iPhone without Contract in Germany? - 999€ UPDATE: Confirmed + 600€ for an unlock!

[samab]

This is crazy. For one, does anyone know who actually set the price? Does anyone know the reasons why that person/company set that price?

No, it is not crazy.

The only crazy thing is the European "anti-trust" laws and various other "consumer protection" laws.

This is like Europe "forcing" Microsoft to sell a windows xp version without the media player --- a completely useless legal exercise. How many units of that crippled xp version were sold? A few hundred.

 

[TonyHoyle]

If Apple had let the phone be unlocked from the start, no telecom would of implemented the necessary changes for the various innovative new features. Nothing would of been so cool, and I'd imagine some features might make it to other phones down the track.

lol. What changes. Make O2 install a slower network? The massively overhyped visual voicemail app?

Other phones already *have* all the features of the iphone, and more. They have done for years. Not in as pretty a package (apple are good at making things look pretty) but they've been there.

Other phones need to catch up on the UI stakes - install larger screens, for a start. but the basic techincal features are already there.

 

[Stella]

No, it is not crazy.

The only crazy thing is the European "anti-trust" laws and various other "consumer protection" laws.

Sure, they suck if you like businesses screwing over its customers, price fixing and anything else they can get away with.

 

[samab]

Nah, I don't think there will be meritorious lawsuit, as this is simple supply and demand economics at play. If you really want a new one, you pay the price. To think that one can sue because he/she does not like the price of a product is complete nonsense.

Again the simple law and demand effect will work to lower the price over time.

If you sue over this issue, you really need some help.

I agree with you 100%.

If some French supermarket managed to sell out all their grey market hacked/unlocked iphones without a valid apple warranty for 999 euros --- then the carriers can charge something like 1200-1300 euro for a properly unlocked iphone with a valid apple warranty.

 

[TonyHoyle]

No, it is not crazy.

The only crazy thing is the European "anti-trust" laws and various other "consumer protection" laws.

Another american I presume.

Contrary to what americans seem to believe companies do *not* have an automatic right to profit if that harms consumers or society in general. Regulations are absolutely necessary to keep them in line.

 

[EagerDragon]

The iphones wifi handling is good enough that it really doesn't matter.. you're likely to have wifi at your workplace and at home anyway.

Lucky you, we are not allowed to connect at work to the wired or wireless network unless it is a company device.

Large corporations are paranoid, but I do not blame them, I am more paranoid than they are.

 

[Mulyahnto]

Sure, they suck if you like businesses screwing over its customers, price fixing and anything else they can get away with.

How is screwing over its customers?

 

[TonyHoyle]

I agree with you 100%.

If some French supermarket managed to sell out all their grey market hacked/unlocked iphones without a valid apple warranty for 999 euros --- then the carriers can charge something like 1200-1300 euro for a properly unlocked iphone with a valid apple warranty.

It wouldn't be a grey market if they were sourced in europe, and apple warranties would be valid. They'd have a hard time saying that because the phone was unlocked you can't replace it if the audio connector broke for example.

I really hope someone manages to source a good supply of iphones and starts reselling them unlocked. It's hard to do though because apple are restricting supply so much already.

 

[samab]

Sure, they suck if you like businesses screwing over its customers, price fixing and anything else they can get away with.

But if you look at the bottom line. The American iphone is cheaper, the American iphone monthly plan is cheaper and AT&T/T-Mobile both give out unlocking codes (except the iphone of course) after 90 days for free.

Then you look at the other side of the Atlantic. The European iphone is more expensive, the European iphone monthly plan is more expensive and various European "consumer protection" laws across various European countries allow European carriers to charge money for unlocking codes.

 

[OS X Dude]

999 euros! you won't see penny one off me you slaaag! If you've seen Mighty Boosh, you'll get that lol.

999 hard-earned euros, standing on a wall,
999 hard-earned euros, standing on a wall,
And if one German guy, should buy Apple iPhone,
There'll be no more euros, standing on the wall!



Lol

 

[Mulyahnto]

Another american I presume.

Contrary to what americans seem to believe companies do *not* have an automatic right to profit if that harms consumers or society in general. Regulations are absolutely necessary to keep them in line.

Yes, Antitrust regulations are absolutely necessary. However is far from becoming a *trust*. There are plenty of choices out there as far as cell phones are concerned.

 

[Stella]

How is screwing over its customers?

Did I mention Apple? No I didn't.

Businesses given a chance would freely screw its customers. A free market would not prevent this: there's plenty of evidence in history to back this up.

But if you look at the bottom line. The American iphone is cheaper, the American iphone monthly plan is cheaper and AT&T/T-Mobile both give out unlocking codes (except the iphone of course) after 90 days for free.

Then you look at the other side of the Atlantic. The European iphone is more expensive, the European iphone monthly plan is more expensive and various European "consumer protection" laws across various European countries allow European carriers to charge money for unlocking codes.

