Is it morally acceptable to abuse a generous returns policy?

[zakarhino]

Not about Apple's profits, not an objection to being able to return what you paid for. Read the thread if you'd like to know what people are actually talking about.

Reasons I've seen so far skimming the thread (not gonna read in depth because I don't care)

1. People upset they have to wait longer for their laptop (not my problem, I'm spending a lot of money too and want to buy the right product for me. Returning a single laptop out of the tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of identical units being produced and shipped isn't going to slow down someone else's order)

2. Climate reasons (blip on the radar, meaningless self indulgent concern directed at the wrong people)

3. Vague definitions of "it's immoral" (???) unless you're buying a returning a laptop every 14 days so effectively get a laptop for 'free' indefinitely (nobody in the real world is doing this) then I can't fathom how returning something can be considered immoral. If you're worried about Apple's economics and the cost Apple has to endure to restock then you're delusional.

 

[Rafterman]

I myself placed an order for both the M1 Max and the Pro, planning on returning one of them (unopened) after watching the full battery reviews. I was afraid that the shipping dates would continue to slip the longer I waited for the battery reviews.

I must admit that ethics isn't something that crossed my mind ?

I can tell you that I was more than a little annoyed at the PS5 scalpers. Though I know that this isn't the same as that.

Unopened does not matter. Once the item is sold and leaves Apple's sales computer system, if it is returned, even unopened, it is considered opened and will be sent for refurbishing.

 

[adamk77]

Unopened does not matter. Once the item is sold and leaves Apple's sales computer system, if it is returned, even unopened, it is considered opened and will be sent for refurbishing.

Had no idea. Thanks for the enlightenment.

 

[wilberforce]

The whole purpose of the return policy is so that you can try it out and decide if it satisfies you. Apple does this for a business reason, not because they are generous - they make more money by having this return policy than without it.

I expect people that repeatedly abuse the policy will get fired as a customer by Apple. Other places like B&H and Amazon have fired customers that abuse their return policies. This has greatly upset some of these people, as though being able to order from Amazon is their constitutional right or something.

 

[zakarhino]

Several people here not getting the point that returns raise prices, for everyone. Some who do get it are claiming with no evidence that it's not a big enough effect to matter. What I see in these forums doesn't support that. Seems pretty common here.

Fantasy world thinking. The prices will rise regardless of any return policy abuse and Apple will continue to increase the amount of money made per device ever year. Any notion of "savings get passed onto the customer" or its derivatives are not based in reality when dealing with a publicly traded company like Apple. Stopping return abuse will not slow down the rate of increasing prices, the two are mostly unrelated.

 

[profcutter]

But suppose if people didn’t return things like they were planks of wood from the timber yard, our kit was cheaper. Would that be something to dig?

You ever tried to return wood to a lumber yard? It ain’t gonna happen.

 

[Sanpete]

Reasons I've seen so far skimming the thread (not gonna read in depth because I don't care)

1. People upset they have to wait longer for their laptop (not my problem, I'm spending a lot of money too and want to buy the right product for me. Returning a single laptop out of the tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of identical units being produced and shipped isn't going to slow down someone else's order)

2. Climate reasons (blip on the radar, meaningless self indulgent concern directed at the wrong people)

3. Vague definitions of "it's immoral" (???) unless you're buying a returning a laptop every 14 days so effectively get a laptop for 'free' indefinitely (nobody in the real world is doing this) then I can't fathom how returning something can be considered immoral. If you're worried about Apple's economics and the cost Apple has to endure to restock then you're delusional.

Fantasy world thinking. The prices will rise regardless of any return policy abuse and Apple will continue to increase the amount of money made per device ever year. Any notion of "savings get passed onto the customer" or its derivatives are not based in reality when dealing with a publicly traded company like Apple. Stopping return abuse will not slow down the rate of increasing prices, the two are mostly unrelated.

You're getting warmer, at least.

1. OK, you don't care about other people.
2. All these blips add up, of course.
3. You're still lost there.

It's fantasy-world thinking to imagine that the costs to Apple for its products don't affect the prices.

 

[Macalway]

The whole purpose of the return policy is so that you can try it out and decide if it satisfies you. Apple does this for a business reason, not because they are generous - they make more money by having this return policy than without it.

I expect people that repeatedly abuse the policy will get fired as a customer by Apple. Other places like B&H and Amazon have fired customers that abuse their return policies. This has greatly upset some of these people, as though being able to order from Amazon is their constitutional right or something.

I've read posts by some of these people. They are very vocal with their indignation. They usually will admit to some big ticket returns, but the facts would shock most of us. Some I imagine just don't realize that they are overdoing it. Like with a lot of things. Others may just be unscrupulous.

 

[mp8]

x

 

[nortonandreev]

But don’t you think that the returns policy results in increased product price to cover return costs?

