iPhone VS Palm Pre

[robothero]

Well, I have a bb curve, and I find its multitasking of minimal use. I don't really know how RIM's implementation differs from Palm's though.

I have a Curve as well, and the biggest problem with RIM's multitasking is that pretty much everything multitasks. You need to actually tell the program to close (instead of just hitting the home or back button) if you want to clear it out of RAM, which can quickly bog down the device when you inconveniently have twitter, facebook, email, notes, address book, google maps, random game, etc. etc. all open at the same time. Really the only useful multitasking items are the browser, notes and google maps. Everything else should probably just close down on exit.

And like someone else had mentioned with "not being able to live without" their iPhone, after switching over to a smartphone a few years ago, I don't think I could survive without a full keyboard and access to my email and other alerts anymore. Hell, I hardly log into gmail/outlook anymore to actually read my mail, since it's all on my phone anyways.

 

[skwoytek]

Why? Because of the limited amount of RAM available to the device. Safari only reloads a page if it needed to clear RAM for another use.

Memory constraints is one thing I think will become apparent on the Pre.

It doesn't matter if you're multitasking (Pre) or switching between apps by closing and reopening (iPhone) - if the next application used needs more memory, it's got to take it from another app or run sluggishly.

So if Safari is having to reload pages because of other applications needing the memory, the Pre's browser would have given up that memory as well under the same circumstances.

As a side, I don't think it's so much that Safari has to load the HTML as that Safari had to dump the rendering of the webpage which is in memory and allows the smooth zooming and panning which makes it's mobile browser so popular. The choice to reload the HTML when redrawing is simply that, a choice made by Apple.

 

[marold280]

does the pre have a horrendous battery life with all these background apps ?

 

[skwoytek]

does the pre have a horrendous battery life with all these background apps ?

Nobody knows.

Either Palm is holding it as a last minute surprise of how good it is.

Or they're holding it until the last minute to build all the positive press they can before they have to announce how bad it is.

 

[PatrickRS]

Maybe yes and maybe no. I really can't see the difference between multitasking and what I described (very fast app open/close with state preservation) except in a pretty limited number of apps (e.g. pandora). You say I'd notice the difference, but you haven't explained what that difference is. Can you elaborate?

The thing is, you put a new tool into a smart developer's hands and more often than not they innovate and surprise you with something you never thought about. That's why I hate giving a list of examples that I can think of today (not to mention how you always get the fanboys telling you "you don't need it" each time you try to point out something that's missing).

Anyhow... with that caveat, all of these things could happen if multi-tasking / background processing was opened up to developers in the SDK:

1. Music apps (like Internet Radio) that continue to play after an app switch.
2. GPS trackers that continue to log your waypoints after an app switch.
3. Profile apps which automatically switch your phone's configuration, in the background, based on certain events (time of day, location, etc).
4. Phone call filters which help eliminate spam calls / SMS, without interrupting whatever else you were doing at the time.
5. Refresh of app databases (PIM sync, weather sync, etc) in the background, so your apps pretty much always display up-to-date information.

I don't understand Apple's notification scheme yet, so I dunno how many of these scenarios will be covered by it. But, frankly, I don't care. I want developers to have access to this powerful tool to potentially surprise us with things we haven't thought up yet.

A couple other things to consider about your alternative of better state-preserving applications:

1. Dunno if you've ever owned a PalmOS device, but that platform was very, very good when it came to the kind of state-preserving apps you endorse. Yet Palm enthusiast forums were replete with people nashing their teeth over the lack of multi-tasking. The WinMo folks, in particular, trumpeted this as a large advantage for their platform over PalmOS (long before there ever was an iPhone).
2. Apple itself routinely writes apps which take advantage of multitasking (not just state-preservation), yet they deny the technologies to devs through the SDK. If it wasn't all that useful, why do they feel the need to use it themselves?

 

[rugox]

There's only one absolute point why I would choose an iphone over a pre anyday. THE PRE IS DAMN UGLY. Jesus whenever I see a person using a phone made from Palm it just makes me throw up. And the new palm pre looks DAMN UGLY AGAIN.

Technology wise, both phones will have pros and cons but both phones will satisfy the users in different ways.

iPhone > Palm Pre

 

[gloss]

There's only one absolute point why I would choose an iphone over a pre anyday. THE PRE IS DAMN UGLY. Jesus whenever I see a person using a phone made from Palm it just makes me throw up. And the new palm pre looks DAMN UGLY AGAIN.

