Kuo: If Face ID is 'Well Received,' It's Likely 2018 iPhones Will Fully Adopt TrueDepth Camera

[stanman64]

I have a feeling that Touch ID is gone just like the headphone jack.

I don't disagree, but I could also see Apple bringing it back if they can get it implemented under the display. Sure, Apple already made a point about Face ID being much more secure - so they would never go back to Touch ID right?! Nope. I don't think they would go back to using Touch ID exclusively, but Touch ID + Face ID Authentication together would be about as secure as it gets in a mobile device.

 

[citysnaps]

Then why is the savings not passed on to the consumer? If its indeed more efficient, less parts, less expensive, why is the model with less options more expensive. Particularly in your claim that it is a secondary advantage to the main goal.

Add TouchID and the cost of that plus margin would be added to the price of the phone.

As an aside, the R&D costs (whether in-house or via a vendor) of developing the extremely sophisticated and high performance miniature 3D camera used in the X was likely enormous.

As a result, the cost of that module (plus Apple's margin), is greater than the cost of the TouchId module. Thus the price increase.

 

[Ankou_Sabat]

Rumors leaked today that Apple, in effort to address the massive evil twin problem of the new Face ID will offer free surgery to one of any evil twin pair that can’t successfully secure their iPhone X from their twin. Alterations via plastic surgery to nose, chin, and eye line were deemed less expensive for the few thousand evil twin pairs than adding back in Touch ID on top of Face ID in future iPhones for every user.

In other news, buggy whips will soon be supplied to all new car buyers, in case of break downs and towing by horse. Spokesman for buggy whip industry, in rural Amish Ohio, hailed the news as saving the industry.

There are about 1.8 billion Muslims in the world. Lets assume half are female and 3/4 use a hijab/burqa/some form of facecover. 675 million people is not a small market. 285 million people estimated are blind in the world neither a small market.

Tell those guys to just deal with it and see how far you get.

 

[28monkeys]

Touch ID is gone. DEAL WITH IT! >

 

[Ankou_Sabat]

Add TouchID and the cost of that plus margin would be added to the price of the phone.

As an aside, the R&D costs (whether in-house or via a vendor) of developing the extremely sophisticated and high performance miniature 3D camera used in the X was likely enormous.

As a result, the cost of that module (plus Apple's margin), is greater than the cost of the TouchId module. Thus the price increase.

As an addition the cost would go up sure. The camera investment and AR was going to happen regardless. But the removal of the TouchID did not offset the price at all. At this point the TouchID is so ubiquitous (and isn't even a physical button now) that its removal doesn't represent a significant cost gain as much as a user experience and options reduction as to justify its complete removal. Removing options removes market segment which is a higher variable than cost savings for profit.

 

[HEK]

I don't disagree, but I could also see Apple bringing it back if they can get it implemented under the display. Sure, Apple already made a point about Face ID being much more secure - so they would never go back to Touch ID right?! Nope. I don't think they would go back to using Touch ID exclusively, but Touch ID + Face ID Authentication together would be about as secure as it gets in a mobile device.

Apple has stated touch and face ID are not about security, they are about convenience. It doesn’t get more secure than long alpha numeric password. Problem is people hate that and don’t use it. But it is secure. Some companies don’t allow their employees to use phones without passcodes when used for buisiness.

Course with companies like Equifax around, securing your iPhone is of little value. There have always been some iPhone users where Touch ID did not work well, due to their particular situations. Same will be true for Face ID. If the goal is to have multiple redundancy and a device that will solve each and everyone’s personal desires I would say Apple has failed for last ten years. Based on what I am hearing here, Apple should have left the physical keyboard on the phone as well as screen one. That way users would have had a choice.

Clearly Apple failed big time in caring for users.

 

[xalea]

Why is it that woman looking at her phone and she looks upset? Like it doesn't recognize her with her new look.

She looks like she's about to throw it into a bonfire.

