Mac OS X 10.5 Details?

[SiliconAddict]

I do hope Vista IS good enough to push Apple even farther than they already push themselves. But Microsoft's history has long been one of "we're getting better, honest! THIS time, Simon Says!" But big plans don't always turn to ideal realities--witness all the big stuff MS has REMOVED from Vista just to get it out the door, even late. So it does feel like crying wolf until we see whether Vista really catches up to Tiger or not. (And then Leopard comes along anyway.)

It could be said without much exaggeration that MS has dropped those features because they want to focus on the core OS. This alone is a massive departure from MS's previous behavior of features first. Even Apple does this. 10.0 and 10.1 and pretty much 10.2 were all about the core OS. 10.3 and 10.4 were about feature additions. And 10.5? The halfway mark to 11? God only knows.

But like 10.0 I think Vista is going to be bug infested. Less then 10.0 though simply because of how MS releases beta software to EVERYONE and lets them test it ironing out bugs well before the final release. (I really wish Apple would adopt this method as well.) That being said one thing they aren't getting right is the interface. Yes its still a year away and could be tweaked but OMG. I hate the file explorer now. I think I know why MS is pushing up the minimum resolution. The File Explorer tries to take up as much space as possible. Its quite possibly the worse design I've never seen which seems to be the hallmark of Vista - Lets change everything in a way that makes absolutely NO FREAKING sense.
So while they may have a better overall system from a stability, security, programming, and functionality standpoint they have retrograded in the ease of use department IMHO. Thankfully you can select which interface you want. Vista\XP\2K-ish.

Sorry got off topic there for a second....ummm

Go Leopard!! *waves a little foam #1 finger*

 

[Fukui]

That is the problem... There is no 'simple solution'.

Yes there is!
Just go to /Library/Receipts

Delete iWork.pkg

Install Now Works.

 

[soosy]

My first thought when reading this rumor was Duh, that's an obvious direction to go. My second thought was I hope they don't screw it up because I haven't been very impressed with Spotlight.

I've been more and more disappointed with Tiger lately. This isn't a rant, but here's some reasons why:
- 99% of the time I just want to search by filename and Spotlight makes this more difficult. I never turned on content searching in previous OS's. Spotlight used to beach ball after typing in 1 or 2 characters but it seems better lately (perhaps that was only 10.4.0). Just today I fixed Mail which has stopped giving results when searching by Entire Message and I googled the solution which was to rebuild the Spotlight index.
- Dashboard. Like Konfabulator I stopped using it after a week.
- Automator. I've opened this like 6 times now and haven't been able to get it to do what I wanted it to do each time. Either what I want to do isn't offered or I just can't figure it out. I'm a pro user so that is pretty ridiculous to me.
- .Mac sync. So limited. I don't like that I have to use .mac. Anything remotely private I don't want sent over the internet (I can't believe Keychain is even an option actually). I can share my Addressbook but it has to be my ENTIRE addressbook. There are some other limitations I won't get in to.
- Others have mentioned Finder problems such as beach ball especially when networking.

Tiger features I love:
- general speed increase
- files update in real time so image file preview icons finally work
- build in dictionary... I use this thing so much
- Core Image/Core Data/etc. As others pointed out, a lot of Tiger is building blocks for the future.

There's no way I'd ever go back to Panther or go to Windows... I'm just saying there is PLENTY of room for improvement. I'm sure other people find much more use out of Dashboard, Spotlight, etc., but some others like me probably don't.


... oh and I have to mention Apple's interface inconsistencies. I think they should evolve the interface, but it should be at a system wide level. It's silly to have all these individual apps straying slightly from each other. iTunes square corners, etc. I'd personally like to see System Themes where we could choose Aqua Classic, Metal, Unified, Apple Pro App.

 

[paulypants]

Tiger is a train wreck. Buggy. Poorly designed. Many, many flaws.

.

While I agree they need to take their time, I would hardly call Tiger a "trainwreck" LOL. I had more issues with early Panther than with Tiger. There were definitely bugs in 10.4.0, but I haven't seen many since. As far as stability, it's been every bit as solid as late Panther, or more so for me and other mac users I know. Not saying it hasn't been for you, of course, in that case I empathize.