I thought it was kind of sexy, but I guess I am a contrarian.

 

[skwoytek]

2. GPS trackers that continue to log your waypoints after an app switch.

Knowing that Apple will allow turn by turn directions, I wonder how they will allow an incoming phone call to be answered via Bluetooth while still having the GPS app functioning.

I'm hoping as I mentioned before that Apple at the least allows an interrupted app to stay loaded while the user answers a call or an SMS. As long as you don't exit the app by pressing home, the App keeps running.

They've got to be doing something different in order to allow useful turn by turn.

I think my biggest objection to this whole "but pre multitasks" argument is that it's not a deficency of the iPhone OS, it's a choice that can be changed anytime.

 

[aristobrat]

I think my biggest objection to this whole "but pre multitasks" argument is that it's not a deficency of the iPhone OS, it's a choice that can be changed anytime.

Knowing that Apple's initial OS design for the iPhone never included 3rd-party native applications (remember their insistence on web-apps as the only 3rd-party source of applications), much less 3rd-party native applications that ran in the background, I too think it's a "choice", but it's a choice that was made before the iPhone 1.0 launch, and I'm not sure how easy of a choice it is to undo.

Having said that, they need to get off their butts and find an Apple-approved way of letting 3rd-party background apps run, while maintaining the 'iPhone experience'. (i.e. don't let crap in the background bog up the performance of the phone) No clue how they'd do that (RIM and Microsoft have yet to find ways to prevent that from happening), but hopefully Apple can.

 

[skwoytek]

Knowing that Apple's initial OS design for the iPhone never included 3rd-party native applications (remember their insistence on web-apps as the only 3rd-party source of applications), much less 3rd-party native applications that ran in the background, I too think it's a "choice", but it's a choice that was made before the iPhone 1.0 launch, and I'm not sure how easy of a choice it is to undo.

Actually, during the introduction Steve Jobs said the iPhone OS was a mutlitasking OS. I don't have a quote but I think he equated it to the desktop OS X. Because there were no 3rd party apps at launch, there was no need to announce specifics on system operation, but several apps have been multitasking since day one, and these have been repeatedly listed.

A system for managing 3rd party apps may not be in place. But the ability to keep one running clearly is. And according to Apple, they've tested background apps to determine their effects on the devices performance. Oh, and jailbreakers do it all the time - though some complain of performance issues - hmmmmmm...

 

[kdarling]

I really don't want to start an argument with you, but the problem he "lied" about is not real. Thats the point.

He clearly made a mistake, yes. But I don't think that warrants calling him a liar or a troll. A simple "that's not how it works" would've been fine. You might easily be in a similar situation one day.

A way to go "back" is not the proper paradigm. In an application, going back makes sense, but a device wide "back" would be clumsy.

I've never found that to be true. Many WM devices have a universal GoBack key and you get very used to it...

Just as people quickly get used to the iPhone paradigm that you're supposed to use the touchscreen to go back until you reach the "top" of an app, and then must switch to a physical button to finish the sequence. (It still confuses the heck out of my wife.)

All the iPhone needs is better state retention and faster application opening.

That's one way of handling it. It's not battery or flash friendly, though, saving/reloading to/from storage all the time.

The concept may be better for transitioning between apps, but we will have to see how it works in practice. Believe it or not, there are trade offs. The card concept reduces the screen space available to the app and adds more visual distraction.

In what way does it reduce the screen space? Are you confused by the multiple card view you see during selection, versus when the card comes forward and takes over the screen? It's like when iPhone Safari shows multiple pages, vs when you choose one. Little -> big.

The gesture area is less intuitive and gives less visual feedback to its current purpose.

You do know that Apple included the idea of an optional gesture area in their huge iPhone patent application?

 

[dejo]

Knowing that Apple's initial OS design for the iPhone never included 3rd-party native applications...

How do we know this? Perhaps the design did include it but they needed more time to get the rest of their ducks (SDK, iTunes Connect, App Store, etc.) in a row.

 

[ilp]

Software is where it's ALL at.

Software is what kills all the other iPhone competitors.

Based on the first post, I agree that Notifications sound like they are done much better in Pre. In fact, I can't believe that Apple would make a notification system that interrupts what you're doing with a dialog box that you have to dismiss! That is very un-Apple. Someone is brain farting. Maybe Steve Jobs is not around to put some smack down, but, hell, he needs to be. I can't imagine getting interrupted while using my phone by notifications from AIM applications.

