iPhone 12 Is iPhone 12 still using PWM OLED?

[jm31828]

Hello my friends, I am one of the PWM affected minority and I have created this account in order to participate in discussion about it now and in the future. In addition it will be handy to use the Ignore function to hide posts by a couple of users posting in this thread who have frustrated me by making useless comments.

I noticed that Notebookcheck did not post a review of the 12 pro in either English or German, only the iPhone 12.

I have found that they have posted this article about the PWM specifically in the 12 Pro here in German only. I enclose the link to the German and also a translation.

German
English Translation (Google)

It seems that with this device, the 12 Pro, Apple have changed things somewhat from the 11 Pro and the devices before it. The frequency changes at least 3 times throughout the brightness range this time.

Thank you for sharing, this is really interesting! If I am reading this correctly, the flicker is most manageable and should not be a problem for most- even many who are sensitive- at brightness levels below 21%?

I am so curious if the Mini is similar, or completely different in this regard. I have not seen anything published yet on the Mini since it was just released last week.

 

[The.Glorious.Son]

I'm curious to know the mechanism by which your brain, contrary to the brains of everybody else, is able to detect flickering at over 200Hz. You can't simply detect flickering at that frequency. It is physiology.

Aren’t you the scientist lol? Why not share a link to your scientific evidence that the brain cannot detect flickering at this frequency? I’m a mere brain surgeon so I am not sure I’m qualified to debunk your numerous claims.

 

[Rumours]

Thank you for sharing, this is really interesting! If I am reading this correctly, the flicker is most manageable and should not be a problem for most- even many who are sensitive- at brightness levels below 21%?

I am so curious if the Mini is similar, or completely different in this regard. I have not seen anything published yet on the Mini since it was just released last week.

The 12 and 12 mini are using different displays entirely. I cannot even speak with accuracy for the 12 Pro Max, although it does use the same display (a larger version of it) Apple could be using different settings.

The flicker being manageable and whether you have a problem or not is EXTREMELY subjective and would require personal trial in my opinion.

I have a Motorola Nexus 6 that uses AMOLED with PWM and I can use it all day long until the very very low range brightness kicks it into flicker town. However, personal experience of trying to use (among others) Samsung Galaxy S7,8,9,10 devices including the S10e, Pixel 2 XL, Pixel 3 XL, Samsung S10 5G, iPhone X, iPhone XS, iPhone XS Max have all caused me issues almost immediately upon use.

Here is the ixbt (another foreign language website that specializes in in depth technical review of smartphones) review of the Nexus 6 in Russian and English, so that you may view the frequency graphs relating to the Nexus 6.

Russian
English Translation (Google)

As can be seen, a 60hz pulse with extremely shallow amplitude is in use here in the Motorola Nexus 6. I can be comfortable using the phone at anything above 25% brightness.

However, the frequency of the pulse is not all that is at play with this problem. I have seen in several reviews of other devices that the modulation frequency and likely amplitude can vary based on zone (different parts of the display flickering at different rates). A lot of flicker tests are done with a pure white background which would show the base rate, but if you introduce a gradient or a mishmash of colours you will observe that the rate and/or amplitude is actually different based on exactly where on the screen you take measurement.

The above information is why I suspect that those users such as the youtuber Zollotech and several users of this forum claim that the 11 Pro is tolerable to them despite the actual base PWM frequency not changing that much when measured from an all white image being dimmed. It may be that Apple are more aggressive with reining in areas of the screen that may be flickering excessively and bothering users, and this variable has been largely overlooked by people suffering with the issue in my opinion. Everyone is focusing on the base rate, 60hz, 240hz, whatever it is but not at all that only one part of the screen may be doing that, 75% or even all of it may be behaving differently in actual real world usage scenarios.

 

[jm31828]

The 12 and 12 mini are using different displays entirely. I cannot even speak with accuracy for the 12 Pro Max, although it does use the same display (a larger version of it) Apple could be using different settings.

The flicker being manageable and whether you have a problem or not is EXTREMELY subjective and would require personal trial in my opinion.

I have a Motorola Nexus 6 that uses AMOLED with PWM and I can use it all day long until the very very low range brightness kicks it into flicker town. However, personal experience of trying to use (among others) Samsung Galaxy S7,8,9,10 devices including the S10e, Pixel 2 XL, Pixel 3 XL, Samsung S10 5G, iPhone X, iPhone XS, iPhone XS Max have all caused me issues almost immediately upon use.

