Is the new MacBook Pro a dud?

[faust]

Just stop smashing those keys and you'll be fine. Better for your finger joints too. I am spending an entire day with that keyboard and its definitely better for my fingers than the old one. I used to have joint pain, now its almost disappeared.

I'm glad that the new keyboard is helping with your joints, grandpa. That is certainly a top priority for me, especially over such trivial matters as not losing my mind because it feels like I'm tapping on wood. Hmm, that leads me to a thought, good sir! Do you think, by chance, they will recognize the premium nature of wood for their next iteration of this fine device? A good unibody wood design. Heck, maybe they could entice Pro users back by offering custom lacquer finishes. That level of customization would be astounding. And it would make older geriatric Apple fans happy, because they could use the same lacquer they used on their chifforobe.

 

[leman]

I'm glad that the new keyboard is helping with your joints, grandpa. That is certainly a top priority for me, especially over such trivial matters as not losing my mind because it feels like I'm tapping on wood.

Well, your post makes two things very clear: first, your terrible sense of humour, and second, that your "not suitable for pro use" simply boils down to "I don't like it because I don't like it". Thanks for clearing it up.

 

[faust]

Well, your post makes two things very clear: first, your terrible sense of humour, and second, that your "not suitable for pro use" simply boils down to "I don't like it because I don't like it". Thanks for clearing it up.

Alright, fine. Let's go over some things.

This is what you can buy on the top of the line Macbook Pro /w TB for $3099.

• Touch Bar and Touch ID
• 2.9GHz quad-core Intel Core i7 processor, Turbo Boost up to 3.8GHz
• 16GB 2133MHz memory
• 512GB PCIe-based SSD
• Radeon Pro 460 with 4GB memory
• Four Thunderbolt 3 ports
• Backlit Keyboard (English) & User's Guide

By spending $2,829.01? You get a fully functional, thin, beautiful top of the line mobile workstation from Dell. Here is the build to confirm.

Which company cares more about providing for Pro users? I think it's the latter. But I digress, let's get back to the basics. Which is the wood block typing experience of the Macbook Pro with Touch Bar. I'm totally okay with paying the Apple tax, because I enjoy macOS. It's a great, stellar closed loop, that I'm happy to be a part of. But it stops right there, because I'm not okay with the clearly hostile design choice on the MBP with the butterfly switch keyboard. It's another example of form over function. As much as I love Apple, they obviously learned their lesson with the Mac Pro. And, I think that speaks for the state of their providing "Pro" products. You know what? I would be okay with the MBP, if it only stopped deceiving us with the "Pro" label, and went for something reasonable like, "The Macbook Premium, now featuring Gold Leaf inlays". But this thing is not for Pro users, sorry.

I hope the effort I took to showcase this to you was helpful. Best of luck, friend.

 

[csurfr]

Alright, fine. Let's go over some things.

This is what you can buy on the top of the line Macbook Pro /w TB for $3099.

• Touch Bar and Touch ID
• 2.9GHz quad-core Intel Core i7 processor, Turbo Boost up to 3.8GHz
• 16GB 2133MHz memory
• 512GB PCIe-based SSD
• Radeon Pro 460 with 4GB memory
• Four Thunderbolt 3 ports
• Backlit Keyboard (English) & User's Guide

By spending $2,829.01? You get a fully function, thin, beautiful top of the line mobile workstation from Dell. Here is the build to confirm.

And it's still a dell. I owned the newest xps 9560, and it was garbage. I expect the 2 hours of battery life on that machine you have configured will make you happy.

 

[faust]

And it's still a dell. I owned the newest xps 9560, and it was garbage. I expect the 2 hours of battery life on that machine you have configured will make you happy.

I'm an Apple fan too. I'm actually buying the 2015 Macbook Pro next week. Like I said, I'm more than happy to pay the Apple tax, but we shouldn't delude ourselves that Apple is looking out for Pro users. Apple sacrificed performance for thinness, and battery life. They shouldn't call any notebook a "Pro" if they can't strike a balance between function, and form. Don't you think that's reasonable?

