Magnesium compounds can make great housings, for sure, but aluminum has superior thermal characteristics; hence the popularity of aluminum PC cases IE Lian Li, etc.. Carbon fiber is great, but I doubt you'd be able to do the unibody thing.
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Is Apple ripping us off with the Macbook Pro?
- Thread starter wikoogle
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Magnesium compounds can make great housings, for sure, but aluminum has superior thermal characteristics; hence the popularity of aluminum PC cases IE Lian Li, etc.. Carbon fiber is great, but I doubt you'd be able to do the unibody thing.
I think apple laptops are worthwhile due to a combination of factors. Sure plenty of things can be beaten individually but when looked at as a whole I personally see them as unbeatable especially the unibody models.
I suspect that since Apple controls the Hardware and the Software the prevention of someone running an application on the iPad is not the same as a PC that runs windows, an for which Microsoft does not control the hardware.
Why can't use develop a web browser for the Kindle rather than used the basic browser? .. It is part of the expecatation upon purchase that there are limits.
In the case of the MS Antitrist suite, they had an open platform that was suposed to host all types of software and then after the fact they integrated their application into the OS.
Apple is not doing the same thing as MS, since they offer no expectation of anyhing other than what is included and set the expectation before you purchase the item that there are limits.
It is also not like MS, in that the item is a device, more like a phone and the hardware is Apple's not a third party where MS was using its influence to get people to NOT install other browsers.
Apple controls the hardware, and sets the expectation and since that have both there is no advantanage or influence towards the thirds party selling the hardware.
Sony is not the only other. DELL Adamo and HP Envy are great laptops (not to mention their business models). And yes, Sony being a World leader in design and manufacture of miniature devices for decades, plus VAIO Z manufactured in Japan, this obviously bits Apple design and Chinese manufacturing.
You do not need unibody unless you use aluminum. Aluminum is soft. To compensate for that you need to build unibody or it'll simply collapse. No such problems with carbon fiber or magnesium alloy. Also it's one thing to have a hot aluminum desktop case but having a hot laptop is not really such great idea.
Again, Sony Z cases are lighter than Unibody and that's what you want from a mobile case. You need it to be structurally sound and light. Fiber carbon gives you that.
I suspect that Apple advertising is a big part of the whole package
Adamo, yes, but every review of the Envy 15 has mentioned it looks and feels cheap.
I like Lenovo.
And as far as Apple ripping us off, that has to do with each persons own opinion. For me, its worth the high price, for a lot of people, it's not.
If you do not like ENvy, you can aways upgrade to HP Elitebook
Here is what laptopmag had to say about Elitebook 8730W (and it's not the latest model): "The 2.93-GHz Intel Core 2 Duo T9800 and 4GB of RAM powered the 8730w to a PCMark Vantage score of 4,913, which is almost 1,400 points above the category average. The ThinkPad W700, which costs more than an additional $500, scored nearly the same: 4,918. Meanwhile, the 17-inch MacBook Pro, which is also aimed at creative professionals, scored just 3,745 when we ran PCMark Vantage in Boot Camp."And it has a better screen than MacBook Pro too.
Now if you get the latest Elitebook (8540w), you'll get i7 processor, USB 3. This thing will destroy MacBook Pro in all benchmarks (except for battery lie)
If you do not like ENvy, you can aways upgrade to HP Elitebook
And it has a better screen than MacBook Pro too.
Now if you get the latest Elitebook (8540w), you'll get i7 processor, USB 3. This thing will destroy MacBook Pro in all benchmarks (except for battery lie)
Agreed. It's a bit unfair to compare the MBP to the Envy, which is merely a mid-range model. HP's professional laptops are the Elitebooks.
Umm, but Apple had a non-unibody aluminum case for a while? As far as do you need it or not, I've never extensively used a magnesium laptop, but having had a number of plastic laptops, I can say the sturdiness is noticed.
While the hot laptop thing isn't entirely great, I'll say that there are PLENTY of non-aluminum laptops that have had the same problem. Point is that if the heat spreads to a larger surface area and volume, it'll dissipate faster and the overall temp. will be lower. This is a good thing and lets the envelope be pushed a little farther.
