Let's Stop Avoiding The Hard Truth About Lion

[ljonesj]

Now i agree with that remark about if its not broke don't fix it rule. i can understand features updates new features but please don't remove if you don't have to i can understand in away removing Rosetta but something like save as and for some people to expose and spaces even thou i don't use them.

 

[Lokheed]

Apple is just went out and broke the 'if its not broken, dont fix it' rule.

An OS is not a shovel. It's a multi-faceted utility, like a Swiss-army Knife.

 

[wpotere]

An OS is not a shovel. It's a multi-faceted utility, like a Swiss-army Knife.

Yeah, and they broke some of the tools and lost the tooth pick and tweezers.

 

[jameslmoser]

You cannot say that as it is ABSOLUTELY unusable--most of us are typing and reading on it right now. This is exactly what I mean.

I find it absolutely unusable. You guys who like Lion, good for you... vote me down, but I have perfectly valid complaints that are shared by A LOT of users. And most of those users have been with Apple for years, and are used to a certain level of quality. Its just not there with Lion.

Lion is a disaster. I don't know what everyone else uses their computer for but every single work flow I had has been changed to take more clicks or steps (if its even still possible). I am not concerned with the bugs (even though this is the buggiest OS X release I can remember, and I started with 10.2), I'm sure apple will eventually fix those. My problem is with the implementation of, well, pretty much everything.

The lack of multi monitor support in full screen apps and Mission Control. Spaces and Expose worked perfectly with each other, and with out. You don't get that option anymore. The lose of a simple Save As functionality (and yes I know about Duplicate.. dumb). The computer trying to make decisions for me or thinking its smarter than me by saving a change, keeping some apps in memory when I quit them, locking files... The ridiculous animations that slow everything down and can't be disabled. The complete disregard for Apple's own interface guidelines and lack of consistency. The fact that Apple's own modem I bought 2 years ago to fax (I personally hate faxing but the business world still relies heavily on the) doesn't work anymore. I can go on and on.

About the only thing about Lion I like is that iChat supports Yahoo! messenger... yeah thats pretty much it. Not worth an OS "upgrade".

If new mac computers could be ordered with Snow Leopard, or have Snow Leopard installed, I would be a little less worried, but thats not the case. Apple has little love for supporting anything that might not be brand new, even if it was their product. I wanted the new Air, but after trying Lion I am not going to buy one because it won't run Snow Leopard, and I can't stand Lion. Whats funny (or sad depending how you look at it) is I bet you can still install Windows XP or Vista on it.

 

[wikus]

An OS is not a shovel. It's a multi-faceted utility, like a Swiss-army Knife.

Good, now that you've been able to come to that conclusion, heres another one:

An OS is also capable of having options to cater to people, ie; expose with on/off switches for grouped windows, moving around spaces, turning off the new save function, etc.

Who would have thunk to give users OPTIONS?

 

[wpotere]

Who would have thunk to give users OPTIONS?

Microsoft?

Keep'em coming!

 

[KPOM]

The "hard truth" is that this Mac user likes Lion. I have a 2011 MacBook Air, but have had Macs for myself since the Rev A MacBook Air running Leopard. I also purchased an iBook for my mother in 2002 and so have been familiar with every OS X release since Puma. Going back even further, I used System 7.6 on a PowerBook 540c on a work notebook back in the day.

Lion has its bugs, and there were some decisions (e.g. dropping Rosetta) that I think should have been delayed at least one more version, but on the whole, it has been a decent OS for me. I like having FileVault 2, as well as Auto Resume, and the new gestures and natural scrolling are second-nature to me now.

 

[blackomega31]

The "hard truth" is that this Mac user likes Lion. I have a 2011 MacBook Air, but have had Macs for myself since the Rev A MacBook Air running Leopard. I also purchased an iBook for my mother in 2002 and so have been familiar with every OS X release since Puma. Going back even further, I used System 7.6 on a PowerBook 540c on a work notebook back in the day.

Lion has its bugs, and there were some decisions (e.g. dropping Rosetta) that I think should have been delayed at least one more version, but on the whole, it has been a decent OS for me. I like having FileVault 2, as well as Auto Resume, and the new gestures and natural scrolling are second-nature to me now.