Here is the ixbt (another foreign language website that specializes in in depth technical review of smartphones) review of the Nexus 6 in Russian and English, so that you may view the frequency graphs relating to the Nexus 6.

Russian
English Translation (Google)

View attachment 1670177

As can be seen, a 60hz pulse with extremely shallow amplitude is in use here in the Motorola Nexus 6. I can be comfortable using the phone at anything above 25% brightness.

However, the frequency of the pulse is not all that is at play with this problem. I have seen in several reviews of other devices that the modulation frequency and likely amplitude can vary based on zone (different parts of the display flickering at different rates). A lot of flicker tests are done with a pure white background which would show the base rate, but if you introduce a gradient or a mishmash of colours you will observe that the rate and/or amplitude is actually different based on exactly where on the screen you take measurement.

The above information is why I suspect that those users such as the youtuber Zollotech and several users of this forum claim that the 11 Pro is tolerable to them despite the actual base PWM frequency not changing that much when measured from an all white image being dimmed. It may be that Apple are more aggressive with reining in areas of the screen that may be flickering excessively and bothering users, and this variable has been largely overlooked by people suffering with the issue in my opinion. Everyone is focusing on the base rate, 60hz, 240hz, whatever it is but not at all that only one part of the screen may be doing that, 75% or even all of it may be behaving differently in actual real world usage scenarios.

Thanks for that great info! This definitely makes it more complicated to figure some of this out without actually buying the phones and doing some testing.

I just received my 12 Mini on Friday and am still trying to figure out if this one is going to bother me like the XS did two years ago. I had read about some testing in another thread where it appeared that around 50% brightness might be a bit more tolerable, but then I had to adjust reduce white point quite a bit at that point to keep the screen dim.... some odd sensations so far looking at it, but no real headaches- but I will continue messing with it to see how things go.

I wish I had equipment to measure some of this with it to see what the truth really is- and to find out if the Mini is in fact worse for the eyes than the 12 or 12 Pro as some have speculated in other threads.

 

[iCorz87]

Just curious, do you PWM sufferers have problems with other newer phones like the new SE? My wife is now taking these pills to help with vertigo, and I cant say for sure but do you think her new SE could be contributing? Did you have problems with your SE2? I have a hard time believing it could be her phone, but I don't know everything and cannot claim to, so I come to you..

My problems with PWM relate to me having epilepsy so I can’t say for certain it’s going to be the same for your wife. I gave my dad my 11pro because I was getting headaches and feeling dizzy. I then went to an SE2 while awaiting the release of the 12 range and upon finding out that the whole range had OLED like the 11pro ( which my doctor says isn’t good for me) I bought and 11. Neither the SE2 or 11 gave me the feelings I had with the 11pro. Everyone is different though but this is just my experience.

 

[freeagent]

My problems with PWM relate to me having epilepsy so I can’t say for certain it’s going to be the same for your wife. I gave my dad my 11pro because I was getting headaches and feeling dizzy. I then went to an SE2 while awaiting the release of the 12 range and upon finding out that the whole range had OLED like the 11pro ( which my doctor says isn’t good for me) I bought and 11. Neither the SE2 or 11 gave me the feelings I had with the 11pro. Everyone is different though but this is just my experience.

Thanks man. She’s got an MRI lined up now.

 

[kazmac]

Thanks for offering to help. Do you have any eye strain issues with the 11/XR/iPad Pro 2018?

Update;

iPad Air 2020: Experiencing bad eye strain today. I turned the brightness up to 75% in Dark Mode. I did not know that True Tone was on (I generally keep TT off in favor of Night Shift).

Just turned TT off and turned brightness down to 45%. Will monitor for the next day or so. Such a bummer.

 

[QuattroRS6]

Update;

iPad Air 2020: Experiencing bad eye strain today. I turned the brightness up to 75% in Dark Mode. I did not know that True Tone was on (I generally keep TT off in favor of Night Shift).

I can confirm this, yesterday i sent my iPad Air back, because i could do what i want it was always uncomfortable for me to look at the screen, i had eye strain, dry eyes, sleepy eyes and this with the fact that we have no PWM at the iPad Air 4. TrueTone does not make any difference in my case. I tried to read a eBook with the Kindle App and i always feeled like blinded by the light.