I'm not saying aluminum is the *best*, but how many manufacturers out there are using better materials consistently?
This benefit is insignificant unless the heat source is thermally coupled to the case. There are very few cases that do this; see Zalman TNN-300 for an example.
That said, I prefer unibody aluminum construction for durability.
If you do not like ENvy, you can aways upgrade to HP Elitebook
And it has a better screen than MacBook Pro too.
Now if you get the latest Elitebook (8540w), you'll get i7 processor, USB 3. This thing will destroy MacBook Pro in all benchmarks (except for battery lie)
Well, I guess you're getting the latest Elitebook. I hope you don't get the new MBP and then start complaining about what it doesn't have, when you so clearly state that there is a superior laptop on the market. Good luck.
For the most part, the specs and benchmarks just plain are not that important. Sure, it's got some impact on games, but do you type any faster on your word processor? Does Facebook come up any faster?
Need proof, look at the success of VMWare. They are making a killing out there because for the most part, the actual capacity of most computer systems is grossly underutilized. And its not just a Windows thing either. I routinely look at detailed performance data for many Solaris systems for a number of customers and for the most part, guess what?
Part of the problem is that there is a lot of badly written software out there. And while faster systems will help that a bit, efficient code does a lot more. You can only throw so much hardware at bad code.
And while folks are going on about the new CPU's they're completely missing the slowest subsystem, hard disks. And until SSD's become mainstream, your CPU will still be idling along waiting for data from the disk.
We saw it all with the race for the fastest CPU. Oh, well, now they figured out that speed isn't everything and so they're shoving more cores in.
I would argue in fact, that I'm much more impressed with a smooth running, productive system than I am with specs. And, as long as Apple continues to engineer a good system that enhances my productivity, I'm not interested if this game of "Keeping up with the Jones". I would submit that it's those companies who continually throw out specs (often with inferior subsystems to hold down costs), that are much more likely to be misleading.
In a laptop, I would think it would be the more difficult thing *not* to be thermally coupled to the case...of course I could be wrong.
If you do not like ENvy, you can aways upgrade to HP Elitebook
And it has a better screen than MacBook Pro too.
Now if you get the latest Elitebook (8540w), you'll get i7 processor, USB 3. This thing will destroy MacBook Pro in all benchmarks (except for battery lie)
and what is you point? Are you here to advertise Windows crapbook ? This is a Mac forum, and a Mbp board ...
We don't need another troll going around to "save us from the Evil". I could not care less about Hp/Dell products because they just don't run OSX and aren't Macs.
There is no direct contact (or heatpipe) between the cpu and and the chassis in the Macbook Pro. The only thermal coupling is air (which is not a very good conductor of heat).
True, true. I wasn't really implying that better specs would let me type faster
D) though, it's more of a value-for-money thing. It's psychological. It irks me to pay more and "get less", even if in real terms I don't feel a difference. Also, you're just looking at raw speed and the related features here. I would agree that for the moment it's not that important whether Apple gives us 4 gigs of RAM instead of 8 in their MBPs or Arrandales instead of Clarksfields, but what about missing specs that clearly limit the functionality of the device? What about the absence of Blu-Ray, FullHD, HDMI and - hopefully the new MBPs will prove me wrong - USB 3.0? This is the stuff I was referring to, not the 0,5 ghz other manufacturers sometimes have on Apple.
Oh, and if I were to get a new MBP, I would also immediately get a 256GB SSD - I agree with you that that's the bottleneck. However, if you order the SSD from Apple, they're just going to put in a crappy slow one from Samsung (the other manufacturers do this too)...
EDIT: And I wonder what people like Max(IT) and CP123 who passive-aggressively stifle any kind of debate and label everyone with a critical mind a troll are even doing on a discussion forum. Are you guys just here to pat each other on the back regarding your choice of operating system? Is this some kind of group therapy? We should be openly and objectively discussing the advantages and shortcomings of our platform, otherwise we don't need a forum.
Thermal coupling would most likely be via a thermal grease, a compound that is a good thermal conductor, unlike air, as stated above, an insulator rather than a conductor (think about thermoses). The idea of Apple using the aluminum body itself as a heat sink by thermally coupling the CPU to the casing seems rather unlikely.