Multitasking is fine, but I am skeptical about the "Card" thing. Why should I care about what applications are open right now on my phone? When I use the iPhone, I often forget that the concept of a running application exists. I just use my apps. Look, even Windows 7 now has an applications "dock" that keeps an app on it always, whether it's open or closed.

Judging by the looks of it though, it seems that someone at Palm is actually paying as much attention to true usability (I'm not talking about pictures, prettiness of the UI, colors, or anything--I'm talking about the day-to-day interactions with the device) as Apple. And that's only a good thing for us and the industry!

 

[Compile 'em all]

How do we know this? Perhaps the design did include it but they needed more time to get the rest of their ducks (SDK, iTunes Connect, App Store, etc.) in a row.

it DID include it.

hint: Jailbreak apps from installer.

 

[kdarling]

Knowing that Apple will allow turn by turn directions, I wonder how they will allow an incoming phone call to be answered via Bluetooth while still having the GPS app functioning.

Hmm. Some confusion here. Got a link?

I don't recall Apple saying they would allow TBT apps that continue during a call or other operation.

They did say there were including some APIs to make it easier for casual programmers to write direction based apps. That's all.

I think my biggest objection to this whole "but pre multitasks" argument is that it's not a deficency of the iPhone OS, it's a choice that can be changed anytime.

I agree with the other poster that Apple is unlikely to change their current paradigm. They tend towards keeping things as simple as possible, for the user and for their own OS programmers.

(No removable storage. No user file system access. No multitasking. Little customization. No third party apps outside their control. It's all about easiness.)

 

[thejadedmonkey]

There's only one absolute point why I would choose an iphone over a pre anyday. THE PRE IS DAMN UGLY. Jesus whenever I see a person using a phone made from Palm it just makes me throw up. And the new palm pre looks DAMN UGLY AGAIN.

Technology wise, both phones will have pros and cons but both phones will satisfy the users in different ways.

iPhone > Palm Pre

And I think the iPhone is damn ugly.

 

[bjquach]

I don't get Palm and Sprint. If the rumors are true and shortages are expected, why don't you do what Apple does and put many Pre ads up on TV and over hype the device?

 

[skwoytek]

Hmm. Some confusion here. Got a link?

I don't recall Apple saying they would allow TBT apps that continue during a call or other operation.

They did say there were including some APIs to make it easier for casual programmers to write direction based apps. That's all.

No link.

I'm saying that if the big name Navigation software developers expect their apps to be useful Apple will have to make changes. Imagine running Nav and having a popup stuck on the screen from SMS which you have to release. Or a phone call that closes your Nav app after you answer via Bluetooth.

I'm not saying Apple will make changes. I'm saying they need to or the Nav apps will all be jokes unless you go into airplane mode - in that case I may as well get a stand alone GPS.

 

[QCassidy352]

Anyhow... with that caveat, all of these things could happen if multi-tasking / background processing was opened up to developers in the SDK:

1. Music apps (like Internet Radio) that continue to play after an app switch.
2. GPS trackers that continue to log your waypoints after an app switch.
3. Profile apps which automatically switch your phone's configuration, in the background, based on certain events (time of day, location, etc).
4. Phone call filters which help eliminate spam calls / SMS, without interrupting whatever else you were doing at the time.
5. Refresh of app databases (PIM sync, weather sync, etc) in the background, so your apps pretty much always display up-to-date information.

Thanks for the thoughtful and reasonable reply. I hadn't thought of some of those things. I can't see myself using any but 1 and 2, but you're certainly right that at least some people would find all of them useful.

1. Dunno if you've ever owned a PalmOS device, but that platform was very, very good when it came to the kind of state-preserving apps you endorse. Yet Palm enthusiast forums were replete with people nashing their teeth over the lack of multi-tasking. The WinMo folks, in particular, trumpeted this as a large advantage for their platform over PalmOS (long before there ever was an iPhone).

I've only ever used a Palm OS device very briefly, and never used a WinMo device, so I really can't comment except to say that I still don't see multitasking as a terribly big deal. Nice, yes, but a game changer? Not really. The fact that other people got all worked up about it proves that *someone* cares, but it doesn't prove why I should.

2. Apple itself routinely writes apps which take advantage of multitasking (not just state-preservation), yet they deny the technologies to devs through the SDK. If it wasn't all that useful, why do they feel the need to use it themselves?

