KGI: TrueDepth Camera Gives Apple 2.5 Year Lead Over Android Competitors

[symphara]

Touch ID: I have to pick up the phone, hold it so I can touch the button, touch the button, press the button to unlock.

Face ID: By the time I look at my phone it is already unlocked. I do it as a part of the movement, ad I pick up the phone to swipe it up, it scans me.


See, it goes both ways.

No it doesn't. You're stretching reality big time here. Clearly, with FaceID, you need to pick up the phone and look at it, before unlocking, otherwise it won't unlock. Then you have to verify that the icon shows it unlocked, before swiping up.

I don't need to do any of this with the fingerprint sensor. I touch the sensor while I'm lifting the phone and by the time I look at it I'm in my home screen.

Imagine that Apple came up with a new method of getting into the Apple car, using the sunroof instead of the doors. The new Apple car doesn't have doors but it has an amazingly complicated sunroof.

Craig Federighi would get up on stage trying to demo getting in, and he'd fall from the car twice, flat on his face. In a subsequent interview he'd explain it wasn't really a failure, he was inebriated at the time.

KGI Securities analyst Ming-Chi Kuo would tell investors that unlike Android cars, who use regular doors for getting in, the new Apple car is 2.5 years ahead for using the sunroof as the entry method.

Macrumors would write an article about that, and many Apple fans would come out of the woodwork to preach how great is getting into your car through the sunroof. If that's not innovation, I don't know what is, right?

I could tell you what you can do through the sunroof. It's got something to do with those poop emojis. And it's exactly what Apple is selling here.

 

[Jsameds]

No it doesn't. You're stretching reality big time here. Clearly, with FaceID, you need to pick up the phone and look at it, before unlocking, otherwise it won't unlock. Then you have to verify that the icon shows it unlocked, before swiping up.

I don't need to do any of this with the fingerprint sensor. I touch the sensor while I'm lifting the phone and by the time I look at it I'm in my home screen.

Imagine that Apple came up with a new method of getting into the Apple car, using the sunroof instead of the doors. The new Apple car doesn't have doors but it has an amazingly complicated sunroof.

Craig Federighi would get up on stage trying to demo getting in, and he'd fall from the car twice, flat on his face. In a subsequent interview he'd explain it wasn't really a failure, he was inebriated at the time.

KGI Securities analyst Ming-Chi Kuo would tell investors that unlike Android cars, who use regular doors for getting in, the new Apple car is 2.5 years ahead for using the sunroof as the entry method.

Macrumors would write an article about that, and many Apple fans would come out of the woodwork to preach how great is getting into your car through the sunroof. If that's not innovation, I don't know what is, right?

I could tell you what you can do through the sunroof. It's got something to do with those poop emojis. And it's exactly what Apple is selling here.

You're really bad at analogies.

 

[DNichter]

It's pretty simple. Would you prefer an authentication system where you have to manually press a button or something that just authenticates it by looking at it? It's pretty obvious Face ID is a step forward in this regard and will only get better with time. There will be no Touch ID under the screen as it doesn't make much sense to develop it further.
[doublepost=1507036137][/doublepost]

No it doesn't. You're stretching reality big time here. Clearly, with FaceID, you need to pick up the phone and look at it, before unlocking, otherwise it won't unlock. Then you have to verify that the icon shows it unlocked, before swiping up.

I don't need to do any of this with the fingerprint sensor. I touch the sensor while I'm lifting the phone and by the time I look at it I'm in my home screen.

Imagine that Apple came up with a new method of getting into the Apple car, using the sunroof instead of the doors. The new Apple car doesn't have doors but it has an amazingly complicated sunroof.

Craig Federighi would get up on stage trying to demo getting in, and he'd fall from the car twice, flat on his face. In a subsequent interview he'd explain it wasn't really a failure, he was inebriated at the time.

KGI Securities analyst Ming-Chi Kuo would tell investors that unlike Android cars, who use regular doors for getting in, the new Apple car is 2.5 years ahead for using the sunroof as the entry method.

Macrumors would write an article about that, and many Apple fans would come out of the woodwork to preach how great is getting into your car through the sunroof. If that's not innovation, I don't know what is, right?

I could tell you what you can do through the sunroof. It's got something to do with those poop emojis. And it's exactly what Apple is selling here.

