoretical.

Thats ashame i thought it was something they were actually serious about

 

[AVN6293]

So what are you arguing about? I said that you have plenty of visible satellites and you emphasize that by clarifying that GNSS doesn't even need line of sight. Your scenario is completely artificial.




Yes of course, and that would be the last time you had a good satellite connection. Don't you think the phone can log that information?




What are paragraph a response to? I asked about doppler shift and you start talking mumbo jumbo about things I didn't ask about. The conclusion is obvious, you are just dropping buzzwords you don't understand yourself.

yea i'm not really one to throw around buzz words. Doppler effect issues are well known.
I guess my technical know how is in a much different field than some here.
On another OT note I can't wait to see what the galileo network brings.

edit: Just want to underline what i've said from the very beginning. The barometer is a crucial linchpin and one apple either cavalierly underestimated or was more concerned about their bottom line.

 

[C DM]

yea i'm not really one to throw around buzz words. Doppler effect issues are well known.
I guess my technical know how is in a much different field than some here.
On another OT note I can't wait to see what the galileo network brings.

edit: Just want to underline what i've said from the very beginning. The barometer is a crucial linchpin and one apple either cavalierly underestimated or was more concerned about their bottom line.

Or basically one that the vast majority of typical users don't see as crucial (or really care much about at all, assuming they even know about it).

 

[QCassidy352]

Or basically one that the vast majority of typical users don't see as crucial (or really care much about at all, assuming they even know about it).

I'd never known any iPhone had a barometer until this thread appeared. Having used (many) iPhones without it, one with it (iPhone 6), and now another without it (SE), I can honestly say I haven't the slightest idea (this thread aside) what good it was doing me or what I'm apparently now missing out on.