I can only assume that apple is willing to trade some performance/battery life for multitasking when it comes to the core functions of the iphone (ipod, phone, email) but not in other cases. Now, I'm guessing your response will be "why don't they let me decide what apps are important enough to warrant that hit to performance and battery life rather than telling me what's important," and that's a reasonable point.

But I think the answer is that Apple has an interest in putting out a product that not only works well but is perceived as working well. So say they allow you to multitask, and it kills battery and performance. Reviews, tech blogs, and these forums would be *filled* with people screaming about how the iphone is laggy, unresponsive, and only lasts half a day. Now, you might say, "yes, but those people chose that trade off. they're still able to get the full performance and battery life of no-multitasking if they just don't use it." And that's true, but from Apple's perspective, it's also beside the point.

Believe me, it's much better press to have a smooth-running, long-lasting iphone without multitasking than an iphone that's billed as being able to multitask but falls down in the implimentation. Yeah, it sucks for those of us who are savvy enough to understand the trade-offs and not whine when performance and battery life drop, but it's very much Apple's way not to roll something out until they can do it in a way that their average customer can use easily and happily.

 

[kdarling]

So if Safari is having to reload pages because of other applications needing the memory, the Pre's browser would have given up that memory as well under the same circumstances.

I believe it's all about where the cache is (or isn't). Corrections welcome.

Safari holds pages in its main shared RAM. Give up the RAM to run another app, and the page info disappears.

So Safari has to reload pages because Apple decided not to risk using their limited write cycle flash memory for a constantly changing web cache.

Other devices, not using the same inexpensive MLC memory, use their flash for cache.

 

[skwoytek]

I agree with the other poster that Apple is unlikely to change their current paradigm. They tend towards keeping things as simple as possible, for the user and for their own OS programmers.

(No removable storage. No user file system access. No multitasking. Little customization. No third party apps outside their control. It's all about easiness.)

Exactly. The iPhone is Apple's idea of the right feature, UI, and performance mixture. Other companies target different users with different features. Apple built a profitable device with some of the highest user satisfaction ratings. Why cater to the small minority who read engadget and Mac Rumors or to the small population who could never operate a smartphone - Apple caters to the vast majority of people who want a reliable and useful portable computing device.

 

[brent0saurus]

The concept may be better for transitioning between apps, but we will have to see how it works in practice. Believe it or not, there are trade offs. The card concept reduces the screen space available to the app and adds more visual distraction. Which is important on such a small screen. Especially, since the Pre screen is even smaller than the iPhone. The gesture area is less intuitive and gives less visual feedback to its current purpose. These may very well be acceptable trade offs, but it is not unequivocal.

How do the cards reduce screen space? They are only small when flipping through them so you can see the other apps to the left and right. And the gesture area gives you less visual feedback? Things slide left and right just like the iPhone and but you even get the left and right hand gesture to see. And on top of that white LEDs trail behind your gesture. That's more visual queues than the iPhone gives you.
If or when Apple follows some of Palm's new features you'll be the first one to be saying how great they are.
And I typed all of this out on my iPod touch. I love apple but I'm not afraid to admit it when another company has a good idea.
But I do agree; we'll have to see how it works in practice.

 

[Mikey B]

Hmm. Some confusion here. Got a link?

I don't recall Apple saying they would allow TBT apps that continue during a call or other operation.

They did say there were including some APIs to make it easier for casual programmers to write direction based apps. That's all.



I agree with the other poster that Apple is unlikely to change their current paradigm. They tend towards keeping things as simple as possible, for the user and for their own OS programmers.

(No removable storage. No user file system access. No multitasking. Little customization. No third party apps outside their control. It's all about easiness.)

Apple absolutely announced turn by turn directions at the 3.0 event, not just API's to make direction based apps easier. They are not making such an app but they are providing the APIs in the new SDK so that devs can write a turn by turn app. They also have to license Google Maps themselves or another mapping service.

 

[kdarling]

Apple absolutely announced turn by turn directions at the 3.0 event, not just API's to make direction based apps easier. They are not making such an app but they are providing the APIs in the new SDK so that devs can write a turn by turn app.

Apple simply announced helper APIs for developers who would otherwise have to write code to figure out where you're headed, what speed, etc.

TomTom, Garmin and so forth, don't need such an API, as they have their own libraries to figure those facts out from the raw GPS data.

Apple never said they would allow a third party's background navigation task to continue during a call, as other phones' TBT apps do.

 

[Palm Pimp]

Check out the info on palmgoon.com and http://www.youtube.com/user/PalmPreForumDotOrg

The iPhone is in for rough times ahead.