 

[paulypants]

Yes there is!
Just go to /Library/Receipts

Delete iWork.pkg

Install Now Works.

Exactly, you need to go to the Receipts folder and delete the original packages to totally rid your system of an app. However, I rarely run into a problem by just deleting the app, Application support items, Preferences, and Caches. It would be GREAT for Apple to include a way to do that when tossing the app, like what another poster suggested, by asking if you also want to trash associated files or whatnot.

 

[paulypants]

... oh and I have to mention Apple's interface inconsistencies. I think they should evolve the interface, but it should be at a system wide level. It's silly to have all these individual apps straying slightly from each other. iTunes square corners, etc. I'd personally like to see System Themes where we could choose Aqua Classic, Metal, Unified, Apple Pro App.

Yeah I agree, that would be great! I would love that option, at least just to get all warm and fuzzy when looking at an Aqua Classic interface, but without the dog slow performance of Jaguar.


But of course I'd switch it back to the newest slick style after getting ill staring at those horizontal lines...

 

[SiliconAddict]

You don't sound like an offended fan boy or anything....</SARCASM>

I've found 10.4 to be worse than 10.2 and 10.3 from a stability perspective, but a bit faster on the performance front. I'm desperately waiting for 10.4.3. More issues with Java that I did not have in 10.3, occassional kernel panics, that I've never had before. Issues with running Virtual PC, not all Apple's fault, but a byproduct of 10.4. (Forced upgrade to Virtual PC 7, due to the kernel api changes)

I wouldn’t go as far as to say that but from the scattering of friends who have Tiger it IS pretty damn obvious there is a problem. When 5 Tiger users are complaining (In a range from "yah its kind of flaky" to "I uninstalled it because its so bad".) about the OS it’s a pretty good indication that there is trouble in Tigerland. Like it or not Tiger was rushed. For what I have no idea. (Its not as if Vista was going to be shipping the same year as Tiger!?!?) Apple should have taken another 3 months and ironed out all the major kinks.

 

[SiliconAddict]

Yes there is!
Just go to /Library/Receipts

Delete iWork.pkg

Install Now Works.

And this is intuitive and easy to use how?
I'm sorry but digging into a directory structure to remove your apps is NOT easier then going into a list of apps in one centralized location and clicking uninstall. I think you need to take off your power user tinted goggles for a second and realize that the average user does not want a thing to do with a file structure. Why do you think Apple is using metadata so heavily? With metadata and Spotlight file structures become meaningless. Both Microsoft and Apple (*nix) have gotten things right and wrong with how apps are managed. The necessity of the registry is MS's biggest FUBAR. The lacking of a centralized uninstall location from the System Preferences is Apple's.

 

[rog]

I'd be happy if they just got spotlight to work. Searching in Mail is useless and misses 90%. for example, searching for the word "real" as in real estate in all mailboxes anywhere in the message should give me hundreds of results but it misses almost all of them, even though I get a certainly daily real estate update. Spotlight sucks, They shoudl ditch it and start from scratch with something that works and doesn't slow my system to a crawl.

 

[Fukui]

And this is intuitive and easy to use how?

I didn't say its intuative!
I just said its easy.

 

[areyouwishing]

I haven't read anyone else's post but, in my book, this is far greater news than anything I have heard in the last year... better than Powerbook g5 on tuesday, and quad core PowerMacs.

 

[nagromme]

To me the best thing about Tiger is ALL the little things that aren't front page news. Overall refinement of many, many things. The headline features are cool, but it's the little things that add up to make me wish I was on Tiger. I will be as soon as I free up space for a decent full backup

... oh and I have to mention Apple's interface inconsistencies. I think they should evolve the interface, but it should be at a system wide level. It's silly to have all these individual apps straying slightly from each other. iTunes square corners, etc. I'd personally like to see System Themes where we could choose Aqua Classic, Metal, Unified, Apple Pro App.