I totally agree here. when i tried out lion i did not have any of the reported wifi bugs that were listed. what i did experience was the shorter battery life and my CPU got very hot. personally i do not see why apple chose to remove components such as rosetta. Rosetta did not hurt anything by being there even if it was redundant. The same goes for Front Row, there is a media centre mac mini i have in my house that i will never downgrade to lion because i use front row. now why do all new macs, even the ones that come with lion still have the infrared receiver if they killed front row. now what apple is saying is they are trying to trim the fat of the lion install. and perhaps there are a lot of us that do not use front row but from what i am reading, rosetta is badly missed. Now here is a thought Apple, you have created this great app called "App Store" why not put rosetta and front row in there, charge me a dollar i don't care i will pay a dollar for that. That there gives us users a choice of what we want. and another thing. i use iDvd its a great program for making Dvd's with a menu why did you have to stop supporting that and iweb

now all this sandboxing and filevault 2, the new spotlight stuff is great. as is the resizing windows from all sides, here is an example of changes to the OS that are transparent to us and we can decide how to implement them. But apple please don't try to decide for us on how we use the rest of our computer

i can complain about launchpad, and you all can say "just drag it off the dock and do not use it" i liked how apps went to my dock and the apps folder and i can choose. now they fly into launchpad and i cant get rid of the apps i don't want to see there, and i should not have to put them in a folder and forget about them. also making the traffic lights smaller and the finder sidebar icons harder to distinguish between because of color and poor contrasting backgrounds. and they are trying to make the OS more accessible to the masses. now i know there are people out there that have parents out there that dont take to computers. can you imagine how hard it is to tell them that you can scroll if there is no visual reference to a scroll bar. again this is configurable but its off by default. and still they are small and very hard to see if your eyes are not that good. i can see fine but i do teach older people how to use computers and all these things they shrink and remove are making that harder. IMO osx is becoming a harder sell for me when i try to convince people to ditch their windows boxes for mac

Now any way you look at it from my point of view apple has taken a huge step backwards in terms of user interaction.

Finally. all you pro lion users out there. i am glad that lion works for you and i will not hate you for liking it, so please don't shoot this post down

 

[ceej]

I find it absolutely unusable. You guys who like Lion, good for you... vote me down, but I have perfectly valid complaints that are shared by A LOT of users.

If people can use it to see your unnecessary rant, then it is not ABSOLUTELY unusable. Get a dictionary and look up the word absolutely.

Every single OS in the world has had initial bugs because the humans that create them are NOT perfect.

 

[wikus]

If people can use it to see your unnecessary rant, then it is not ABSOLUTELY unusable. Get a dictionary and look up the word absolutely.

Every single OS in the world has had initial bugs because the humans that create them are NOT perfect.

Why is it so difficult for so many of you to accept the difficulties some of us are having, to accept the fact that certain functions have been removed.

Specifically in this reply, you are flat out wrong with your response to jameslmoser. You clearly either do not want to address that it is *his* point of view, or your reading comprehension skills are severely lacking. Read his comment again:

I find it absolutely unusable.

Are you able to see that the FIRST WORD in his comment is I????

 

[wpotere]

Are you able to see that the FIRST WORD in his comment is I????

Because the people with the pom poms have selective reading.

 

[blackomega31]

Why is it so difficult for so many of you to accept the difficulties some of us are having, to accept the fact that certain functions have been removed.

Specifically in this reply, you are flat out wrong with your response to jameslmoser. You clearly either do not want to address that it is *his* point of view, or your reading comprehension skills are severely lacking. Read his comment again:



Are you able to see that the FIRST WORD in his comment is I????

AMEN TO THAT

Ok lion lovers we get it. you like lion and you don't have problems now please buzz off back to la la land and let the adults talk

 

[MythicFrost]

Has anyone who's having problems done a clean install rather than an upgrade? I don't disbelieve anyone who says they're having problems with it, but I'm just curious?

I've got two Macs running Lion here without even the slightest problem. I'm just saying because if you've done an upgrade and you've got problems (lag, spinnies, any glitch or crash, etc.) you might be able to solve it by doing a clean install.

 

[wpotere]

Has anyone who's having problems done a clean install rather than an upgrade? I don't disbelieve anyone who says they're having problems with it, but I'm just curious?

I've got two Macs running Lion here without even the slightest problem. I'm just saying because if you've done an upgrade and you've got problems (lag, spinnies, any glitch or crash, etc.) you might be able to solve it by doing a clean install.

Please read the thread before you post questions. Yes, we have tried clean installs and have still had the same issues. Ugh....