 

[csurfr]

I'm an Apple fan too. I'm actually buying the 2015 Macbook Pro next week. Like I said, I'm more than happy to pay the Apple tax, but we shouldn't delude ourselves that Apple is looking out for Pro users anymore. It's pure delusion to think they are, friend.

I'm a "pro" user and it fits my needs just fine. It might not be for everyone, but that doesn't make it a bad machine.

 

[leman]

Alright, fine. Let's go over some things.

This is what you can buy on the top of the line Macbook Pro /w TB for $3099.
[...]

By spending $2,829.01? You get a fully function, thin, beautiful top of the line mobile workstation from Dell. Here is the build to confirm.

And at the same time, the CPU performance is pretty much identical, the 460 Pro is faster then the M1200, the SSD in the Mac is faster, the WiFi in the Mac is faster, the external connectivity of the Mac is better, the Mac will give you 3+ hours more battery life while being more mobile at the same time. There are pro and contras to everything. One can of course save some more money and go for the consumer Dell line which offers better performance GPUs. Again, there is a lot of choice out there. If Precision suits your personal and/or professional needs better — get it!

P.S. BTW, I don't think that Apple can realistically offer Xeons in the MBP simply because Intel can't supply that many. Again, don't forget that Apple sells more MPBs than Dell sells Precisions and XPS together. The supply can be sufficient for the quantities of Precision laptops they ship every year (what would it be? 50k, 100k?200k?) — but do you think that Intel can scale it up to the six digit numbers that Apple needs

P.P.S. Another investing fact. The CPU in the MBP (Skylake i7-6920HQ) has the quoted price of $568. The Xeon Kaby Lake in the Precision has the quoted price of $434.

 

[faust]

And at the same time, the CPU performance is pretty much identical, the 460 Pro is faster then the M1200, the SSD in the Mac is faster, the WiFi in the Mac is faster, the external connectivity of the Mac is better, the Mac will give you 3+ hours more battery life while being more mobile at the same time. There are pro and contras to everything. One can of course save some more money and go for the consumer Dell line which offers better performance GPUs. Again, there is a lot of choice out there. If Precision suits your personal and/or professional needs better — get it!

P.S. BTW, I don't think that Apple can realistically offer Xeons in the MBP simply because Intel can't supply that many. Again, don't forget that Apple sells more MPBs than Dell sells Precisions and XPS together. The supply can be sufficient for the quantities of Precision laptops they ship every year (what would it be? 50k, 100k?200k?) — but do you think that Intel can scale it up to the six digit numbers that Apple needs?

Yes, I think Intel & Apple could work better so both their needs are met, and the consumers are not left with a product that should be better. Anyways, I'm sorry for getting off track. And I'm sorry for being rude to you. It's obviously awesome that the butterfly switch keyboard is working for you, and that it's form is helping with joint pain is fantastic. But, Jesus. I typed on the keyboard for 20 minutes, and it made me angry. I like more response from keys when I type. It goes without saying that I'm sticking to the Mac ecosystem, but I'm gonna get the 2015 model, and wait until they refine their new keyboard more before upgrading again. <3

Sorry, again. Have a good night! I'm off to sleep.

 

[aevan]

Alright, fine. Let's go over some things.

Which company cares more about providing for Pro users?

Different pro users, different needs. You assume too much. For me, Apple is the company that fulfills my professional needs the best.

Which is the wood block typing experience of the Macbook Pro with Touch Bar. I'm totally okay with paying the Apple tax, because I enjoy macOS. It's a great, stellar closed loop, that I'm happy to be a part of. But it stops right there, because I'm not okay with the clearly hostile design choice on the MBP with the butterfly switch keyboard.

I get it you don't like it. But for me it's not hostile, in fact, it's comfortable, precise, even fun - it's an improvement in every way.

The thing about taste is - it varies from person to person. So do opinions. And needs.

It's another example of form over function.