Interface inconsistency is one thing, but it betrays an underlying bad decision with certain apps as well. One I hope is reversed in future:

If there are going to be several themes, they should be at the OS level! The dev tools let you choose white vs. metal (Aqua vs. Textured I think are the names), and THAT is how it should always be done. So if the metal theme is updated, it should be an OS-level change and ALL metal apps should change together! But I see QuickTime, Calculator and iTunes not sharing the same kind of metal anymorel. That tells me that iTunes (and maybe QT) is bypassing the OS theme and has its own internal theme. VERY inefficient if the goal is ever to have ONE metal theme again. And I do believe that's the goal eventually.

The one thing OS X is still missing is a way to restore files from the trash and automatically put them where they came from... this is one thing I miss from Windows.

And from Mac OS 9 "Put Away"

It could be said without much exaggeration that MS has dropped those features because they want to focus on the core OS. This alone is a massive departure from MS's previous behavior of features first.

A good (and overdue) decision!

When 5 Tiger users are complaining (In a range from "yah its kind of flaky" to "I uninstalled it because its so bad".) about the OS it’s a pretty good indication that there is trouble in Tigerland.

Or: the Squeaky Wheel effect. Human nature is to post when there's a problem. People are far less likely to bother posting just to say "all is well"--and yet we get those Tiger comments too!

An online forum will make ANY product seem more trouble-prone than reality.

 

[Stella]

Apple could forget 10.5 and just call it OSX 11....

Maybe it's a hint for OS 11,

11.0 - Cab Sav
11.1 - Pinot
11.2 - Semillion
11.3 - Shiraz
11.4 - Verdelho (later changed to Merlot after mothers groups kicked up a stink because it sounded very much like "bordello."
11.5 - Sav Blanc

 

[slb]

Apple could forget 10.5 and just call it OSX 11....

And then five weeks later release OS X 12.

 

[hyperpasta]

Vista

I'm not going to Vista. And I think Tiger is better. But make no mistake, Vista is a dramatic improvment over XP.

Right now OS X makes XP look hilariously outdated. This won't be the case when Vista rolls out. It will be an ugly, buggy, poorly designed and Microsofty version of OS X, but its still not lightyears behind. Apple needs to update the look and feel of OS X so that it looks just as amazing and different as Aqua did in 2000. They also need to match WinFS, whatever that is (?). So that every review of the just-released Vista mentions something like:

"Vista was plagued with development problems from the start, and Microsoft had to remove many important features, delayed to 2006, that Apple has been shipping for over 2 months in their new Leopard operating system."

Apple will undisputibly be far ahead again, and they can follow up 18 months later with Cougar to finish the job.

 

[nagromme]

Apple needs to update the look and feel of OS X so that it looks just as amazing and different as Aqua did in 2000.

I agree that Apple needs to keep advancing OS X--and I hope they are at work on that But not about look and feel. The appearance can be refined and made more consistent, but I do NOT think a total overhaul like 2000 would be a good thing. Not BIG change for change's sake. It's bad for two reasons: 1) brand awareness, and 2) usability--being forced to learn a new "home." Both are important Apple, and #2 is important to users.

So I'm all for evolution, not revolution, when it comes to the look and feel. Revolutions can be exciting, but it's too soon. (And remember how Aqua in 2001 was in need of some refinement for quite a while. Like getting rid of the transparent titlebars that made things hard to read. A feature MS is now using in Vista )

 

[FocusAndEarnIt]

I dunno about you, but I think the Dock needs some improvements! It's barely been touched since it what... Puma? Maybe dividers? Allow MORE docks?

Idunno, just a thought...

 

[XNine]

WTF are you talking about? Apple is about being "For the rest of us." You are trying to pull some elitest techie bull***** here.

That sentiment may hold for dealing with enterprise servers and such, but not for a home computer.

- Kelson

Wow, hang on their Troll. Before you go off, IU stated that it was MY OPINION.
Secondly, people who install things and don't know what they're doing are the same people that cost companies billions of dollars a year because they click on links in emails, download screensavers that are viruses, etc. This is exactly why people shouldn't install things if they don't know what they're doing. It's not elitist, it's my honest opinion.

And I also gave a link to an app that will manage your packages jsut to be nice. So why're you crawling up my ass?