See video. It unlocks as it's coming up to his face.

 

[78Bandit]

It's pretty simple. Would you prefer an authentication system where you have to manually press a button or something that just authenticates it by looking at it? It's pretty obvious Face ID is a step forward in this regard and will only get better with time. There will be no Touch ID under the screen as it doesn't make much sense to develop it further.
[doublepost=1507036137][/doublepost]

See video. It unlocks as it's coming up to his face.

Honestly, I would prefer having to touch something manually to trigger the biometric security. I frequently set my phone on my desk or carry it around in my pocket and don't want it constantly looking for my face. I can't imagine but that would negatively impact battery life. I also don't want it unlocking just because I sit down, there may be a personal message displayed (or porn I forgot to close ) that I don't want others in the office to see.

I'm thinking the FaceID system won't be active when the phone is asleep. This is going to require you to hit something, likely the power button or a tap on the screen, to wake it up and start the authentication process. I don't see where that is going to be any more convenient than hitting the home button with TouchID.

 

[DNichter]

Honestly, I would prefer having to touch something manually to trigger the biometric security. I frequently set my phone on my desk or carry it around in my pocket and don't want it constantly looking for my face. I can't imagine but that would negatively impact battery life. I also don't want it unlocking just because I sit down, there may be a personal message displayed (or porn I forgot to close ) that I don't want others in the office to see.

I'm thinking the FaceID system won't be active when the phone is asleep. This is going to require you to hit something, likely the power button or a tap on the screen, to wake it up and start the authentication process. I don't see where that is going to be any more convenient than hitting the home button with TouchID.

If it's on your desk or in your pocket, it won't be constantly looking at your face. You need to tap to wake it or raise to wake for it to activate. There is also a setting not to show previews for messages although the X does this by default I believe and only shows the preview when the Face ID person looks at it. I guess the porn part is fair although I'd imagine if you are close enough to authenticate your phone, you would see someone else trying to use your phone. I don't know, I certainly respect everyone's decision to not like Face ID, I just think it's way overblown.

 

[The Game 161]

Not a surprise given the tech in this from apple. Can’t wait to try it out.

 

[geoff5093]

Apple is setting the stage for the next decade of what people expect from smartphones.

Really? What exactly about the iPhone X is so revolutionary that it will be what competitors look to copy over the next 10 years? If I recall the only things that stand out on the X that aren't on other phones are FaceID, 3D Touch, and some software features. It's nothing like the original iPhone.

 

[flat five]

What I want is an honest evaluation. A basic 'works/doesn't work' overall judgment, followed by caveats if they are required. What I don't want is either Apple bashing or Apple fawning. Right now there apparently isn't a trustworthy functional Face recognition or Iris scan system that can't be fooled or doesn't have reliability or ease of use issues. If you disagree with that statement provide independent proof supporting your position.

It may be that Face ID will have many/most/all of these problems as well and if it does then so be it. I would like to know before I buy something this expensive though. This is supposed to be a surprise for my wife, I'd like it not to be an unpleasant one.

i was joking in that post btw..

that aside, it depends on when you're wanting to buy iPhone X as to how reliable the reviews will be.
if you pre-order, the reviews will be not-too-helpful..
after a week, there will be various reviews and hands on videos which you'll likely need to combine a few in order to equal a balanced review.. after a month, i think most potential buyers will be able to buy with confidence that the system works well -or- know not to buy..
so yeah, the longer you wait to buy, the more reliable info you'll have to base off of.
[doublepost=1507040860][/doublepost]

No it doesn't. You're stretching reality big time here. Clearly, with FaceID, you need to pick up the phone and look at it, before unlocking, otherwise it won't unlock. Then you have to verify that the icon shows it unlocked, before swiping up.

c.Federighi said in an interview that you can swipe up prior to looking..
like- as you're raising the phone, you swipe then when you look at it, it's (effectively) already unlocked&open and ready for use.

whether or not it works well in that regards is yet to be seen but there is conflicting info out there by Apple execs who state a different description of how to use faceID than you are.

 

[kemal]

The list of things I'd rather have from Apple keeps growing. OK. I finally bought the watch.