Anyhow I would definitely agree that the manufacturing cost to retail price ratio is kinda off, comparatively (to HP, Dell, etc.), but consumers have always been willing to pay the premium for the MBP line so Apple doesn't really face much pressure at all to decrease their costs. However, if you think of all the North American labor that went into manufacturing the physical design and OS, it is somewhat (but still, not really) justified.
I found this little tidbit interesting. It's about the MBP thumbscoop and how they went through "thousands of designs" and apparently went as far as looking at it with an electron microscope. Imagine how many hours of work and labor Apple had to pay their employees for this. If it came down to having a release button rather than a subatomic-precisely designed thumbscoop for $200 off the price, I'd have no problem taking the button.
http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/design.html#thumbscoop
There is no direct contact (or heatpipe) between the cpu and and the chassis in the Macbook Pro. The only thermal coupling is air (which is not a very good conductor of heat).
I stand corrected!
Yea, but as a Mac forum, there's sort of an unstated assumption that everyone here is pro-Mac. Consequently, there's a lot of anti-Windows sentiment. As a guy who uses Ubuntu 8 hours a day at work I feel like Switzerland. At least until I get a new MBP and can replace my work workstation with that
a pound of raw aluminum runs about $1.
a pound of machine ready aluminum alloy blank or sheet can run upwards of $10/pound.
I know for a fact that a 1/2" thick 12"x18" piece of ASTM6061 aluminum will run you $100 at current market prices, and that's shopping around for cheap.
For reference, that piece of plate weighs in over 10lbs, given that it's 108 cu in, and the density of 6061 is 0.098 lb/cu. in
A machinist would charge you around $50/hour to machine a complex shell like the unibody, and it would probably take 2-3 hours given the complexity.
This post convinced me, Im prob getting an Envy...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasailmac
so after using my parents macbook pro and my hp envy i got it price matched at 1799 canadian and the pro was 2199(2.66) here are the specs of the envy
Intel Core i7-720QM 1.6
6gb ddr3 ram
500gb 7200rpm
ati 5830
15 cells of battery 6 cell plus 9 cell slice
build quality is excellent on par with the mac, mine doesnt feel cheap at all but id still give the edge to apple because its the original
screen WOW, the envy at 1080p destroys the macbook pro, at its lowest brightness its equivelent to the pro at 3-4 notches, best laptop screen ive ever used and i really hope apple goes 16:9 the form factor is so much sleeker
performance well in everything the hp feels much faster, the i7 is an amazing processor
heating- some review units have been getting hot, note that this were rev 1, mines a rev 2 and it has no cooling issues, it does get mildly hot tho but hp has done a good job on cooling
keyboard- its great no backlight but they both feel identical no flex at all.
battery. heres where the pro shines but this is due to the i7 and the gpu, on the 6 cell i get 3 hours and with 15 cells i get around 6 hours, the pro gets 7 hours, here brightness is at half and office with web browsing.
Speakers- hp destroys although not as loud as the pro the sound is so much richer and has less distortion
Im glad i went with the envy, its the best laptop ive ever had and i strongly reccomend it those willing to use windows 7. Also i find it rather odd that my laptop has better specs than the 27 inch imac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasailmac
so after using my parents macbook pro and my hp envy i got it price matched at 1799 canadian and the pro was 2199(2.66) here are the specs of the envy
Intel Core i7-720QM 1.6
6gb ddr3 ram
500gb 7200rpm
ati 5830
15 cells of battery 6 cell plus 9 cell slice
build quality is excellent on par with the mac, mine doesnt feel cheap at all but id still give the edge to apple because its the original
screen WOW, the envy at 1080p destroys the macbook pro, at its lowest brightness its equivelent to the pro at 3-4 notches, best laptop screen ive ever used and i really hope apple goes 16:9 the form factor is so much sleeker
performance well in everything the hp feels much faster, the i7 is an amazing processor
heating- some review units have been getting hot, note that this were rev 1, mines a rev 2 and it has no cooling issues, it does get mildly hot tho but hp has done a good job on cooling
keyboard- its great no backlight but they both feel identical no flex at all.
battery. heres where the pro shines but this is due to the i7 and the gpu, on the 6 cell i get 3 hours and with 15 cells i get around 6 hours, the pro gets 7 hours, here brightness is at half and office with web browsing.
