KGI: TrueDepth Camera Gives Apple 2.5 Year Lead Over Android Competitors

[HiRez]

He is apple's lap dog , barks on queue ....

also used for damage control.

Kuo is known for leaking a lot of Apple supply chain information, he may have his own agenda and sure, Apple may use him from time to time, but I hardly think he's their lapdog. Many of the things he leaks are not things Apple would want people knowing in advance and they can't be happy about those. He's also not always right in his leaks/assumptions.

 

[DNichter]

You twist yourself in knots to defend this clearly worse unlocking method, and I can say: fingerprint unlock is a natural user experience for a tool made for ... touching it before looking at its screen. Which is always the case. Even with FaceID you need to touch the device.

For all your half-baked arguments, you've never managed to refute one simple thing:

When I pick my phone up to use it, by the time I look at it, it's already unlocked, because I touch the fingerprint reader as part of the motion.

With FaceID, this is not the case. Not in any demo we've been shown. Not in any interview published.

With FaceID, you need to lift the phone, look at it, ensure the lock icon is unlocked (otherwise swiping won't work), then swipe up.

I know you can write a million words to explain how black is white, but you can't explain how FaceID is more simple and more natural. It's not.

You can use raise to wake also. As you bring it up to use it, it should be unlocked (at least that's what it has shown so far). Seems pretty natural to me.

 

[cmwade77]

If it's on your desk or in your pocket, it won't be constantly looking at your face. You need to tap to wake it or raise to wake for it to activate. There is also a setting not to show previews for messages although the X does this by default I believe and only shows the preview when the Face ID person looks at it. I guess the porn part is fair although I'd imagine if you are close enough to authenticate your phone, you would see someone else trying to use your phone. I don't know, I certainly respect everyone's decision to not like Face ID, I just think it's way overblown.

In other words you still have to press a button on the phone......how is that easier than simply pressing the touch ID to wake and unlock the phone all at once?

 

[flat five]

In other words you still have to press a button on the phone.....

what button?

 

[wigby]

The lightning standard is not a standard, it's an Apple-only thing that makes it more expensive and less convenient for the users to actually charge their devices and use accessories. That's no improvement.

Removing the headphone jack is just the removal of a very convenient feature. It's not good for anyone except Apple's bottom line, since they force their users into proprietary wireless.

I was adding to the list of Apple exclusive features that hit market first. The Lightning standard is spread across 1.5 billion iOS devices. It's a standard that any developer can create accessories for. That's a standard by my definition.

One of the things that makes Apple great is their proprietary standards. They might feel like a burden to some users or developers but they are the thing that allows Apple to deliver an entire hardware and software package. No one else can do this because no one else controls the port on their devices, for instance.

 

[Shanghaichica]

Kuo is known for leaking a lot of Apple supply chain information, he may have his own agenda and sure, Apple may use him from time to time, but I hardly think he's their lapdog. Many of the things he leaks are not things Apple would want people knowing in advance and they can't be happy about those. He's also not always right in his leaks/assumptions.

No Apple are the biggest leakers of all. Do you think that Home pod software just happened to leak out?

 

[kdarling]

Here's what is potentially 'revolutionary', a term that I don't like using:
...

• The crux of the whole Face ID concept: it has IR sources and rececievers that no other phone has. No other phone has the processing power yet. This allows the phone to convert IR dots that are displayed on your face and compared to a 3D face mask previously stored. Similar to how Hollywood maps CGI onto actors faces and bodies.

Actually, such work has also been going on for a long time elsewhere...

Back in August, Qualcomm announced a new set of Image Signal Processors, along with structured light 3D parts for facial recognition and VR purpose.

Kuo thinks Qualcomm's ultrasonic behind-display finger sensor will be coming very soon in Android phones, and the 3D facial pieces will follow in mass production in (possibly late) 2018.

Kuo has compared the parts suppliers for both systems. Some suppliers are providing to both companies:

Upshot: by the end of 2018 or early 2019, even non-flagship Android phones could have behind-display fingerprint and/or front-facing 3D face recognition.

 

[DNichter]

In other words you still have to press a button on the phone......how is that easier than simply pressing the touch ID to wake and unlock the phone all at once?

They are both one step in my eyes and probably equally as easy, but I think Face ID is less visible to the user as you likely won't even need to think about it. For me, I see that as progress. Remaining equally or better from a security standpoint and you don't have to think about it, that's great.

 

[BlargKing]

yea really , face unlock is because apple could not produce a under screen unlock , they sell it as amazing....its garb. I would rather just touch the screen.

all i know is S9 is going to have it. i guess thats what happens when you actually make you OWN screens.

It just seems somewhat gimmicky to me. Like fingerprint sensors make sense because they usually incorporate them into a button you can use to wake your phone, so one press wakes up my phone and simultaneously unlocks it. All my experiences with facial recognition to unlock across Microsoft and Sony's implementation with their respective consoles and Intel's RealSense have been more cumbersome than useful.