For me it's both. Also, form is very important too - if that form allows greater mobility, smaller volume, you know - the things you want from a MOBILE computer. God forbid if it also looks better, right? Because "pros" are utilitarian 100% pragmatic bare-bones robots with no emotions.

You know what? I would be okay with the MBP, if it only stopped deceiving us with the "Pro" label, and went for something reasonable like, "The Macbook Premium, now featuring Gold Leaf inlays". But this thing is not for Pro users, sorry.

Different pros, different pro needs. This thing is not for EVERY pro, but there are a lot of pros that benefit from Apple's design choices. If it doesn't meet your expectations, get something else. However, please restrain from making assumptions about other professionals. Or anyone else for that matter.
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I'm glad that the new keyboard is helping with your joints, grandpa.

That was very rude. Also, without any real arguments against a post with very convincing ones. The poster made a very good point how the new keyboard offers a practical benefit (better for his joints) and you answered with an insult.

Oh, yeah, you're a pro alright. Speaking on behalf of pros everywhere.

 

[Ayemerica]

It really cracks me up when people say the MacBook Pro can't be used for "Pro" work. I owned the 2015 rMB and it wasn't QUITE enough or my daily driver but the 2016 nTB model is enough for my work load. My MBP has paid for itself three fold since purchasing it February 21st 2017. Isn't a pro machine meant to make you money? Mine is.

 

[AdamA9]

Not buying the new one until the apple light on the back of the screen comes back. Until then, my Late '13 MBP will have to do.

 

[aevan]

Not buying the new one until the apple light on the back of the screen comes back. Until then, my Late '13 MBP will have to do.

Um, I don't think it's coming back.

 

[Ethosik]

It really cracks me up when people say the MacBook Pro can't be used for "Pro" work. I owned the 2015 rMB and it wasn't QUITE enough or my daily driver but the 2016 nTB model is enough for my work load. My MBP has paid for itself three fold since purchasing it February 21st 2017. Isn't a pro machine meant to make you money? Mine is.

Apparently, people severely overreact to the "Pro" terms. Why aren't people complaining about the PS4 "Pro" not being Pro? How is the Surface Pro "Pro" but a MBP with better hardware is not "Pro"?

I guess everyone (Microsoft, Apple, Dell, ...) needs to stop using the term "Pro" because it is shockingly confusing to SO MANY PEOPLE.

To some people here, the Macbook Pro was never truly "Pro". Did they ever have Xeons? Quadro graphics?

I guess it is only "Pro" if it contains a SD card slot. Who cares about the processor, or GPU, if it is missing an SD card slot, it is not "Pro"

 

[Dave245]

Apparently, people severely overreact to the "Pro" terms. Why aren't people complaining about the PS4 "Pro" not being Pro? How is the Surface Pro "Pro" but a MBP with better hardware is not "Pro"?

I guess everyone (Microsoft, Apple, Dell, ...) needs to stop using the term "Pro" because it is shockingly confusing to SO MANY PEOPLE.

To some people here, the Macbook Pro was never truly "Pro". Did they ever have Xeons? Quadro graphics?

I guess it is only "Pro" if it contains a SD card slot. Who cares about the processor, or GPU, if it is missing an SD card slot, it is not "Pro"

This is a very good point, what makes something Pro? for example is the iPad Pro in fact "Pro" enough? i would say yes because it can do so much, but others have and do say that no it's just a big iPad that's not capable enough even tho it can run great apps that can be used for work, the same can probably be said for the new MacBook Pro's.
I think some of the fuss is simply because people don't like change, Apple have taken away the SD slot, made it thinner and lighter (which is better for portability) they have also removed the physical function keys and replaced it with a Touch Bar that adapts to the app you are in.

My only argument against the 2016 MacBook Pro is the price, it think it is high priced but that will change when Apple drop the price like they do with most of their second gen laptops.