Speakers- hp destroys although not as loud as the pro the sound is so much richer and has less distortion
Im glad i went with the envy, its the best laptop ive ever had and i strongly reccomend it those willing to use windows 7. Also i find it rather odd that my laptop has better specs than the 27 inch imac
Yea, but as a Mac forum, there's sort of an unstated assumption that everyone here is pro-Mac. Consequently, there's a lot of anti-Windows sentiment. As a guy who uses Ubuntu 8 hours a day at work I feel like Switzerland. At least until I get a new MBP and can replace my work workstation with that
there is no "anti-Windows" sentiment.
The simply fact is that I don't like Windows, and I'm not going in every Windows forum just to bash Microsoft for its "crapware" ...
In this forum you can really find a lot of people with absolutely no interest in Apple's products, just searching for a flame or to show us how cool is their "top-notch Windows crapbook with 16 cores and 256 Gb of ram" compared with our poor C2Ds ...
Stifle debate? Label everyone with a critical mind a troll? Some kind of therapy?
Aw come on. Do you need a hug or something. I didn't know that my questioning people who come on a Mac forum, to tout how good the Windows-based PCs are, will cause self esteem issues. Please show me where I called someone a troll. Additionally, please show me where I have stifled critical thinking (as if I have some kinda power over people).
I just can't understand all these different threads about how the other computers own Apple, etc, etc, And it's the same people making the same arguments in these threads. If you feel like Apple is not giving you a good product, why don't you go on the other forums and discuss your problems with Apple. Here's a novel idea, how about going to other forums and stating something positive. Who are you trying to convince?
Once again, if you want to get a Windows-based PC, go ahead and good luck. No one will begrudge you.
No, he's quoting me
BTW, from Wikipedia's definition of a troll:
a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response
AM I wrong ? This is a Mac Forum, by definition, and you can surely discuss about flaw in Apple's products or marketing policies. But there are an HUGE amount of threads where people are simply stating how Windows PC are "better" specs-wise.
And I absolutely agree with you.
As I said before, if I think that Windows computers don't match with my needs, I don't post in Windows forums just to say how Mac OSX is better, because this is "flaming"
The troll guy is Max(IT), by whom I have yet to read a single substantive non-fanboyish post. For God's sake, he labels the Elitebook a "Windows crapbook", even though it outspecs anything Apple currently offers in the mobile area and is probably better built as well. I have no problem admitting this, even though I'm a long-time Mac-user - because I can talk about these things objectively. Apple is not part of my identity or something, so I'm not making a fool of myself raving about "crapbooks" just to make myself feel better about my own platform.
As for you, I was merely reacting to that passive-aggressive statement you made earlier - in the vein of "hyuck hyuck, so you're getting an Elitebook, good luck with that and good riddance". Sheesh, can't we do without that attitude and just discuss the merits as well as the weaknesses of our platform of choice? Can't we remain objective and aware of the areas where Apple has yet to catch up to its competitors? Isn't that kind of constructive discussion the point of a forum like this one? If all we're doing is posting stuff like "wow, my MBP sure rules", "sure thing, everything else is a crapbook" etc. then that's not an interesting conversation. As Mac-users, we should always remain aware of the competition's offerings so that we know what we should be able to expect from Apple.
What got me in this thread was the pathetically triumphant comparison between the MBP and HP's Envy - the latter is merely a mid-range laptop with certain issues, it's cheaper and better specced than the MBP, but not very well built. In fact, we should be comparing the MBP to other "pro"-laptops, and as someone else mentioned, that's not the Envy, but the Elitebook. Now, a constructive reaction to that would be to encourage a debate about the advantages and disadvantages of the two models, maybe someone who has used both could chime in... But no, people like you and Max(IT) immediately get defensive and post stuff in the vein of "crapbooks" or "heh, if you like the Elitebook so much, why don't you marry it". The result: no discussion, no interesting posts... That's what irks me.