And I would hardly consider something thats completely optional and doesn't add much to the user experience putting iPhone "2.5 years ahead of Android". You could easily say Androids file system navigation puts Android 10 years ahead of iPhone because thats how long Android has had decent user accessible filesystem compared to iPhone. And I would consider the filesystem to add much more to the user experience than a facial unlock system.

 

[jkdsteve]

All to solve a problem that didn't need to exist......now if they have patents and are thinking about licensing this technology for somewhat better use cases...hmmm....billboards that recognize you anyone? :-D

EDIT: The real story, as always with the iPhone, is Apple's Silicon continues to outpace the competition.....FaceId and AR are just applications which benefit from it, as soon as more use cases/applications present themselves, Apple product will continue to outperform the competition.

 

[Shanghaichica]

They are both one step in my eyes and probably equally as easy, but I think Face ID is less visible to the user as you likely won't even need to think about it. For me, I see that as progress. Remaining equally or better from a security standpoint and you don't have to think about it, that's great.

I find it a bit disconcerting at times. I have the face unlock set on my note 8 and the fingerprint sensor. A lot of the time the phone unlocks so quickly before I even know what’s happened. Sometimes I’d prefer to use a more deliberate method of unlocking my phone like a fingerprint sensor.

On those occasions when face ID doesn’t work I’d like a fingerprint sensor to fall back on.

 

[mudflap]

I wonder where he gets his time stamps. I can say Samsung's Iris scanner gives it a infinite year lead over Apple especially since Apple will never use it. He really should not talk.

Did he call psychic reader Cleo???? RIP

You mean the Samsung iris scanner that can be fooled with a simple photo?

Face ID is tens of thousands of times more secure.

 

[xitongzou]

Why would they even bother to copy FaceID... they already have something better and easier to implement in TouchID / fingerprint sensor on most Android phones.

 

[Shanghaichica]

You mean the Samsung iris scanner that can be fooled with a simple photo?

Face ID is tens of thousands of times more secure.

But it wasn’t a simple photo was it.

 

[browncc45]

The Note 8 can scan the iris of it's users and use that for recognition...

What exactly does Samsung need to take from Face ID? Maybe Kuo is talking about exact copies of Face ID (facial scanning using IR) but iris scanning is a real thing that works great on the Note 8

It's not anywhere near as secure as touchID or regular finger print scanners; the iris scan in the note 8 cannot be used for samsung pay at all, only used for unlocking the phone

 

[Shanghaichica]

It's not anywhere near as secure as touchID or regular finger print scanners; the iris scan in the note 8 cannot be used for samsung pay at all, only used for unlocking the phone

The iris scan can be used for Samsung pay. You need to get your facts straight before posting. The iris scanner is more secure than fingerprint technology.

 

[DNichter]

I find it a bit disconcerting at times. I have the face unlock set on my note 8 and the fingerprint sensor. A lot of the time the phone unlocks so quickly before I even know what’s happened. Sometimes I’d prefer to use a more deliberate method of unlocking my phone like a fingerprint sensor.

On those occasions when face ID doesn’t work I’d like a fingerprint sensor to fall back on.

I hear ya. At least we have options. I don’t know how the Note works but I want the X to unlock and then I can check notifications or widgets or whatever and then go to my home screen if needed.

 

[aevan]

Do you actually have a working iPhone X to test out the face unlock system? Are you speaking from personal experience? Because you keep telling other people that they don't really know, and that they're "stretching it", yet unless you now have a working iPhone X you're using/testing, YOU are conjecturing AT LEAST as much as they are...

No, this is why I say "if it works as advertised". They say that if a selfie camera can see, anywhere in the capture area, a good part of your face from any angle, it will work. IF this is true, then you can hold the phone very naturally. IF this is not true, then Apple is lying - not my fault.

On the other hand, you guys are claiming it's worse then Touch ID and that you have to hold the phone in an unnatural way quite categorically.

 

[Shanghaichica]

I hear ya. At least we have options. I don’t know how the Note works but I want the X to unlock and then I can check notifications or widgets or whatever and then go to my home screen if needed.

For this reason I’ll probably end up with the 8+. Just waiting to hear more about the X before deciding either way. The camera seems like a decent enough reason to upgrade from my 7+.

 

[D.T.]

At the moment I can't believe the "mask" statement.
Let's put the fact that this is impractical to one side for a moment.

Apple are saying, if you copy someones face, dimensionally and color wise it won't fool an iPhone?
They showed maskes on a wall.
But are they telling a half truth I'm wondering, as the mask has no eyes.
So if you wore the mask then it would fool it.
Or dependent on what the mask is made of?

Something really sounds wrong and a bit iffy about that claim,.

From what I've read, it uses both IR and a 3D contour map, so it's not just that the face is a set of 3D points at X/Y/Z, but also has a heat signature that matches your biology (that matches your facial pattern). That's probably why non-organic hacks won't work - I mean, you could get a perfect mask, with the all the proper attributes and maybe a different person's face (under the mask) - or some kind of artificial thermal source - could be made to approximate the IR component of the security mechanism[?]

i wonder if faceID will work if you are smiling a bit ?!