I wasn't referencing Apple but all businesses in general.

 

[wackattack]

This is just ridiculous and shows Apple doesn't know a lot about europe. Most 3G phones in europe are sold for €499 and Apple wants to sell a 2G phone for double the price? I'm glad I chose the iPod Touch don't really miss a phone on it anyway. In my country Apple can't sell a phone with a contract so they will try to charge us also 999 € well only a few will pay this ridiculous amount and for the first time in Apple history will not have a coolness factor but an aura of stupidity surrounding them. Even a 16GB iPod touch and a new 3G phone cost together less than an iPhone that has only 8GB and no 3G!

Some damage control should take in effect asap!

 

[samab]

Another american I presume.

Contrary to what americans seem to believe companies do *not* have an automatic right to profit if that harms consumers or society in general. Regulations are absolutely necessary to keep them in line.

No --- the difference in American and European "anti-trust" laws and cosumer protection laws is that the American system actual look at the consumer side. The European system looks at protecting European business interest.

The General Electric/Honeywell and Boeing/McDonnell merger deals --- had shown where the priorities of the anti-trust authorities in both sides of the Atlantic.

 

[sjo]

But if you look at the bottom line. The American iphone is cheaper, the American iphone monthly plan is cheaper and AT&T/T-Mobile both give out unlocking codes (except the iphone of course) after 90 days for free.

Then you look at the other side of the Atlantic. The European iphone is more expensive, the European iphone monthly plan is more expensive and various European "consumer protection" laws across various European countries allow European carriers to charge money for unlocking codes.

and no-one buys iphone in europe. funny coincidence.

 

[ogee]

what i'm interested in is if this is really apple's suggested price or just the price t-mobile picked to keep their "loss" low, for not selling the 18 months contract…

I would suspect that the apple /t-Mobile contract specifies a minimum value t-Mobile has to give to apple for each phone over the 24 month period. I suspect that it is 600 Euro or there about.

Consider this, reportedly T-mobile has to pay 30% of the revenue generated by a customer. Lets say user 1 user the iPhone mostly as a iPod and the occasional wifi usage and 1 call per day. That user doesnt generate musc income, just the 50 euro/month. User 2 makes 100 calls per day is heavy internet sms and wifi user. He will exceed the limits a of the 90 euro plan and pays extra. Lots of income. I am sure that the Apple/t-Mobile contract makes an average usage.

The 600 euro premium happens to be about 30% of the mid priced contract over 24 months. i.e. What T-Mobile most likely has to pay Apple, so Apple is happy they have their income, T-Mobile is happy as they dont make a loss. For them its like the customer never came through the door.

 

[samh004]

lol. What changes. Make O2 install a slower network? The massively overhyped visual voicemail app?

Other phones already *have* all the features of the iphone, and more. They have done for years. Not in as pretty a package (apple are good at making things look pretty) but they've been there.

Other phones need to catch up on the UI stakes - install larger screens, for a start. but the basic techincal features are already there.

Admittedly I only had the visual voicemail in my head, not sure what other features required a back-end, but that alone, even though it's over-hyped, is a big change.

I'm not sure what it's like where you are but in any country I've used a phone in, voicemail has cost me money to ring up a number and slowly go through the messages, before finding the one I want... at expense. Now I haven't used an iPhone, but I assume the charges have been dropped, and if they haven't, they are at least less than what they used to be because you don't have to listen to five messages before the important one you wanted to hear.

You seem to be a "hater". Your first reaction to my post was "install a slower network", come on, get over yourself. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Did Nokia's first mobile have 3G, or even EDGE ? Of course it wasn't around back then but that's not really the point.

It's their first mobile, and you have to ask yourself whether you'd like an EDGE capable iPhone with a 5+ hour battery or a 3G capable one with 3+ hours. Apple will inevitably release something better... now lets get this thread back on topic.

Regarding my initial post, if you don't think there were any changes made to accommodate some of Apple's features (and don't pretend EDGE is a feature) then you need to explore the world a bit better.

 

[samab]

I wasn't referencing Apple but all businesses in general.

Then you should read up on the General Electric/Honeywell or Boeing/McDonnell merger deals a few years back --- and see how American and European anti-trust authorities differed in their priorities.

 

[EagerDragon]

This brings up some interesting issues about unlocking fees for other countries.

While I don't expect unlocked iPhones to be sold in the UK at similar prices to those in Germany, surely this suggests that Apple/O2 will have to provide an unlock code to those who request it, at the end of the 18 month agreement that new customers in the UK have signed up to.

As I understand it, Ofcom rules state that providers must provide an unlock code for locked phones once the minimum term of a contract is up, but may charge a nominal fee (usually in the range of £15 - £30).

If T-Mobile are having to play ball with the laws in Germany (as they should) surely O2 will have to do the same regarding unlock codes, when this situation arises in the UK. As long as they don't try and charge £600 of course!