I dunno about you, but I think the Dock needs some improvements! It's barely been touched since it what... Puma? Maybe dividers? Allow MORE docks?

Idunno, just a thought...

I suggest do What Dock Extender did (and has been broken sicne late panther releases). Make Folders that allow you to put several Apps in that folder, and allow the user to give the folder a custom icon and organize the apps as they see fit.

Good insight! I've been thinking the same thing since I can't use Dock Extender anymore.

 

[weezer160]

there's always something over which people can argue, there's always a feature someone would like to see, there's always something that's wrong, there's always a major dissagreement. apple could add all the the aforementioned suggestions/wants/needs/etc. and there would still be complaining that the "sucky" finder doesn't do their homework, get them a date or write their harvard college application. an os is only as perfect as the people who make them, and since apple programmers also happen to be human, i think all we can ask for is what apple has. what more does apple have to offer? take it or leave it. apple's not forcing you to update.

 

[ryanw]

And this is intuitive and easy to use how?
I'm sorry but digging into a directory structure to remove your apps is NOT easier then going into a list of apps in one centralized location and clicking uninstall. I think you need to take off your power user tinted goggles for a second and realize that the average user does not want a thing to do with a file structure. Why do you think Apple is using metadata so heavily? With metadata and Spotlight file structures become meaningless. Both Microsoft and Apple (*nix) have gotten things right and wrong with how apps are managed. The necessity of the registry is MS's biggest FUBAR. The lacking of a centralized uninstall location from the System Preferences is Apple's.

Exactly ... Plus if you remove the .pkg file there are still potentially thousands of files left all over your harddrive. Especially when trying to remove something like a JamPack or Final Cut Studio which has 'compressor' among other things sprawled out all over your harddrive.

 

[hyperpasta]

I agree that Apple needs to keep advancing OS X--and I hope they are at work on that But not about look and feel. The appearance can be refined and made more consistent, but I do NOT think a total overhaul like 2000 would be a good thing. Not BIG change for change's sake. It's bad for two reasons: 1) brand awareness, and 2) usability--being forced to learn a new "home." Both are important Apple, and #2 is important to users.

So I'm all for evolution, not revolution, when it comes to the look and feel. Revolutions can be exciting, but it's too soon. (And remember how Aqua in 2001 was in need of some refinement for quite a while. Like getting rid of the transparent titlebars that made things hard to read. A feature MS is now using in Vista )

Sure, evolution. But still a very slick evolution. How about a more 3D-ish Genie effect: windows that blur, give off light, and turn into multicololored rotating tubes as they minimzie.

Imagine that new windows fade in/expand for .25 seconds when you open them.

Etc, etc.

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. Not so much of a huge brand change, but something that will induce "oooohs" and "ahhhh" at WWDC and when you show the OS to your friends.

EDIT: cleaned up. Yay! Post #100!

 

[ryanw]

there's always something over which people can argue, there's always a feature someone would like to see, there's always something that's wrong, there's always a major dissagreement. apple could add all the the aforementioned suggestions/wants/needs/etc. and there would still be complaining that the "sucky" finder doesn't do their homework, get them a date or write their harvard college application. an os is only as perfect as the people who make them, and since apple programmers also happen to be human, i think all we can ask for is what apple has. what more does apple have to offer? take it or leave it. apple's not forcing you to update.

I don't know if that's necessarily true. Let me start with that I have been using macs since late 10.0. I prefer them over windows for several reasons. But over the years I have noticed that Apple "holds back" features because they don't "think" anyone should do that. Apple controls things VERY heavily. Sure, that's great for the non-power user, but why not allow a power user to go in and enable more features that are 'hidden'. Instead I find myself finding tons of 3rd party apps to do stuff that apple didn't want us doing.

I also find myself fighting a battle between windows and mac harder these days then ever. Mostly because Apple is trying to interop with Windows file sharing, windows printing, etc. I have found myself pulling my hair out trying to get these things to work stable for long periods of time. Most of the time I end up with a spinning beach ball of death or having to reboot or force restart/quit something. I end up with egg on my face every time I try to show a windows guy how compatible mac is with PC.