 

[Ethosik]

This is a very good point, what makes something Pro? for example is the iPad Pro in fact "Pro" enough? i would say yes because it can do so much, but others have and do say that no it's just a big iPad that's not capable enough even tho it can run great apps that can be used for work, the same can probably be said for the new MacBook Pro's.
I think some of the fuss is simply because people don't like change, Apple have taken away the SD slot, made it thinner and lighter (which is better for portability) they have also removed the physical function keys and replaced it with a Touch Bar that adapts to the app you are in.

My only argument against the 2016 MacBook Pro is the price, it think it is high priced but that will change when Apple drop the price like they do with most of their second gen laptops.

With a pen, it is a Pro for artists. Is it a Pro for 8K video editing? Obviously not!

 

[Dave245]

With a pen, it is a Pro for artists. Is it a Pro for 8K video editing? Obviously not!

But you can edit multiple streams of 4K video so then it is. The point is the word "Pro" is defined by the task you are doing really and whether the tech you are using can handle that, so what one person can deem as a pro device another might not.

 

[leman]

To some people here, the Macbook Pro was never truly "Pro". Did they ever have Xeons? Quadro graphics?

Hey, it has a Radeon Pro

 

[SDColorado]

Um, I don't think it's coming back.

Oh Apple will probably announce the glowing logo is returning at the same presser they announce the return of the 17" MBP and the iPod Classic .

I wonder if the change from the glowing Apple logo is a move to transistion to OLED displays in the future, where a backlight isn't present to illuminate the logo?

All the talk about whether or not the MBP is "pro" enough is funny. Considering the broad definision of "professional" (of a person) engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as a pastime, or a person engaged or qualified in a profession. I would argue that the majority of users of the MBP are "pros."

 

[CaptRB]

Yes, I think Intel & Apple could work better so both their needs are met, and the consumers are not left with a product that should be better. Anyways, I'm sorry for getting off track. And I'm sorry for being rude to you. It's obviously awesome that the butterfly switch keyboard is working for you, and that it's form is helping with joint pain is fantastic. But, Jesus. I typed on the keyboard for 20 minutes, and it made me angry. I like more response from keys when I type. It goes without saying that I'm sticking to the Mac ecosystem, but I'm gonna get the 2015 model, and wait until they refine their new keyboard more before upgrading again. <3

Sorry, again. Have a good night! I'm off to sleep.

Consider that 20 minutes is likely not going to tell you much. I'm 54 years old. I'm a pro sailor and I still enjoy biking and running, so don't call me "grandpa!" ;-)

But the reality is that I also adapted to the new keyboard over a few days and also now prefer it. I still have the previous generation keyboards and my external wireless unit has even more travel than those. I can work fine on any of them, but there's no doubt that the new butterfly system is superior. I put up a poll recently for owners and even in this negative environment, the new keyboard won out.

My wife is a FAST typist and finds the new keyboard allows for her best speed with fewest errors. I find it faster as well and even my 12 year old prefers it.

Consider giving it a better chance because these new machines easily best the last generation in so many ways.


R.

 

[jerryk]

People can reportedly type faster with the new keyboard and the majority of customers evaluate it positively. Why is it a "Pro hostile" choice? Are Pros (whoever that is) only allowed to work with typewriters or what?

If you type a lot, like 4+ hours a day, you want great key feel and long travel. The new keyboard tries to accomplish the key feel, and does OK. But on travel it falls short, in more than one way. The fact you have to adapt to it is really bad for heavy keyboard users. It might be OK if you only use the macbook, but switch back and forth to other laptops like a Lenovo Thinkpad, or a deskside with the a mechanical keyboard, and the shortcomings becoming really obvious.

 

[NT1440]

If you type a lot, like 4+ hours a day, you want great key feel and long travel. The new keyboard tries to accomplish the key feel, and does OK. But on travel it falls short, in more than one way. The fact you have to adapt to it is really bad for heavy keyboard users. It might be OK if you only use the macbook, but switch back and forth to other laptops like a Lenovo Thinkpad, or a deskside with the a mechanical keyboard, and the shortcomings becoming really obvious.