 

[Dirtydutch]

By next year FaceID will probably be better and most likely just as reliable as TouchID. TouchID had its first iteration hiccups then everyone fell in love with it, I'd imagine the same will apply here

 

[DNichter]

By next year FaceID will probably be better and most likely just as reliable as TouchID. TouchID had its first iteration hiccups then everyone fell in love with it, I'd imagine the same will apply here

There were also a ton of complaints prior to its release, just like there are now with Face ID. Now people can't live without it.

 

[Dirtydutch]

There were also a ton of complaints prior to its release, just like there are now with Face ID. Now people can't live without it.

Exactly, I believe it will be a seamless transition for most, maybe slower for some, but I believe as it is perfected it will quickly become a non issue

 

[norbinhouston]

I know right amoled screens and bezeless designs we’ve never seen those before.

Full screen multitouch interface all seamlessly working together? Never seen those before. I think the reason Android nerds are so quick to point out that Samsung came out with some features first is because deep down, they know Samsung copied the original iPhone verbatim. And its a way to cope with them having a cheap knock off of the iPhone. lol.

 

[EdT]

Really? What exactly about the iPhone X is so revolutionary that it will be what competitors look to copy over the next 10 years? If I recall the only things that stand out on the X that aren't on other phones are FaceID, 3D Touch, and some software features. It's nothing like the original iPhone.

Here's what is potentially 'revolutionary', a term that I don't like using:

• The processor is a lot more powerful than anyone else's.
• It has co-processors specifically suited, but not limited to, face recognition. Other manufacturers may have co-processors but 3rd party testing does not rate them as high.
• The crux of the whole Face ID concept: it has IR sources and rececievers that no other phone has. No other phone has the processing power yet. This allows the phone to convert IR dots that are displayed on your face and compared to a 3D face mask previously stored. Similar to how Hollywood maps CGI onto actors faces and bodies.

I know that some who post here will deny that the processor difference exists. I'm not going to bother arguing that unless they show INDEPENDENT test results showing parity or near parity.

On the other hand I'm not going to say that the processor speed and capabilities along with the facial sensors are a magic band-aid. The system could still have lots of reasons it won't work. I don't know and other than a few people world wide neither does anyone else.

The trick with the animated emojis is just that, right now, but who knows what some developer ends up doing with the technology. I have a feeling it was used as a test for 3D facial reading and included simply because the work had already been done in the process of testing the face reading technology and software.

If you prefer Android/Samsung fine. But don't bad mouth a different product just because you don't use it.

 

[Shanghaichica]

Full screen multitouch interface all seamlessly working together? Never seen those before. I think the reason Android nerds are so quick to point out that Samsung came out with some features first is because deep down, they know Samsung copied the original iPhone verbatim. And its a way to cope with them having a cheap knock off of the iPhone. lol.

We aren’t talking about the original iPhone. We are taking about the iPhone X and apart from the animojis everything else has been seen before.
[doublepost=1507045127][/doublepost]

Here's what is potentially 'revolutionary', a term that I don't like using:

• The processor is a lot more powerful than anyone else's.
• It has co-processors specifically suited, but not limited to, face recognition. Other manufacturers may have co-processors but 3rd party testing does not rate them as high.
• The crux of the whole Face ID concept: it has IR sources and rececievers that no other phone has. No other phone has the processing power yet. This allows the phone to convert IR dots that are displayed on your face and compared to a 3D face mask previously stored. Similar to how Hollywood maps CGI onto actors faces and bodies.

I know that some who post here will deny that the processor difference exists. I'm not going to bother arguing that unless they show INDEPENDENT test results showing parity or near parity.

On the other hand I'm not going to say that the processor speed and capabilities along with the facial sensors are a magic band-aid. The system could still have lots of reasons it won't work. I don't know and other than a few people world wide neither does anyone else.

The trick with the animated emojis is just that, right now, but who knows what some developer ends up doing with the technology. I have a feeling it was used as a test for 3D facial reading and included simply because the work had already been done in the process of testing the face reading technology and software.

If you prefer Android/Samsung fine. But don't bad mouth a different product just because you don't use it.

The A11 X is indeed an impressive chip but all that power will mostly go unused.

 

[DNichter]

We aren’t talking about the original iPhone. We are taking about the iPhone X and apart from the animojis everything else has been seen before.
[doublepost=1507045127][/doublepost]
The A11 X is indeed an impressive chip but all that power will mostly go unused.

Except for the point of this forum. The TrueDepth camera system and 3D facial recognition. No phone has had this before.