I think Apple should stop screwing around with SAMBA and just goto friggin microsoft and say, "How much would it cost to license your SMB and print share code from you so we can finally play nicely?" That's what APPLE did with Adaptec to get CD Burning build into the OS, why not with something as important as filesharing and printing????

 

[animefan_1]

Oh, I thought you meant like the character from 'Footballers Wives'.

Even if it's almost 2 years away, Finder is long overdue for more than just a lick of paint...

Actually, it's only 1-1.5 years away.

I can't wait till next year's WWDC. The only downside is that I'm probably going to be even more excited after I see what Leopard has to offer.

 

[shidoshi]

My big complaint about the Finder is that there are so many things that started, and then have been left without any updates at all. Column View is a great example of that. We're four major revising into OS X, and almost nothing has really been updated about Column View in that entire time. As somebody who uses CV a lot, it is really frustrating, because there are too many times that I have to swap back and fourth between different types of views, just to do simple things that should be able to be done in CV.

Below is a (now somewhat old) mock-up I made of an idea for a new Finder. The point isn't to bring in ALL of those ideas, the point was just to bring up a host of different ideas of what maybe could be done. A few things I'd really like to see are:


(And before anybody says "I don't want that option!", I'd want to see everything optional, so that you don't have to use it if you don't want to.)

Sidebar Sets
The four animal (could be any character) buttons above the sidebar. The idea was that maybe you could have different sets of sidebar items. For example, if I'm working on a website project, I could have one set link to all of the folders I want quick access to that pertain to that website.

MORE ITEM INFO!
I really wish Apple would get on the ball with this. I should be able to have item info up for nearly everything, to provide more feedback instead of having to hunt for it. Why can't my drives tell me how much free space they have? Why can't items in column view have item info so that I don't have to click on each single item, or switch to a different view? Get more use out of item info.

Sorting Options for Column View
In my example, I have one column sorted by folders, then files. Or, have everything sorted by size, or number of items in the folder. Combine this with the extended item info I mentioned above.

Image Previews Direct in Column
I can have a folder in Icon View show me previews for every image contained in it. I want the same for Column View, so I don't have to, again, click on things one at a time to find exactly what I'm looking for, or switch to Icon View.

Of course, with the fact that OS X doesn't even remember how wide I want columns generally between restarts, it seems like Apple doesn't give a damn about making Column View better.

We'll see what happens with the Finder. I'm not much of a Windows fan, but it really seems like the Windows Explorer offers so many features and different options for browsing files and folders, and it makes OS X look a bit sad in comparison. I hope and prey Apple gets serious about the Finder.

Beyond that, give me the ability to tag anything and everything with any kind of metadata I want (no, again, Spotlight comments AREN'T THE SAME THING), and let me show all of my metadata columns in the Finder, ala iTunes.

 

[Marky_Mark]

Again the whining club raises its ugly head in Mac forums...I've NEVER HAD any serious issue with Tiger both on my iMac G5 and my iBook G3, since 10.4.0 and on to 10.4.1 and 10.4.2.

I'm a recent switcher and I can't believe what I'm reading! You guys must be kidding! I've used Windows 3.1, 3.11, 95. 98, 2K and XP and I can tell you that OS x is incomparable to Windows in ease of use, stability, ascetics and architecture. The union of hardware and software has been an absolute delight to use, and merely the fact that the firewall is rock solid and I have no issues with viruses and spyware makes it a no-brainer before all else.

I was using my work-issued Windows XP IBM the other day and it arbitrarily decided that it wouldn't recognise my USB attached HP laserjet any longer - it's been directly attached to that machine for 9 mths without a problem, but one day it decided it wouldn't work. Just like that. no reason. My neighbour bought a new Logitech USB mouse. Not sophisticated, just a regular mouse. Scroll wheel won't work. Driver's loaded, hardware wizard run through, choices made. just won't work. Why? Who knows.

Believe me. Mac OS X is the best operating system on the market. You guys really need to learn when you're on a good thing. When the alternative can't run something as fundamental as a mouse without ballsing it up, there's something wrong.