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Hah. Brilliant.

Nested folders in the dock have nothing to do with the core of OS X as a unix system, and their absence doesn't mean OS X is crippled.

"Pro-users" use the command line. There can be no other way.

Yeah, that post was bizarre. When you think unix, think command line. More accurately, think posix. Do not think "gui" and certainly don't think "customizable gui." More like "guis." For most of the time I was using unix there were a dozen window managers battling it out, and there was certainly no clear standard. Some permitted tons of customization (fvwm2) and some did not (cde).
 
Update...

As the original poster. I'd like to make it clear that I don't think Leopard is BAD and I had no issue with working through the blue screen of death and my install taking over 5 hours. My initial point was that Leopard, in it's current state is NOT better than Tiger (IMHO).

My 2c

PS. I agree about Fan Boys. Take the goggles of people, there are pros and cons to everything. Everyone here is a Mac fan, just because we point out omissions, faults or features we don't like (or need) doesn't make us any less mac fans.

PPS To the posters that are unintelligently saying, "if you don't like stacks, don't use them" You guys are missing the point, Stacks has not only added a redundant and tacky feature, it's removed one that thousands of Mac Users have used for ages.

PPPS. hcuar "lol... I bet they will get rid of stacks since you asked. " You are obviously unaware of the literally hundreds of features,functions and fixes that Apple have addressed BECAUSE OF FEEDBACK. That's why Apple ISN'T another microsoft. Apple DO LISTEN.
 
Nobody is forcing you to use stacks. Just dont use it then. The doc can also be enlarged..so look..theres 2 of your issues solved. haha

Please, show me how I can get the old nested behavior back and I will gladly give up stacks. Oh, you can't? I guess i am being forced into using this feature.

This makes me laugh. Pro users would use a more superior method of launching apps...Quicksilver or the new improved Spotlight. Using a Dock folder to start programs (very WindowsXP-ish IMO) is just an old bad habit.

It also kills quick ways to to get to documents. No, I don't want to have to use spotlight to find the document each time I want to open it and I don't give a damn about what you consider "bad habits."
 
the one thing that i hate about leopard is that people are always complaining about new features. these are the same people that complained when tiger was first released and chose to stay with panther. now you are saying how tiger was so much better. i think what people really hate is change. you should all just go back to using os 8 or 9 because they were obviously the best. if you have a problem, just submit an improvement to apple and the will consider it. you dont need to complain all day long on forums, especially when you are complaining about small problems that can be fixed with one line of code. for the rest of us who really like leopard and think it is an improvement over tiger, keep you opinions to yourself.


ps. spotlight is so much faster for opening any program, file of folder than embedded folders in the dock!!
 
the one thing that i hate about leopard is that people are always complaining about new features.
So do you hate Leopard or the people who complain about it? ;)

these are the same people that complained when tiger was first released and chose to stay with panther. now you are saying how tiger was so much better. i think what people really hate is change.
This is true, people do resist change. However, some of these comments seem to be well reasoned and logical; not all of it is fear of change.

you should all just go back to using os 8 or 9 because they were obviously the best. if you have a problem, just submit an improvement to apple and the will consider it.
I haven't read anyone mention this yet, so please don't use ad absurdum fallacies here.

you dont need to complain all day long on forums, especially when you are complaining about small problems that can be fixed with one line of code.
No one forced you to read this thread or post in it. If you feel so offended, then just back away and read a different part of the site. The forum members have a right to complain about relevant issues if they wish. Be respectful.
for the rest of us who really like leopard and think it is an improvement over tiger, keep you opinions to yourself.
Again, people have a right to their opinions and a right to express them in a forum. No one here has broken any of the RULES, so they're as free to post their disappointments with Leopard as much as you are free to not read them.
 
I use Stacks the same way I use Windows quick launch, by placing shortcuts (or in Apple's case: aliases) for my most important programs there. I would never want an Applications stack that would show every application in that particular folder. I only use 7 of the 30 programs in there.