On the iPhone 12 Pro i had the same Feeling but with dizziness, i think this is because of PWM.

I dont know what Apple is doing, i noticed that i only have Problems with TrueTone Displays. With the cheaper iPhone and iPads without TrueTone Display everything is fine.

 

[tonybarnaby]

I can confirm this, yesterday i sent my iPad Air back, because i could do what i want it was always uncomfortable for me to look at the screen, i had eye strain, dry eyes, sleepy eyes and this with the fact that we have no PWM at the iPad Air 4. TrueTone does not make any difference in my case. I tried to read a eBook with the Kindle App and i always feeled like blinded by the light.

On the iPhone 12 Pro i had the same Feeling but with dizziness, i think this is because of PWM.

I dont know what Apple is doing, i noticed that i only have Problems with TrueTone Displays. With the cheaper iPhone and iPads without TrueTone Display everything is fine.

What about an 8+?

 

[Janichsan]

^ What a bummer! You can see the flicker in the video.

Oh man, yep that flicker was clear- seems no better than last year’s phones.

Gee, I wonder how this could happen in a video that was recorded at 240 fps...

 

[RealPhone]

Deleted

 

[jimmy_uk]

12 Pro Max was ok to start with but I could feel the edges of my eyes reacting straight out of the box - like they were working hard or strained slightly. At least I didn't get an instant headache like previous years I thought too myself. Tried a 12 the following day thinking I didn't like the size and weight of the Pro Max but it was harder on my eyes - felt like someone was shining a torch into my eyes. I would note (with truetone off) the Pro Max was a little duller and yellow looking, it shifted to blue/green with very minor movement. The 12 was redder which gave more contrast and had very little colour shift.

Switching between the two over the weekend resulted in a very bad headache, queasy feeling and my eye muscles feeling very sore & tired. The Pro Max started to make my eyes water! Two days later my eyes are still uncomfortable and I'm having trouble focusing on my iMac. They were both returned. X, XS, XS Max, 12 and 12 Pro are all a no go for me. Never again will I mess with Apple OLED.

Full disclosure - I have no health issues. I wear contact lenses. No issues with any other screens (7 Plus, 5K iMac, 4K UHD Samsung OLED TV).

 

[TDDM]

I dont know what Apple is doing, i noticed that i only have Problems with TrueTone Displays. With the cheaper iPhone and iPads without TrueTone Display everything is fine.

Based on what you’ve described, your situation sounds familiar to those of us who have issues with the newer LCD Apple screens. If you ever get the chance, I’d be curious if the iPad 8th gen causes eye strain (My theory is that devices with A12 or higher have something that causes our issues).

 

[jm31828]

Based on what you’ve described, your situation sounds familiar to those of us who have issues with the newer LCD Apple screens. If you ever get the chance, I’d be curious if the iPad 8th gen causes eye strain (My theory is that devices with A12 or higher have something that causes our issues).

This might be a dumb question, but in regards to True Tone- does it help you to turn off True Tone? Just curious as True Tone has been around quite a while (I thought it was an option on my 7 and certainly was on my 8+, so this goes back quite a ways).

 

[TDDM]

This might be a dumb question, but in regards to True Tone- does it help you to turn off True Tone? Just curious as True Tone has been around quite a while (I thought it was an option on my 7 and certainly was on my 8+, so this goes back quite a ways).

Unfortunately, turning TT off doesn’t help in my case. I was also able to use TT on the 8 when I had it, so I don’t think it’s a factor.

 

[QuarterSwede]

Some people are sensitive to it and get eye strain/headaches.

You have to be extremely sensitive though. I’m sensitive to fluorescent 60Hz flicker and I can only notice the 12’s PWM flicker at the lowest brightness setting, in the dark, when I’m not directly looking at it, instead through the side of my eye (periphery vision is more sensitive to motion in humans). Otherwise it looks just like a more contrasty version of the LCD Retina display.

 

[dan98]

You have to be extremely sensitive though. I’m sensitive to fluorescent 60Hz flicker and I can only notice the 12’s PWM flicker at the lowest brightness setting, in the dark, when I’m not directly looking at it, instead through the side of my eye (periphery vision is more sensitive to motion in humans). Otherwise it looks just like a more contrasty version of the LCD Retina display.