I type all day logging tickets and work I do (as well as a significant amount of typing here at MR in between jobs). I vastly prefer the new keyboard. Testimony from an IT guy that supports the 2013-2016 MBP line, Lenovo T460s, T450s, T560p, and HP Zbooks.

Butterfly 2 is my favorite keyboard to date. Big ass keys that are a joy to type on.

 

[leman]

If you type a lot, like 4+ hours a day, you want great key feel and long travel. The new keyboard tries to accomplish the key feel, and does OK. But on travel it falls short, in more than one way. The fact you have to adapt to it is really bad for heavy keyboard users. It might be OK if you only use the macbook, but switch back and forth to other laptops like a Lenovo Thinkpad, or a deskside with the a mechanical keyboard, and the shortcomings becoming really obvious.

I tried for some time to work with a mechanical keyboard but I just can't stand the feel of it compared to a low-travel keyboard of a MBP. I also don't understand why long travel is beneficial. In my experience, it only slows you down and forces you to apply more pressure, which I think ends up not being that good for your fingers (but I am not a physician, so I will gladly accept information from someone who knows more about these things).

P.S. And I type a lot. Like a LOT.

 

[jerryk]

I tried for some time to work with a mechanical keyboard but I just can't stand the feel of it compared to a low-travel keyboard of a MBP. I also don't understand why long travel is beneficial. In my experience, it only slows you down and forces you to apply more pressure, which I think ends up not being that good for your fingers (but I am not a physician, so I will gladly accept information from someone who knows more about these things).

P.S. And I type a lot. Like a LOT.

The reason you want longer travel and mechanical switches is to avoid bottoming out. With mechanical switches, I like Cherry MX Brown, you feel the switch engage and lift your fingers before you hit the bottom. But, it a personal preference.

 

[smirking]

If you type a lot, like 4+ hours a day, you want great key feel and long travel. The new keyboard tries to accomplish the key feel, and does OK.

Spend some time on keyboard enthusiast forums and you'll quickly learn that there is nothing even remotely close to a consensus definition of the right amount of travel or feel. I hated the keyboard at first, but I've come to like it better than the previous MBP keyboards because this keyboard is easier on my hands. I type a lot. I type fast and I've developed RSI from regularly clacking away at 100+ WPM for over 20 years.

I do wish it had just a teeny bit more of travel though and being a keyboard enthusiast, I know what you mean about the Lenovo keyboards. I drool a bit when I put my hands on one.

That said, out of necessity, I have two ways of evaluating a keyboard that don't agree with each other often. 1) Will it hurt? 2) Is it fun to type on it?

My review of the MBP's new keyboard is that it ranks very well on the former and is so so for the latter. I wouldn't endorse this keyboard for other people with RSI though. Their injuries are probably a bit different than mine and likely their preferences for what seems fun as well. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised for the next person to flip my ranking and say it hurts like hell to type on, but it's so much fun.

Most of my keyboards are mechanicals including an Ergodox, Kinesis Advantage, a stack of Model M's, a Topre, Classic ALPS switched Apple Extended II, and quite a few more.

 

[leman]

The reason you want longer travel and mechanical switches is to avoid bottoming out. With mechanical switches, I like Cherry MX Brown, you feel the switch engage and lift your fingers before you hit the bottom. But, it a personal preference.

That makes sense, but the pressure required to activate keys on the new keyboards is (at least subjectively) noticeably lower than the pressure required for the previous keyboard. I can apply less force, which not only allows me to type faster, but also lessens the impact.

I can understand that the new keyboard feels very hard to a user accustomed to an mechanical keyboard — simply because they are used to apply more force to keys. But that is hardly a valid reason to criticise a keyboard IMO. I was very sceptical about the new keyboard at first, but I adapted to it very quickly and now everything I have to work on a 2015 or earlier Mac, I feel physical and psychological discomfort simply because the keys are incredibly wobbly compared to the new model.

So I certainly agree with your last statement — its a matter of personal preference.