It only takes a few mintes to create a folder and place aliases in it for the programs you want. With all the time people have wasted ranting about it here, they could've already had a perfectly working stack of shortcuts for their programs created.

Note: The Address Book is not one of the programs I ever use.
 
I use Stacks the same way I use Windows quick launch, by placing shortcuts (or in Apple's case: aliases) for my most important programs there. I would never want an Applications stack that would show every application in that particular folder. I only use 7 of the 30 programs in there.

It only takes a few mintes to create a folder and place aliases in it for the programs you want. With all the time people have wasted ranting about it here, they could've already had a perfectly working stack of shortcuts for their programs created.

Note: The Address Book is not one of the programs I ever use.

You're misunderstanding the purpose of stacks and nested dock folder lists. The 7 programs you use out of the 30 that you have on your computer are put in the dock directly for easiest access. There's no point in making a stack of your 7 most frequently used apps, they should already be in your dock. Speaking just in terms of app launching, the purpose of nested folder pop up lists is specifically to easily get to the apps that you use INfrequently and also to browse applications by category. (documents and other uses are a whole other ball of wax that you lose functionality over by only having stacks instead)

For instance, I use disk utility once in a while, but not too frequently. So it doesn't belong in my dock. To launch it from a nested dock list, all I have to do is click the docked applications folder, hit the letter d, then hit enter.

But more importantly, on my main computer I have a ton of apps, which are all grouped into 5 folders inside my applications folder (utilities, business, media, audio, internet). There are lots of times when rather than just wanting to launch a specific application, I want to look over the list of possible applications I have in that category to determine which is the best tools for the job.

Let's say I downloaded a file off the net, but it's in some weirdly compressed format that my default program isn't liking. So I click the docked applications folder, hit the letter i (for internet) enter, and immediately I'm looking at the list of all my internet programs. So I look at all the apps in that folder and I say, "Oh right, I have that program TheUNarchiver, I bet that'll work!" So I hit the letter t then enter and my app launches.

Now with stacks that functionality is now totally gone! The only option now is to go through a finder window, which would've involved opening up at least one window, probably spawning a 2nd window as well, which cluters up the screen and would've involved a lot of extra clicks and / or holding down keyboard modifier clicks, etc. It's just a much worse way to do it.

And this is only in regards to app launching! There are a zillion other uses of nested dock pop up folder lists too! Surfing through all your categorized documents, quickly scanning through any folder in your hard drive with just the arrow keys and not spawning a single window! etc. etc. etc.

Stacks simply are not a replacement for the major functionality that was removed.
 
Nobody is forcing you to use stacks. Just dont use it them.
Yes they are. Any folder put into the dock automatically becomes a stack - you can't turn it off. And, ironically, the lack of stacked menus within stacks means that they represent reduced functionality over what was there before. Edit: the post above explains exactly what I'm talking about - thank you!
 
IMHO, Leopard has more flaws than it does improvements. :(

Maybe for now, but we all know fixes where going to be needed.

Most complainst I have read about are for stacks and the menu bar, so hopefully some type of control to configure them will be added to fix them.

I'd say give it a couple of months. For now I will stick to Tiger.

Do you guys think Leopard is capitalizing on Microsoft's mistake (Vista)?
 
There's no point in making a stack of your 7 most frequently used apps, they should already be in your dock.

Maybe not your most frequently used apps, but using stacks for occasionally used apps is fine.

I can't put all of my applications in the dock - they won't fit. So, I have a couple of stacks for things like games, iLife/iWork, etc. I launch rarely used apps like Disk Utility through spotlight.

I was critical of stacks at first, but once I realised that you can just create a directory with aliases and use that as a stack, I think they're fine. OK, having to create and store the directory is a bit annoying, but it achieves the same end result that I want.
 
I love leopard. It works on my ibook G4 as well as it does on my iMac G5 and my friends new intel machine. The people saying its slow surprise me. Not saying that it isn't slow for you, just saying I'm a bit surprised that its slow. I love stacks. Keeps my desktop nice and clean. Love the new look of the whole OS. The new dock looks great, and all the small things that are new are just great. All in all, i wouldnt think about going back to tiger after leopard.
 