 

[symphara]

It's pretty simple. Would you prefer an authentication system where you have to manually press a button or something that just authenticates it by looking at it? It's pretty obvious Face ID is a step forward in this regard and will only get better with time. There will be no Touch ID under the screen as it doesn't make much sense to develop it further.
[doublepost=1507036137][/doublepost]

See video. It unlocks as it's coming up to his face.

I've seen this video before. Looking at it, and others, and the presentation, what's striking to me is how unnaturally high they hold the phone for the unlocking to work. I never hold the phone so high unless perhaps I take a photo. I certainly don't do it when I unlock it. I don't even want to look at my phone to unlock it, I want my phone to be unlocked by the time I look at it.

It's just not going to be as convenient as the fingerprint reader. You can put as much lipstick as you want on this pig, it still won't fly.

I'm not saying this is a deal-breaker or that the iPhone X should be automatically discounted because of FaceID.

What I'm saying is that, assuming FaceID will work well (which is far from certain and left to be seen):

• FaceID is a more convoluted method of unlocking compared to using a good fingerprint sensor
• it's a more complicated (thus worse) user experience
• Android won't copy it, it has absolutely no reason to - notice how Samsung's face/iris unlocking methods are widely considered worse user experiences and nobody rushed to copy them, and that Android had face scanning a long time ago and nobody really wanted it
• bottom line is that basically nobody wants this kind of thing - contrast how this whole year everyone has been talking about the in-glass fingerprint sensor

Apple is not 2.5 years ahead. If they managed to deliver the in-glass sensor my guess they would had been maybe 0.5 years ahead, depending on whether the 2018 February-April Android flagship renewal will deliver it. As it stands, Apple regressed.

 

[aevan]

Can I ask you a question, have you tried say an S8 or another phone that uses iris or anything else?

Trust me the experience is not the same. I have tried both. Touchid is a natural user experience for a tool Made for .....a hand...... Faceid would be natural for a TV....

Face ID is a natural use experience for a tool made for.... looking at its screen.


The way I believe it works is that it unlocks in a natural looking position. Unless you use your phones at a 30 degree angle, Face ID should work without you even thinking about it. I wouldn't compare iPhone X to S8 or any other phone, without trying it first.
[doublepost=1507046152][/doublepost]

I've seen this video before. Looking at it, and others, and the presentation, what's striking to me is how unnaturally high they hold the phone for the unlocking to work.

We can assume it's just for demonstration purposes. They already said as long as the front facing camera can catch enough of your face, it will work. So, just open your front camera and hold your phone as you would, naturally. Is 70% of your face (nose, eyes, cheeks) anywhere in the frame? Sure it is. Face ID will work when you hold your phone naturally.

Unlike Samsung, it doesn't have to take a frontal shot of your eyeballs, it just needs to capture the topology of your face, from any angle.

It's just not going to be as convenient as the fingerprint reader.

Remains to be seen, of course, but it's most likely going to be better.

I'm not saying this is a deal-breaker or that the iPhone X should be automatically discounted because of FaceID.

iPhone X shouldn't be automatically discounted because of anything, before someone actually gets a chance to use it. But for a lot of people, Face ID will probably become the reason to get it.

• FaceID is a more convoluted method of unlocking compared to using a good fingerprint sensor

Remains to be seen, but most likely it's a more natural and easier method compared to using a good fingerprint sensor. You're really going out of your way to somehow prove that doing nothing other than looking at your screen is somehow more complicated than holding a finger on a specified area (which is on the back on a lot of phones, by the way).

• it's a more complicated (thus worse) user experience

If it works as advertised, you don't have to do anything. Pick up your phone and start using it. The only way to make it more simple is for it to read your mind.

You're stretching it. A lot.

• Android won't copy it, it has absolutely no reason to - notice how Samsung's face/iris unlocking methods are widely considered worse user experiences and nobody rushed to copy them, and that Android had face scanning a long time ago and nobody really wanted it

Yeah. Android also had fingerprint scanning no one copied - until Apple made their version that, you know, wasn't crap. Same here. We know Samsung will come out with some S-Face or whatever next year, and then Huawei will make their literal iPhone clone with it, and soon everyone will use it. History repeats itself.

When everyone wants a face unlock in 2019, try to remember this conversation.