It's not about seeing, or even 'noticing' the flicker - it's subliminal/subconscious.
I would bet there are many other people who are sensitive to PWM but have no idea what is causing them to feel unwell.

 

[Rumours]

It's not about seeing, or even 'noticing' the flicker - it's subliminal/subconscious.
I would bet there are many other people who are sensitive to PWM but have no idea what is causing them to feel unwell.

Oh yes, even more because of the image and feeling of necessity that can surround use of an iPhone.

 

[QuattroRS6]

I dont know what they mean with Flickering, if its the PWM Problem but in this Article they write, that Apple is aware about the Problems with the OLED Panels. I hope they find a Solution.

 

[Jetcat3]

Here is some more information about PWM and exactly how’s it’s implemented in the 12 Pro this year. https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple...l-Smartphone-with-Retro-Styling.504562.0.html

 

[jm31828]

Here is some more information about PWM and exactly how’s it’s implemented in the 12 Pro this year. https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple...l-Smartphone-with-Retro-Styling.504562.0.html

Interesting breakdown they had, I had not seen this much detail before in their discussion of the PWM. Also surprising, I had always heard that around 50% or above was a bit better for flicker- but according to this, 21%- 50% brightness is actually the sweet spot for brightness to avoid the worst/most uncomfortable flicker. I will have to assume that my mini''s PWM is similar to what is described here, and make some adjustments to see if it helps! (I was setting my brightness at 50% and then using 80% reduce white point to darken it so it did not fry my sensitive eyeballs).

 

[dan98]

Interesting breakdown they had, I had not seen this much detail before in their discussion of the PWM. Also surprising, I had always heard that around 50% or above was a bit better for flicker- but according to this, 21%- 50% brightness is actually the sweet spot for brightness to avoid the worst/most uncomfortable flicker. I will have to assume that my mini''s PWM is similar to what is described here, and make some adjustments to see if it helps! (I was setting my brightness at 50% and then using 80% reduce white point to darken it so it did not fry my sensitive eyeballs).

I'd be interested to know if using the Mini in the range 21-50% is acceptable for a PWM-sufferer.
This is coincidentally the range I usually stick to with my SE1.
Outdoors is probably higher than 50% but as they point out, it may not be such a problem due to the light diffusion.

 

[ghanwani]

Here is some more information about PWM and exactly how’s it’s implemented in the 12 Pro this year. https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple...l-Smartphone-with-Retro-Styling.504562.0.html

Interesting that it's slightly worse than the 11 Pro (but probably not that noticeable).

 

[jm31828]

I'd be interested to know if using the Mini in the range 21-50% is acceptable for a PWM-sufferer.
This is coincidentally the range I usually stick to with my SE1.
Outdoors is probably higher than 50% but as they point out, it may not be such a problem due to the light diffusion.

Yeah, on the LCD phones it does not matter as there is no flicker- so I always kept my previous phones (8+, and more recently my 11) at around 20% since I cannot stand a very bright screen. But with these OLED displays, generally you had much worse flicker below 50%- but it looks here that 21%-50% is all about the same for flicker..... so I am going to adjust mine down to somewhere in that range, and will then lighten up on the reduce white point (which I had heard adds flicker, but don't know for sure) to see if that is a bit better.

 

[matthijst]

12 Pro Max was ok to start with but I could feel the edges of my eyes reacting straight out of the box - like they were working hard or strained slightly. At least I didn't get an instant headache like previous years I thought too myself. Tried a 12 the following day thinking I didn't like the size and weight of the Pro Max but it was harder on my eyes - felt like someone was shining a torch into my eyes. I would note (with truetone off) the Pro Max was a little duller and yellow looking, it shifted to blue/green with very minor movement. The 12 was redder which gave more contrast and had very little colour shift.

Switching between the two over the weekend resulted in a very bad headache, queasy feeling and my eye muscles feeling very sore & tired. The Pro Max started to make my eyes water! Two days later my eyes are still uncomfortable and I'm having trouble focusing on my iMac. They were both returned. X, XS, XS Max, 12 and 12 Pro are all a no go for me. Never again will I mess with Apple OLED.

Full disclosure - I have no health issues. I wear contact lenses. No issues with any other screens (7 Plus, 5K iMac, 4K UHD Samsung OLED TV).

Same.
Used the 12 PM for 2 full days. Headaches again.
Returned it and back the the 8. Headache gone.