Sorry to sound grumpy, but I am getting tired of the same old response.

 

[MythicFrost]

Please read the thread before you post questions. Yes, we have tried clean installs and have still had the same issues. Ugh....

I'm not going to read through this entire thread, and what's with the hostility I see here? I was only asking to see if it might help anyone. It's not like I'm bashing anyone for saying they're having problems, or that they don't like the OS.

EDIT: Ah... don't worry about it. I didn't know, sorry, I only check here periodically.

 

[wikus]

Has anyone who's having problems done a clean install rather than an upgrade? I don't disbelieve anyone who says they're having problems with it, but I'm just curious?

I've got two Macs running Lion here without even the slightest problem. I'm just saying because if you've done an upgrade and you've got problems (lag, spinnies, any glitch or crash, etc.) you might be able to solve it by doing a clean install.

I never had any experience with bugs except for this weird behaviour:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocUDmk6bcoY

The first thing I always do when setting up an installation of OS X is to set the hot corners for Expose:

Top Right: All Windows
Bottom Right: All Windows Within the currently open application
Bottom Left: Show Desktop

I cannot set my top right corner to have that function anymore. I've been yeld at by some apple evangelical psychopaths that I'm doing it wrong and that 'All Windows Expose' still exists if I swipe down when I hover over the grouped item of windows. Clearly it does not work. It only fans out the group of windows SLIGHTLY and I still can't see which window I need to switch to. I use photoshop, indesign and illustrator almost on a daily basis. I absolutely need Expose to function as it does in Snow Leopard. Its critical because my productivity is greatly improved this way.

----

To those in this thread that are suffering from arrogance and willingness to accept *my* point of view:

I do real work on my machine. I use the Adobe Creative Suite to earn an income. I'm also in school for web development and I switch between applications more often than you seem to be able to comprehend. My video clearly shows the lack of support for a properly functioning Expose. In no way would the option to ungroup the windows degrade YOUR mac os experience, nor would a bug fix from apple, OR an option to turn off the new save function. If you have any problems with choice, improvements, platform optimizations or tweaks, I suggest you build yourself a time machine and go back 50 years and live in communist russia.

 

[wpotere]

I'm not going to read through this entire thread, and what's with the hostility I see here? I was only asking to see if it might help anyone. It's not like I'm bashing anyone for saying they're having problems, or that they don't like the OS.

EDIT: Ah... don't worry about it. I didn't know, sorry, I only check here periodically.

I didn't say you were. However, I do find it amusing that the new Apple mantra is "have you tried a fresh install". Starting to sound a lot like Microsoft!

As I said, I am sorry for the grumpy response but that has been the pom pom clan mantra for the last month and it is wearing thin.

 

[MythicFrost]

I never had any experience with bugs except for this weird behaviour:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocUDmk6bcoY

The first thing I always do when setting up an installation of OS X is to set the hot corners for Expose:

Top Right: All Windows
Bottom Right: All Windows Within the currently open application
Bottom Left: Show Desktop

I cannot set my top right corner to have that function anymore. I've been yeld at by some apple evangelical psychopaths that I'm doing it wrong and that 'All Windows Expose' still exists if I swipe down when I hover over the grouped item of windows. Clearly it does not work. It only fans out the group of windows SLIGHTLY and I still can't see which window I need to switch to. I use photoshop, indesign and illustrator almost on a daily basis. I absolutely need Expose to function as it does in Snow Leopard. Its critical because my productivity is greatly improved this way.

----

To those in this thread that are suffering from arrogance and willingness to accept *my* point of view:

I do real work on my machine. I use the Adobe Creative Suite to earn an income. I'm also in school for web development and I switch between applications more often than you seem to be able to comprehend. My video clearly shows the lack of support for a properly functioning Expose. In no way would the option to ungroup the windows degrade YOUR mac os experience, nor would a bug fix from apple, OR an option to turn off the new save function (which, for anyone who is a power user, will know what I mean about having control).

There isn't an "All Windows Expose" anymore, but there is a "Application Windows Expose" which it seems you have set to the bottom right corner. I'm not sure what you can setup with a third party mouse, but with the Magic Mouse I do a double two finger tap to activate Mission Control, and doing that over an icon in the dock activates "Application Windows Expose". I also use a trackpad, which I find can be quite useful.

And, if you didn't know, you can tap space in Mission Control to see larger versions of the window. That's all I know.