 

[citysnaps]

As an addition the cost would go up sure. The camera investment and AR was going to happen regardless. But the removal of the TouchID did not offset the price at all. At this point the TouchID is so ubiquitous (and isn't even a physical button now) that its removal doesn't represent a significant cost gain as much as a user experience and options reduction as to justify its complete removal. Removing options removes market segment which is a higher variable than cost savings for profit.

I don't think you know that. Unless you know the cost plus margin of the sophisticated 3D camera, and, the TouchID module (whether existing or under the display), and whether that cost is significant, or not.

I could be wrong, but I suspect Apple might know a little more about their strategic goals, existing markets, potential new markets opened via AR, market segments, component and manufacturing costs, etc., than you.

 

[0lf]

I find that hard to believe considering the rumors

Facepalm
Some people really put more weight to rumors than official statements.

I'm also going to wait for next year's 2nd generation model.

Even TouchID had a first iteration in the iPhone 5s and then at the iPhone 6 launch they talked specifically about 2nd gen TouchID that was even faster and more accurate than before.

2nd gen started with 6s. So 2 years to wait for you.

 

[Crzyrio]

No need for that. I go old school with the passcode by hand. Not a big deal, really. Winter is normally cold where I live at with hat, scarf and peacoat or heavy coat. If I needed to check something such as a text message or incoming alert, that's where a smartwatch would in handy during that season. Just pull up my sleeve without checking the phone. Plus, the vibration on the watch will alert me since I can't hear it.

This is exactly the point though. YOu just accepted that Touch ID won't work in these situations. The same way Face ID won't work in certain situations.

If anything there will be more situations where Touch ID would usually not be usable than Face ID.

 

[MrX8503]

It's incredible the criticism Face ID is getting before anyone has gotten the chance to use it. Most likely, it'll be as good or better than Touch ID. Just wait for it to be released and use it for yourself.

I predict that Face ID will be common place and it'll feel like you're not unlocking the device at all.

 

[HEK]

There are about 1.8 billion Muslims in the world. Lets assume half are female and 3/4 use a hijab/burqa/some form of facecover. 675 million people is not a small market. 285 million people estimated are blind in the world neither a small market.

Tell those guys to just deal with it and see how far you get.

Blind can’t drive cars, neither can Muslim women. They seem to deal with that.

Whenever newer tech comes along, some will lament the passing of older and previously accommodated old tech. This debate, like most others will be decided by sales volume, and overall user acceptance. There are many phone choices out there. If one doesn’t work right for certain individuals another will. If Apple were the only game in town, and made but one model of phone, I would see far more merit to this debate.

However since, other companies will fill a need Apple decides to leave open, great. Trying to stick every possible choice into a tiny computing device, to fit every diverse need or want seems rather foolish. We don’t see an suv/pickup/ race car/ minivan/convertible/hybrid/compact vehicle manufactured by any car company.

Make a product do some things really well and you will sell it. Make a product that has to be all things to all people and watch it fail. With current screen technology packing in so many features is technically not feasible. At a design level, feasibility level, choices have to be made. Wishing for a feature does not make it doable. You have to manufacture it and it has to work. Saying a company abandons it’s users, fails, or other such nebulous nonsense speak to a lack of understanding of issues involved.

If people truely believe that substituting Face I’d for Touch ID is that critical, please go to your garage and invent, develop, engineer a solution. It’s been done before.

 

[Ankou_Sabat]

Blind can’t drive cars, neither can Muslim women. They seem to deal with that.

Whenever newer tech comes along, some will lament the passing of older and previously accommodated old tech. This debate, like most others will be decided by sales volume, and overall user acceptance. There are many phone choices out there. If one doesn’t work right for certain individuals another will. If Apple were the only game in town, and made but one model of phone, I would see far more merit to this debate.