Sure, that's part of the ML, and with the data they've collected, it should know what your face looks like in various positions (I haven't seen the complete registration process, they might even have you smile to be able to calculate elasticity, etc.)

I'd think it's a security issue. Right now my girlfriend can't use my Touch ID so it's the same thing. She puts in a passcode if she needs to use my phone or I hand it to her when it's already unlocked. Same thing with Face ID.

Just an FYI, she can actually register a finger(s) with TouchID, my wife and I are cross registered on each others iPhones and both registered on the little Gs.

 

[aevan]

You twist yourself in knots to defend this clearly worse unlocking method

Nah, I'm pretty straightforward and logical. And, while we don't know for sure without trying it, it is safe to assume the new method of unlocking will be superior in almost every way - unless you think Apple is lying in their interviews. Which, who knows, maybe they are.

You, on the other hand, are almost poetic with your "tool made for touching". Let me ask you - on what grounds do you define a phone as a tool made for touching first, and as a tool made for looking second?

When I pick my phone up to use it, by the time I look at it, it's already unlocked, because I touch the fingerprint reader as part of the motion.

With FaceID, this is not the case. Not in any demo we've been shown. Not in any interview published.

Well, my answer is that - again, assuming the iPhone X works as advertised - you're just flat out wrong. Touching the fingerprint reader is part of the motion, ok, if you want it to be. But, use your imagination and just do the motion without touching the fingerprint reader. This is Face ID.

And yes, they did mention it in an interview, the explained that as long as a significant part of your face is in the camera capture zone, it will unlock. You can see if it's part of your "natural motion" right now. Just use your front facing camera, do your "motion thing", and see if your face will pass through the camera capture zone. Unless you are really trying to keep your phone vertical, it will - even if you hold it very low.

With FaceID, you need to lift the phone, look at it, ensure the lock icon is unlocked (otherwise swiping won't work), then swipe up.

No, as several interviews pointed out, with Face ID you need to lift the phone and swipe to unlock. You don't wait for anything, it's that fast. The animation happens because Apple likes animations, but you don't have to wait for it.

I know you can write a million words to explain how black is white, but you can't explain how FaceID is more simple and more natural. It's not.

I'm affraid you've got it all wrong. You can spin it how you like, but black is black, white is white, Face ID is very likely more simple and more natural and you're trying to prove otherwise because you don't like change. Or like Android phones. Or just like contradicting people.

Honestly, I have no clue, I don't want to go into your motives, but you are trying to prove that resting a thumb while picking up a phone is more natural than.... picking up a phone.

I just wonder, when it comes out and when everyone finds out it unlocks basically without you even thinking about it, are you still going to stick with your part-of-my-natural-motion-clearly-better story, or will you admit you were wrong?

 

[DNichter]

From what I've read, it uses both IR and a 3D contour map, so it's not just that the face is a set of 3D points at X/Y/Z, but also has a heat signature that matches your biology (that matches your facial pattern). That's probably why non-organic hacks won't work - I mean, you could get a perfect mask, with the all the proper attributes and maybe a different person's face (under the mask) - or some kind of artificial thermal source - could be made to approximate the IR component of the security mechanism[?]




Sure, that's part of the ML, and with the data they've collected, it should know what your face looks like in various positions (I haven't seen the complete registration process, they might even have you smile to be able to calculate elasticity, etc.)




Just an FYI, she can actually register a finger(s) with TouchID, my wife and I are cross registered on each others iPhones and both registered on the little Gs.

Thanks! Yea I was aware but we just use a passcode (it's the same) on each others, no big deal.
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For this reason I’ll probably end up with the 8+. Just waiting to hear more about the X before deciding either way. The camera seems like a decent enough reason to upgrade from my 7+.

If I were you, I would just stick with the 7 plus. I don't feel like the 8 is worth the upgrade at all.

 

[D.T.]

Thanks! Yea I was aware but we just use a passcode (it's the same) on each others, no big deal.

OK, cool, I should've prefaced that with "You probably know ... but in case not ..."

 

[Cesar Battistini]

And you have used face ID??? Hmmm..
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Works flawlessly for me.

http://bgr.com/2017/05/24/galaxy-s8-iris-scanner-hacked-samsung-response/

Yeah so flawless
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Why would they even bother to copy FaceID... they already have something better and easier to implement in TouchID / fingerprint sensor on most Android phones.

Not better! FaceID is WAY more secure

 

[Michael Scrip]

2 minutes into this video Mark Gurman even sets up Face ID to his face and comments how fast it is

https://www.facebook.com/GadgetsWithGurman/videos/vb.116146602364502/127472434565252/?type=2&theater

Thank you for this video. I wish more people had seen this over the last 21 days.

FaceID looks like it works pretty well. I'm interested to use it. Though what choice do I have if I want an iPhone X

I'm not going back to using a passcode full-time like an animal.