• bottom line is that basically nobody wants this kind of thing - contrast how this whole year everyone has been talking about the in-glass fingerprint sensor

Because average people see the puck, not where it's going.

Apple is not 2.5 years ahead. If they managed to deliver the in-glass sensor my guess they would had been maybe 0.5 years ahead, depending on whether the 2018 February-April Android flagship renewal will deliver it. As it stands, Apple regressed.

Yeah, a hollywood-style realtime 3D mapping of your face that is more reliable and secure really looks like regression.


With every change, there are people who are against it and claim it will have negative consequences. Happened before, with electricity, trains.... Touch ID....

 

[DNichter]

I've seen this video before. Looking at it, and others, and the presentation, what's striking to me is how unnaturally high they hold the phone for the unlocking to work. I never hold the phone so high unless perhaps I take a photo. I certainly don't do it when I unlock it. I don't even want to look at my phone to unlock it, I want my phone to be unlocked by the time I look at it.

It's just not going to be as convenient as the fingerprint reader. You can put as much lipstick as you want on this pig, it still won't fly.

I'm not saying this is a deal-breaker or that the iPhone X should be automatically discounted because of FaceID.

What I'm saying is that, assuming FaceID will work well (which is far from certain and left to be seen):

• FaceID is a more convoluted method of unlocking compared to using a good fingerprint sensor
• it's a more complicated (thus worse) user experience
• Android won't copy it, it has absolutely no reason to - notice how Samsung's face/iris unlocking methods are widely considered worse user experiences and nobody rushed to copy them, and that Android had face scanning a long time ago and nobody really wanted it
• bottom line is that basically nobody wants this kind of thing - contrast how this whole year everyone has been talking about the in-glass fingerprint sensor

Apple is not 2.5 years ahead. If they managed to deliver the in-glass sensor my guess they would had been maybe 0.5 years ahead, depending on whether the 2018 February-April Android flagship renewal will deliver it. As it stands, Apple regressed.

I saw it differently. He brings it up to use it and it's already unlocked. He moved it around randomly pretty low and it was unlocked. Looks like it works great.

 

[aevan]

I saw it differently. He brings it up to use it and it's already unlocked. He moved it around randomly pretty low and it was unlocked. Looks like it works great.

Yeah, a lot of people assume it's not unlocked at this point. It is. I do believe people will change their minds completely when they start using it. It will unlock without you even thinking about unlocking it.

 

[DNichter]

Yeah, a lot of people assume it's not unlocked at this point. It is. I do believe people will change their minds completely when they start using it. It will unlock without you even thinking about unlocking it.

Exactly, that's the whole point. You won't even have to think about it. Just pick it up and swipe to unlock.

 

[symphara]

Face ID is a natural use experience for a tool made for.... looking at its screen.

You twist yourself in knots to defend this clearly worse unlocking method, and I can say: fingerprint unlock is a natural user experience for a tool made for ... touching it before looking at its screen. Which is always the case. Even with FaceID you need to touch the device.

For all your half-baked arguments, you've never managed to refute one simple thing:

When I pick my phone up to use it, by the time I look at it, it's already unlocked, because I touch the fingerprint reader as part of the motion.

With FaceID, this is not the case. Not in any demo we've been shown. Not in any interview published.

With FaceID, you need to lift the phone, look at it, ensure the lock icon is unlocked (otherwise swiping won't work), then swipe up.

I know you can write a million words to explain how black is white, but you can't explain how FaceID is more simple and more natural. It's not.

 

[Dropbrian]

Yeah, a lot of people assume it's not unlocked at this point. It is. I do believe people will change their minds completely when they start using it. It will unlock without you even thinking about unlocking it.

Do you actually have a working iPhone X to test out the face unlock system? Are you speaking from personal experience? Because you keep telling other people that they don't really know, and that they're "stretching it", yet unless you now have a working iPhone X you're using/testing, YOU are conjecturing AT LEAST as much as they are...

 

[ackmondual]

They're also setting the stage for their next iPhones to start at $1300!

 

[EdT]

We aren’t talking about the original iPhone. We are taking about the iPhone X and apart from the animojis everything else has been seen before.
[doublepost=1507045127][/doublepost]
The A11 X is indeed an impressive chip but all that power will mostly go unused.

For now. Who knows what app will use it or how?