However since, other companies will fill a need Apple decides to leave open, great. Trying to stick every possible choice into a tiny computing device, to fit every diverse need or want seems rather foolish. We don’t see an suv/pickup/ race car/ minivan/convertible/hybrid/compact vehicle manufactured by any car company.

Make a product do some things really well and you will sell it. Make a product that has to be all things to all people and watch it fail. With current screen technology packing in so many features is technically not feasible. At a design level, feasibility level, choices have to be made. Wishing for a feature does not make it doable. You have to manufacture it and it has to work. Saying a company abandons it’s users, fails, or other such nebulous nonsense speak to a lack of understanding of issues involved.

If people truely believe that substituting Face I’d for Touch ID is that critical, please go to your garage and invent, develope, engineer a solution. It’s been done before.

No what you're talking about is removing core customers. To quantify it blind people and muslim women already use iPhones. What you're talking about is actively dropping current consumers, not turning away potential markets.

TouchID is already there, there is nothing to "re-invent".

Again, I didn't say FaceID was bad and a failure. I said the removal of "options" is lazy and consumer hostile. There are plenty of arguments for including both TouchID and FaceID together.

 

[HEK]

She looks like she's about to throw it into a bonfire.

If alla wanted women to have phones he would have flown down on his winged white horse and handed them one. Non believer western infidal technology....bahhh

 

[WatchFromAfar]

To give one slightly odd example of an unconventional microphone, at a gig I saw and heard Elvis Costello sing into his guitar as a little novelty trick and it was surprising how well it picked up his voice. The gain was obviously set very high and the breath from his voice over the guitar strings caused enough vibration in them to be picked up by the pickups and was well defined enough to be heard as his voice in reasonable fidelity.

I'm sorry, you were fooled by stage trickery. A guitar pick-up is a magnet wrapped in copper wire. If he breathed hard enough it may be powerful to vibrate the string, but you'd just hear the note of the string. Not he's voice coming from the guitar because pick-ups aren't microphones.

 

[HEK]

No what you're talking about is removing core customers. To quantify it blind people and muslim women already use iPhones. What you're talking about is actively dropping current consumers, not turning away potential markets.

TouchID is already there, there is nothing to "re-invent".

Again, I didn't say FaceID was bad and a failure. I said the removal of "options" is lazy and consumer hostile. There are plenty of arguments for including both TouchID and FaceID together.

You refuse to understand the phone went to different screen type. The Touch layers were not even in the older screens. In order to make Touch ID work robustly, a separate round screen was needed, remember that circle thingy. So if you want that feature added to new screen, you do have to invent new tech.

I for one, as I suspect many other feel the same do not want a Touch ID button on back of phone. It’s bad enough that the camera technology, series of lenses and sensors is thicker than phone. But I don’t want an overall fatter phone either. So what to do, what to do?

Every person is a potential new market, when new device is introduced. Just because they had the old one, doesn’t mean they will automatically get the new one. Brand loyalty is fickle. So I strongly disagree that current users are not potential markets customers.

With that said, once again having both may be wonderful, probably cost even more, but hey it’s only money. With your passion for having both, i entrees you to design and engineer a screen that can do everything. Just don’t leave off any features or compromise thelook of the screen, brightness, color gamut, true tone, vibrancy, luminosity, etc.

 

[macTW]

Agreed, with one change:

Everyone criticizing it have yet to use it themselves.

True. I was giving flexibility to media members who saw Apple employees at the hands on demo use it.

 

[Ankou_Sabat]

You refuse to understand the phone went to different screen type. The Touch layers were not even in the older screens. In order to make Touch ID work robustly, a separate round screen was needed, remember that circle thingy. So if you want that feature added to new screen, you do have to invent new tech.

I for one, as I suspect many other feel the same do not want a Touch ID button on back of phone. It’s bad enough that the camera technology, series of lenses and sensors is thicker than phone. But I don’t want an overall fatter phone either. So what to do, what to do?