I believe that any business that wants to be profitable will try to charge the highest price that the customers will be willing to pay. If it will go to cover returns or if it will be pure profit - won’t change anything for the end-consumer.

I agree that buying two devices with the intend to return one is stupid, I’d never do it. However, I had to return the AirPods Pro, as they just wouldn’t fit in my ears. It’s a product that cannot be tested in store (or not in every area anyways) and YouTube reviews won’t help me to find out if it will stay in my ears or not.

 

[dogslobber]

You should maximize your utility for yourself as you're talking about a return to a $2.5T market capped company. Your single actions are irrelevant to any COP 26 stuff. Let larger polluting corporations worry about those problems.

 

[Denumerable]

I'm super grateful for Apple's return policy. I live 2hrs from an Apple store and it costs ~$100 USD round-trip for tolls. Being able to order something and mail it back for free is amazing. Excellent customer care is a huge part of why I am a customer and an Apple advocate.

 

[James Godfrey]

In the US, at least, all purchases from authorized dealers can be returned within 14 days, longer around Christmas.

One reason we pay more is to cover the cost of returns. Those cost of those returns affects the price for everyone.


I don't follow your last sentence, but this isn't about whether Apple should have the return policy, it's about its cost to Apple, which is being passed on, same as with the other costs of producing and selling the product.

In the UK it’s only direct from Apple that you can get the 14 day returns no questions policy… as far as I am aware, presume it’s only the US where authorised retailers also have that luxury.

 

[mp8]

x

 

[Denumerable]

In the UK it’s only direct from Apple that you can get the 14 day returns no questions policy… as far as I am aware, presume it’s only the US where authorised retailers also have that luxury.

Japan has the same rules -- authorized dealers do not allow returns, only the official Apple store/website.

 

[mp8]

x

 

[boss.king]

You’ve worded your question in a pretty leading way.

If you mean “is it morally acceptable to buy items with the intention of returning some of them?” then my answer is yes, it’s absolutely acceptable because that’s what the policy is there for. Apple makes more by getting people to buy and try things and getting some sent back than if people didn’t buy anything for fear of not liking it and not being able to return it. You’re already footing the return bill somewhere in your device pricing, you might as well use it.

Now, if you’re literally asking about purposefully abusing the system (whether by buying, using and returning items you never intended on keeping, or somehow defrauding the company by damaging products and returning them under the guise of shipping damage or whatever) then I think it’s obviously morally wrong.

So I think it really comes down to what you meant by the word abuse.

 

[dogslobber]

So you won't object if a homeless person steals your TV, after all you're much better of than (s)he is.

I don't understand the point you're making as I don't own a TV.

 

[Bandaman]

They make a lot of money still on the Apple refurb store. They're gonna be fine. I prefer buying things from the refurb store anyway.

 

[Sanpete]

I believe that any business that wants to be profitable will try to charge the highest price that the customers will be willing to pay. If it will go to cover returns or if it will be pure profit - won’t change anything for the end-consumer.

So you don't think cost to the seller affects price?

You should maximize your utility for yourself as you're talking about a return to a $2.5T market capped company. Your single actions are irrelevant to any COP 26 stuff. Let larger polluting corporations worry about those problems.

Ha, great argument for not taking personal responsibility! You can extend it to all kinds of things, such as voting, shoplifting from large businesses, etc.

 

[tennisproha]

Um, Apple probably has the least generous return policy of any manufacturer.

And simply returning a product you don’t want isn’t abusing it. Those products get resold. With the massive margins Apple has built in to the price, the cost to them is negligible.

 

[KennyJr]

Question in return .. Do you buy items on-line without reading the company's return policy?
Some will say free returns if the packaging is unopened. Some will say okay to return but you pay shipping one or both ways. Some will say that they accept returns but you have to pay a 15% restocking fee, etc.

When comparing prices online, if you have any sense at all, you look for, at minimum .. price .. company reputation .. shipping costs .. the word 'new' .. and return policy.

I bought my Apple Watch 7 and countless other items from Apple online and sight-unseen, only because there was no risk in doing so. I suspect if Apple got rid of their 'generous' return policy, it would be a first step in a long decline of sales, profit, and reputation.

 

[toobravetosave]

So what about, say, shoplifting from Apple, then? They're a trillion dollar company. Is shoplifting something from their store immoral? They can afford it.

Profit is extra money made after deducting all expenses like paying wages and materials cost etc i.e. it is the amount a company effectively steals from customers but yeah let's pretend stealing from apple is the real wrong

 

[Pro Apple Silicon]

But don’t you think that the returns policy results in increased product price to cover return costs?

Well, if it were another company I might think that. But Apple, their prices are already as high as they can possibly get away with. Nothing is "driving" those prices up, other than pure greed.

 

[Pro Apple Silicon]

You’re right. I already have an opinion. I’m just interested in what others think.

When I read about someone returning an Apple product 4 times because of some fantasy issue that Apple is keen to appease but no other user would even notice, I take issue with that.