I agree with you. We all pay for this and get the product which is not functioning to full potential. I'd rather wait for a proper product.

I agree with this too. Right out of the box this OS is far worse in terms of basic use. On my 8 Core Macpro, the mouse over and double click does not work nor does flash. The keychain is not funcioning properly either. Then we have an issue with copying and moving files about. That did not work either.

Typing: Leopard does not keep up and all is delayed.
Finder: slow to display folder contents. Seconds go by before anything shows up.

Previewing pics in slide mode: the buttons for next and back and zoom to fit did not respond.

These and more are simple basic 101 functions that do not work on my machine and, my entire machine feels like a Billyware box that has been left on for over a month. Slower than molassess going uphill in the winter.

As a consumer and and from an Engineers perspective, this is a rip off and every year it gets worse up there in Cupertino. More bugs, more blue screen of deaths etc etc. At least the first iteration of Tiger worked when that came out vs this pile. I can see some apps here and there not working due to third party SW developers but, come on, for the OS itself to be riddled with issues and bugs and not being even functional on the basics, that is really bad.

I shelved Leopard until further notice and am back to Tiger. Darn good thing I made a clone before upgrading so I could just boot back into Tiger.
 
I agree with you to a point except the comment about Unix. What have nested folders got to do with Unix? Apple has not crippled any Unix based features. They are all still available via the terminal as they were in Tiger. The GNU compiler tools are included with Xcode with some very nice features so I am really struggling to understand exactly what Unix features Apple has crippled.
Indeed. I think the whole "Nested Folders in the Dock" is more akin to Windows (Start Menu) than anything in Unix. In fact I hated them for that reason, navigating through all those nested folders just reminded me of Windows too much. Still its a shame that Apple had to dump the feature for people who wanted it. Perhaps someone will come out with a fix.

I agree with this too. Right out of the box this OS is far worse in terms of basic use. On my 8 Core Macpro, the mouse over and double click does not work nor does flash. The keychain is not funcioning properly either. Then we have an issue with copying and moving files about. That did not work either.

Typing: Leopard does not keep up and all is delayed.
Finder: slow to display folder contents. Seconds go by before anything shows up.

Previewing pics in slide mode: the buttons for next and back and zoom to fit did not respond.
I'm having none of these issues on my MBP and it has 4x less Cores than your computer (or on my 1Ghz 12" Powerbook!). Did you do an upgrade or an Archive and Install?
 
The face counts - you see it everyday.

Just want to get a few things off my chest. I know it's a matter of taste but:

1. I have perfect vision and yet generally the text in all the menus looks slightly smaller and less clear than in Tiger.
2. The text in the side bars is too small. Incredibly there is no method of increasing the size of the text that I can find - I could reduce my screen resolution from 1920x1200 downwards, but why would I want to do that and get larger, jaggier text - I'm viewing on a 23inch cinema display.
3. The icons in my new 3d dock look too small compared to Tiger.
4. The implementation of the genie feature when an applicaton is minimized to the dock is not as smooth as in Tiger - there is an angular effect happening as opposed to Tiger's smooth curve.
5. Whether you like the new application folders is a matter of taste. However they do not match the more glossy, rounded, friendly look and feel of all the other icons. They feel unfriendly, imposing and unMac-Like.
6. The blue hi-lighting colour in the menus reminds me of Windows XP.
7. I'm sure great things are happening under the hood, but my relationship is with the look and feel of the interface. It is the face of my Mac...and it should look and feel better, not worse. I will actually need to use some 3rd party apps to get the look and feel I like. This was not the case with Tiger.

In short, no one wants their new girlfriend to look worse than their old one, even if the new one goes like a train!

Best Wishes

Sgt Pepper
 
[/QUOTE]I'm having none of these issues on my MBP and it has 4x less Cores than your computer (or on my 1Ghz 12" Powerbook!). Did you do an upgrade or an Archive and Install?[/QUOTE]

Upgrade right over Tiger on my primary boot drive.
 