Every person is a potential new market, when new device is introduced. Just because they had the old one, doesn’t mean they will automatically get the new one. Brand loyalty is fickle. So I strongly disagree that current users are not potential markets customers.

I am absolutely not insinuating brand loyalty or automatic purchase. Quite the contrary, by this decision they are making it more frustrating for brand loyalist who cannot accept a total removal of a core component feature. Apple's problem isn't new adoption anymore, its keeping current customers. They are already at a point of full saturation, we see that with the iPad sales. Their problem now is keeping core users. Removing options removes those people and as fickle as you state brand loyalty isn't enough anymore. Thats called consumer hostility. Giving up the pursuit is called lazy.

The technology already exists for the finger print reader under screen. It has not been perfected in time for this phone's release. The article insinuates that rather than continue pursuing it, they suspect that Apple will drop this entirely. I'm trying to argue that the pursuit is still worth it to keep core customers already in the segment and keep customers who cannot adopt to a FaceID alone authentication mechanism. iPhone 8 is still an option yes, but for how long? The article insinuates TouchID is going away totally and that would be a bad business decision for not just the current customers but anyone who totally cannot use this option alone.

 

[odvan]

Wet hands and gloves. There you have it, two of them.

With casual gloves you can't use iPhone.
With wet hands you still can use pass, can't u?

But more important what about sunny California and you have sunglasses face ID wouldn't work with?

 

[IJ Reilly]

You really should have read the rest of the comment because context was given to the list making your comment irrelevant to the point that was actually being made.

I read all of it. The context didn't change the fact that your examples were poor.

 

[HEK]

I am absolutely not insinuating brand loyalty or automatic purchase. Quite the contrary, by this decision they are making it more frustrating for brand loyalist who cannot accept a total removal of a core component feature. Apple's problem isn't new adoption anymore, its keeping current customers. They are already at a point of full saturation, we see that with the iPad sales. Their problem now is keeping core users. Removing options removes those people and as fickle as you state brand loyalty isn't enough anymore. Thats called consumer hostility. Giving up the pursuit is called lazy.

The technology already exists for the finger print reader under screen. It has not been perfected in time for this phone's release. The article insinuates that rather than continue pursuing it, they suspect that Apple will drop this entirely. I'm trying to argue that the pursuit is still worth it to keep core customers already in the segment and keep customers who cannot adopt to a FaceID alone authentication mechanism. iPhone 8 is still an option yes, but for how long? The article insinuates TouchID is going away totally and that would be a bad business decision for not just the current customers but anyone who totally cannot use this option alone.

Not perfected yet. You know sometimes some things never get perfected. Flying cars was a wonderful idea in the 1950s, even the Jetson’s had one. But reality is a harsh mistress. The energy consumption of trying to levitate a one ton vehicle just wasn’t practical. Physics got in the way of a great idea.

So don’t assume that if Apple pursues this in screen touch tech, that it will find a viable solution.
[doublepost=1505921499][/doublepost]

With casual gloves you can't use iPhone.
With wet hands you still can use pass, can't u?

But more important what about sunny California and you have sunglasses face ID wouldn't work with?

face ID uses IR. So unless sunglasses block IR, and most don’t, the camera will see eyes just fine through sunglasses.

 

[IJ Reilly]

It's not about that in my opinion. It's a about Apple taking away a convenient and working solution (ex head-phone jack, touchID, ubs ports on mac's) when most users are not ready. How many of those things will the consumers bear? I think the Apple view, where they know better than their customers, is very close to biting them.

Sure it is, it's about nothing else. Users were supposedly not ready for the removal of the floppy drive. They were supposedly not ready for the removal of the optical drive. They were supposedly not ready for the removal of serial ports. They were supposedly not ready for the removal the headphone jack. And so on and so on and so on. Apple has a long history of making tech decisions that supposedly were so far ahead of what users wanted that they were definitely going to blow up in their faces, this time for sure. In the end all of these moves were not only accepted, but turned out to be ahead of the curve. Odd that after all these decades of Apple's philosophy being made so abundantly clear that they can still be criticized for doing what they do best. We can call this another variation on the long-running theme of "Apple is doomed." Never gets old, I guess.