By the time the 18 months are up, the new iPhone (3G) will be out and it will cost significantly more in countries where Apple will be required to unlock, the difference will be split depending on having to unlock at sale time or 18-24 months later. Expect different pricing by country and expect changes if the country changes the rules of the game.

Apple is set to make a very fat profit on each phone it sells or sell none. There will be some price reductions but they won't add up to much for the next 3 years.

 

[Consultant]

lol. What changes. Make O2 install a slower network? The massively overhyped visual voicemail app?

Other phones already *have* all the features of the iphone, and more. They have done for years. Not in as pretty a package (apple are good at making things look pretty) but they've been there.

Other phones need to catch up on the UI stakes - install larger screens, for a start. but the basic techincal features are already there.

That's as false as saying a yugo has 4 wheels, so installing a larger windshield will make it more like a Austin Martin.

Usability on other phones are piss poor. The features might be there, but they are usually quirky and difficult to use even if you are reading the manual.

People who don't use Apple products thinks it's just the packaging... LOL...

It's not just the "pretty package", it's the whole experience, which to most people, is superior...

So they want to charge $??? for unlocked phone.
* that's within their right
* it's similar in price to other phones that aren't as usable
* hackers will get a hold of it, hopefully making hacking iPhones easier

 

[EagerDragon]

I hope so;
this is ridiculous to charge that amount for an unlocked iphone. There are free tools available for unlocking the iphone at the moment, once hackers have the official unlocked iphone I’m sure it won't take long for them to figure out what has been changed and duplicate it again on current 'locked' phones... imagine charring $600 euros’ to get your iphone unlocked after you've already bought it which was expensive enough to begin with.
I hope the final outcome of this is that Free tools become available for everyone to unlock their iphone for free and choose which ever carrier they desire and that future apple updates don't brick them but even considering the updates for a second, how will apple distinguished between officially unlocked iphones and those that are hacked once hackers can duplicate the unlocking process done by apple....
like someone said previously ... I too smell freedom on the horizon for the iphone.

Those free or for a price unlocking tools may do you no good in some cases.

Depending on the laws of the particular country, Apple maybe able have the cell operators refuse service (at the network level) to all hacked phones. So your iPhone may stop working all of a suddent with the exception of 911 type calls or equivalent.

Apple is playing hard ball, wait until they take off their gloves, it will hurt more.

 

[MadWhack]

I think most of you are missing the point. Apple doesn't want ANYONE to buy an unlocked phone, that is all. Everything else reflects that underlining assumption.

Think about it.

 

[TonyHoyle]

Yes, Antitrust regulations are absolutely necessary. However is far from becoming a *trust*. There are plenty of choices out there as far as cell phones are concerned.

That market was formed by having a regulatory framework (well the framework grew at about the same time so it's arguable both ways). The choice we have, the freedom to keep the same number when changing providers, the freedom to change providers in the first place, the fact that all providers use the same compatible SIM... all are not profitable to the companies and they have to be nudged a bit to make them do it.

Other things like the absolute right to back out of a contract with no penalty within 14 days were made because of the predatory practices of salesmen (I think at the time double glazing salesmen). The 6 month reversed burden of proof (where the retailer must prove that a fault didn't exist at manufacture rather than you prove that you didn't cause it) is a direct result of sharp practices by retailers saying things like 'no refunds' at point of sale.

These laws don't form in a vacuum.. they solve a problem. The problem is if apple are allowed to get away with this kind of thing then it's only a matter of time before nokia, motorola, etc. do the same.. and competition goes out of the window. Suddenly if you want a phone you have to pick a provider that stocks it rather than all providers stocking the same phones.. suddenly instead of fierce competition for the best tariff (to the point where some users get stupid deals like free phone and no line rental.. just to keep them) they can lock you in completely. That isn't good. In the absence of effective competition prices increase.. and the consumer loses.

An example of too little regulation is what happened to the satellite TV industry in the UK. Sky were allowed not only to control the broadcasts but the hardware and the encryption. European law requiring them to release a CAM was ignored. They gained an absolute lock on the UK satellite TV market - even the BBC have not managed to gain any traction selling an alternative platform. As a reault the market has stagnated.. the boxes haven't change significantly in about 7 years (barring the addition of an HD box which of course costs a large premium (inc. an HD sub and an extra sub to activate 'advanced' features like the ability to pause live TV.. and is 100% controlled by Sky again).

 

[phytonix]

These officially unlocked iPhones might be what Vodafone want. Because hackers can then figure out the "legimate" way of unlocking.
Then, you can pay normal price for the phone, and use it on any network.

 

[TonyHoyle]

It's their first mobile, and you have to ask yourself whether you'd like an EDGE capable iPhone with a 5+ hour battery or a 3G capable one with 3+ hours. Apple will inevitably release something better... now lets get this thread back on topic.

I already have a 3G phone that regularly lasts 2-3 *days*.

Just because the iphone has a piss poor battery life doesn't mean that every phone has to.