I didn't say you were. However, I do find it amusing that the new Apple mantra is "have you tried a fresh install". Starting to sound a lot like Microsoft!

As I said, I am sorry for the grumpy response but that has been the pom pom clan mantra for the last month and it is wearing thin.

Ah, no worries. I didn't know, I've not been in many Lion threads lately.

 

[wikus]

There isn't an "All Windows Expose" anymore, but there is a "Application Windows Expose" which it seems you have set to the bottom right corner. I'm not sure what you can setup with a third party mouse, but with the Magic Mouse I do a double two finger tap to activate Mission Control, and doing that over an icon in the dock activates "Application Windows Expose". I also use a trackpad, which I find can be quite useful.

And, if you didn't know, you can tap space in Mission Control to see larger versions of the window. That's all I know.

The problem in my case is that:

a) i dont own (nor will I ever) a magic mouse
b) i almost never use the trackpad. i hate it, its inaccurate, slow and im far slower when I work compared to my logitech mx518.

theres really no solution for me at this moment other than to move back to Snow Leopard. I really need Expose to function as it did before.

 

[KPOM]

AMEN TO THAT

Ok lion lovers we get it. you like lion and you don't have problems now please buzz off back to la la land and let the adults talk

That's a bit condescending, isn't it? Are you suggesting that those of us who aren't having issues with Lion aren't adults?

I fully understand that some people have lots of issues with Lion. That's true of any new OS (even those universally accepted as "improvements" such as Leopard or Windows 7). Lion caused more issues because it dropped Rosetta compatibility, and because the first version was released before it was ready. However, in some cases (e.g. incompatibility with NAS) it's the peripheral manufacturers who are at fault since the changes were announced in advance. In other cases, the problems are being addressed.

 

[MythicFrost]

The problem in my case is that:

a) i dont own (nor will I ever) a magic mouse
b) i almost never use the trackpad. i hate it, its inaccurate, slow and im far slower when I work compared to my logitech mx518.

theres really no solution for me at this moment other than to move back to Snow Leopard. I really need Expose to function as it did before.

Ahahaha, is that so? I was only using it as an example. I'm not sure if you can set Mission Control to activate with say a middle mouse button click. In which case, doing so over an icon should also activate application expose.

Really? I don't use it as a mouse, but I do for the gestures. I keep it to the left of my wireless keyboard and find I can do whatever.

Eh, I guess so. I used to be a fanatic Expose clicker, would activate it every couple of seconds (I exaggerate a little) and I'm getting used to Mission Control although I do notice the difference. Hopefully Apple will be able to improve Mission Control so that it'll be as functional in that regard as Expose was on Snow Leopard.

 

[DoFoT9]

Eh, I guess so. I used to be a fanatic Expose clicker, would activate it every couple of seconds (I exaggerate a little) and I'm getting used to Mission Control although I do notice the difference. Hopefully Apple will be able to improve Mission Control so that it'll be as functional in that regard as Expose was on Snow Leopard.

i use a magic mouse (custom gestures) for expose etc, but i more prefer to use command+tab, due to the sheer number of windows i have open at any time - it makes it really hard to see which is which

 

[MythicFrost]

i use a magic mouse (custom gestures) for expose etc, but i more prefer to use command+tab, due to the sheer number of windows i have open at any time - it makes it really hard to see which is which

Yeah? Hopefully Apple will do something about it. Surely there's something they can do. Like have an option to expand the desktop view in Mission Control and hide the dock/spaces and only have them drop down when your mouse goes over them.

 

[vitzr]

I work amongst a very large group of fellow engineers who are given the choice of using Macs or PC's. Many of us have been long time Mac users. Of this group we all use Macs as our personal machines at home. Upon the release of the 2011 MBA's equipped with Lion, 24 of us decided to buy MBA's for two reasons. One, because we had already decided we wanted that Laptop and two, because we wanted to try Lion without disturbing any of our existing Snow Leopard setups which were highly optimized, and running trouble free.

There was a second subset of engineers that didn't mind committing their existing machines and chose to download & clean install Lion.

Of these two groups what we are finding curious is that those of us who bought new MBA's, are experiencing very few issues. The other group that did clean installs on 2010 MBP's all have a fairly wide variety of issues. It's as though we've got two different builds.

Just an observation to share.

 

[Mackilroy]

Are you able to see that the FIRST WORD in his comment is I????

Apparently it was usable enough to find out that that particular feature didn't work for him. So still not completely unusable.