 

[antonis]

Logical proof is that Apple has been designing the NPU of the A11 for three years, and they wouldn’t need a neural processor capable of 600 billion ops/sec if they weren’t implementing FaceID in this year’s iPhone.

The technology behind FaceID is exceedingly complex, and not something jammed in during the last few months to replace a non-working TouchID under glass.

Apple knows FaceID is better than TouchID for more of their users than would TouchID be better than FaceID. Months of user testing convinced them this was the case.

Not all rumors are true, though some can be effective at misleading competitors down a useless dead end. Will anyone be able to get Qualcomm’s sensor to work? Is it manufacturable at scale? Why couldn’t Samsung get it to work, leaving them no choice but the universally panned fingerprint sensor on the back? (And how many think the backside of Samsung’s latest models are in any way pleasing to look at?)

I expect to see TouchID on the 8S (9?) next year for reasons I’ve mentioned previously, as well as FaceID on iPad, iMac and MacBook, in due course. I disagree with Kuo that TouchID under display is in Apple’s future; why bother, it’s been superseded by better technology. Other manufacturers will be scrambling to try to get 3D infrared depth imaging working for any purpose, let alone for biometric authentication.

Kuo's just hedging with this “public acceptance” nonsense—that’s just analyst-speak for I’ll be right either way. (Similar to the classic weather forecast: if a 50% chance of rain is predicted, is the forecast right or wrong, if it rains? If it doesn’t?)

tldr; rumors aren’t facts, FaceID is awesome, and stick to supply chain rumors Kuo.

They were obviously working on FaceID for a long time, but that's not a proof that the rumor suggesting their efforts to implement under-screen TouchID is false (after all, under-screen TouchID is also a cutting-edge tech). FaceID might be a technological achievement but that does not guarantee its overall advantage over TouchID regarding actual everyday usability. This is something that remains to be seen when the actual reviews of the device come out.

As a final note, let's not forget that the one authentication method is not in any way a choice versus the other. IMO it would make more sense a device implementing both.

 

[nylon]

No you said Steve would have moved heaven and Earth to make TouchID under display happen. You played the Steve card hard, and implied a Tim fail.

I also disagree that it would have been more of a wow factor than FaceID. People already take for granted that if they put their thumb on the front of their iPhone it unlocks; does changing where that thumb can be really seem like that big a jump?

You can read it as you wish but it comes across as projection. Steve would have considered that Face ID is inelegant as compared with Touch ID.

Touch ID is a one step process. Scan the finger and it takes you to the home screen. According to Apple's own demo as well as the media demos Face ID is a two step process. Wait for the phone to scan your face and unlock and then slide to get to the home screen.

Face ID seems like something they were forced to come up with to cope with the issue of not being able to engineer Touch ID into the display. And yes, Touch ID under the display would have had much more of an impact given no one has done that yet. Facial recognition has been around on Android devices (even if poorly implemented) for a few years now. So when Apple introduced their version the impact of innovation is muted. All Apple did here was miniaturize PixelSense's technology.

 

[HEK]

Sure it is, it's about nothing else. Users were supposedly not ready for the removal of the floppy drive. They were supposedly not ready for the removal of the optical drive. They were supposedly not ready for the removal of serial ports. They were supposedly not ready for the removal the headphone jack. And so on and so on and so on. Apple has a long history of making tech decisions that supposedly were so far ahead of what users wanted that they were definitely going to blow up in their faces, this time for sure. In the end all of these moves were not only accepted, but turned out to be ahead of the curve. Odd that after all these decades of Apple's philosophy being made so abundantly clear that they can still be criticized for doing what they do best. We can call this another variation on the long-running theme of "Apple is doomed." Never gets old, I guess.

Well said