Stacks has crippled the way I access all my Applications and Documents. The new side bar makes access to shared folders & files less efficient. The new Dock is an ugly, hard to read and requires binoculars to see what programs are open. (give us back our arrows!). The new folder icons, although nicely designed, simply don't follow the design of the rest of the OS and that aside, they make location of enclosed files and folders hard, due their difference being far to subtle.

I fully agree with that. The menu bar is horrible, I long for the tiger one. The leopard dock is actually better, so long as I turn off the glass effect (or run it at the side, which I do). Stacks are actually very nice, apart from not being able to tell what each one is. The dock folders should have been kept though, they were handy too.

I fully disagree on leopard being worse than tiger though. Sure, those few things are (at least in some ways) worse, and those are some of the most visible things. But the rest of the UI changes are pretty good, spaces and time machine are great, and the bits you don't generally see (like the networking say) are massively better. I'd only go back to tiger if I found something that I really needed wouldn't work on leopard, and so far it's all running fine :)

So leopard it is for me, and I'll continue being mostly happy but still a bit annoyed with apple for forcing me to use 3rd party 'hacks' for the first time to get the UI looking half decent. I've sent in a few suggestions too btw.
 
Actually if it wasn't for Leopard I'd be looking at selling my Mac and going back to Windows this coming spring. Quite honestly Tiger NEVER worked right. Its networking was slow and buggy, finder was a joke. Leopard is substantially better then Tiger. What the problem is, is typical Apple .x.0 release bugs.
 
The network on Tiger is fast once it is setup properly. If IV6 is on, then there will always be a delay but, if that is disabled and you setup the conversion from IV6 to IV4 things rip right along.

In fact for me, Leopard network response to input command was slower on my machine. I guess it depends on the variables of the environment.
 
The sad thing is, if Apple does decide to listen to user feedback and deal with these reduced-functionality issues (no large or resizable icons in the sidebar, Stacks being less flexible than their predecessors, folders no longer automatically remembering their view settings, and don't even get me started on the downgrade that is Front Row 2.0), it won't happen until 10.6 at the earliest. 10.x.x releases tend to be for bug fixes and additional features needed to support new hardware and standards and such -- rarely do they change major features of the OS in these sorts of releases. What's even sadder is that it's likely that each and every one of these downgrades was intentional, and that Apple has no plans to change them back.
 
The sad thing is, if Apple does decide to listen to user feedback and deal with these reduced-functionality issues (no large or resizable icons in the sidebar, Stacks being less flexible than their predecessors, folders no longer automatically remembering their view settings, and don't even get me started on the downgrade that is Front Row 2.0), it won't happen until 10.6 at the earliest. 10.x.x releases tend to be for bug fixes and additional features needed to support new hardware and standards and such -- rarely do they change major features of the OS in these sorts of releases. What's even sadder is that it's likely that each and every one of these downgrades was intentional, and that Apple has no plans to change them back.

Yep, I don't remember any changes to the UI of Tiger - every single update either fixed bugs, security or improved things under the hood - the look and feel was fixed for good in the 1st release (I mean my memory isn't perfect but as far as I remember)...So I'd be amazed if anything changed on Leopard. I only crossed over three years ago, but has Apple ever tweaked the look of an OS before, after the initial release?

Also, any thoughts on the new printer dialog box? The preview is great, but when you're selecting duplex, paper handling, quality & preview etc...isn't it just plain clunky the way the window has to resize to accommodate each option...I mean it has to happen like that because each option takes up a different amount of space,

but wouldn't tabs or a pop out side panel have been more....

ELEGANT....and isn't that what the Mac UI has always been about when compared to Windows. Most of Leopard is great, but in a few areas everything is starting to get....FIDDLY....menus with longer lists....

Or is it natural in the life of an OS that at some point more and more stuff gets added and it starts to BLOAT?
 
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