Mac Shipments Down in Q4 2019 Amid Overall PC Market Growth

[Darth Tulhu]

And that's just the Air. I like to get 17" but no freaking way I'm paying $2400+ for a 16" Mac! I can get a PC Laptop with decent specs for me for HALF.

That's the rub. In the current, cloud-based landscape, it becomes increasingly difficult to justify a Mac purchase when there's so many Windows PCs that are more than serviceable, have more features and are in many ways far more flexible than a Mac, not just on price.

Aaand they integrate with the Apple ecosystem via iCloud, so post-pc'ers can access their main devices easily (enough).

I fear macOS is on the way out.

 

[smulji]

Unfortunately the poster you are responding to is spreading FUD.

Apple computers are suscpetible to ransomware just like windows. This is an old talking point that dates back to pre-x86 Apple computers that didn't get the same sort of windows Viruses that were popular at the time.

These were self propogating spreading viruses that could destroy your machine, which windows used to be holy susceptible to because of a lack of controls.

However, in 2020: Most Malware are not actually viruses but just malicious programs that convince you to run them. Once you run them and provide them access to your system, the platform is often irrelevant since they rely often on other software layers to execute such as Word macros or javascript in a browser window.

Malware today that tends to lock your files out are prevelant on all Operating systems including Mac's.

macOS is a great OS for it's own rights. But the FUD of "macs are just safer" is not as accurate as it used to be.

Regardless of what product you go with, be diligent in what you open and run and ensure that if you do run anything from a 3rd party source, you verify it before hand. f you get any emails from unknown sources that contain attachments, your best bet is to not run and delete it immediately

Regardless of what OS you are running on.

Here is some evidence of Malware that directly affected MacOS in 2019: https://www.sentinelone.com/blog/macos-malware-2019-first-six-months/

the key here is no OS is flawless and you need to use your own common sense to prevent being compromised. Don't have a false sense of security because someone on the internet without evidence claimed that one platform was better than the other. (and that includes me, so go double check what I claim as well)
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Haven't you been saying this since the first time apple claimed it in like 2010?

and yet here we are in 2020 and the "PC" is still selling like hotcakes and most people have at least one in the house (even if it's just a laptop)

the "post PC" rhetoric was just marketing and sales. in reality, a combination of all products to fit peoples lifestyles is how the market has actually responded. With the people buying trucks that need it, and the people buying sports cars who want those.

neither is wrong. Neither is bad. people just rely upon the tech that helps them accomplsih a task the way they're comfortable. and for many, that is still an actual computer.

"and yet here we are in 2020 and the "PC" is still selling like hotcakes and most people have at least one in the house (even if it's just a laptop) "

I wouldn't say the PC is selling like hotcakes. I would say it has stabilized since it's still down at least 30% from its peak sales in 2011. What are you witnessing businesses replacing Win7 machines with Win10 machines since Win7 is now officially EOL. You're correct in saying that many households do have PC's but many of those were bought before the advent of the smartphone era. How many of those have actually been replaced with new machines vs just laying around and hardly being used?

Remember, before the advent of modern smartphones, the average user was buying PC's just to get on the internet and do basic tasks, tasks which pretty much all premium smartphones can handle. If you're not creating content, I would go as far as to say you don't need more than a smartphone.
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That's the rub. In the current, cloud-based landscape, it becomes increasingly difficult to justify a Mac purchase when there's so many Windows PCs that are more than serviceable, have more features and are in many ways far more flexible than a Mac, not just on price.

Aaand they integrate with the Apple ecosystem via iCloud, so post-pc'ers can access their main devices easily (enough).

I fear macOS is on the way out.

"I fear macOS is on the way out. "

I don't think it's on the way out. I think it'll be relegated to high-end creative professional users.

 

[realtuner]

FACT 1- Apple is NOT releasing sales numbers anymore. I wonder why...
FACT 2- In the last 5 years computer prices have gone up. That indicates that even if sales are the same or slightly lower, they are still selling less units.
FACT 3- MBP 2016+ has been one of the worse products Apple ever released, having design and quality issues.
FACT 4- The entire computer line up (except the Mac Pro, that is NOT affordable) is overpriced, lack of innovation and lack of up to date specs. i.e. iMac still ships in 2020 with a 5400 rpm drive and 8GB Ram.

You can choose to ignore them, but those are facts.

Simply putting the word FACT in front of your opinions doesn't make them true.

 

[LordVic]

"and yet here we are in 2020 and the "PC" is still selling like hotcakes and most people have at least one in the house (even if it's just a laptop) "

I wouldn't say the PC is selling like hotcakes. I would say it has stabilized since it's still down at least 30% from its peak sales in 2011. What are you witnessing businesses replacing Win7 machines with Win10 machines since Win7 is now officially EOL. You're correct in saying that many households do have PC's but many of those were bought before the advent of the smartphone era. How many of those have actually been replaced with new machines vs just laying around and hardly being used?

Remember, before the advent of modern smartphones, the average user was buying PC's just to get on the internet and do basic tasks, tasks which pretty much all premium smartphones can handle. If you're not creating content, I would go as far as to say you don't need more than a smartphone.
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"I fear macOS is on the way out. "

I don't think it's on the way out. I think it'll be relegated to high-end creative professional users.

yup. I think the modern era is great. I wouldn't call it the "post pc" era in which PC's are dead though.

what we have now is choice. SOO MUCH CHOICE. mobile choices, desktop choices. we're in the golden age of computing as far as I am concerned in which every single person could thoeretically get online via so many options all at once.

it's fantastic.

Mac OS on it's way out? NAHHHHHHHHHH. it's probably in one of the best positions it's ever been. As long as Apple doesn't somehow completely implode their PC business, it'll be fine.

 

[macsimcon]

The vast majority of the several million folks that don’t want a Windows or Linux PC realize they don’t need a Mac to do what meager things they need to do. Add in the fact that an iPad has the option to be “always on” the internet on some unlimited data plan, and you’ve got a combination of the right features with the right connectivity at the right price that a Mac can’t touch.

Can we please stop equating the iPad with the Mac? The iPad is mainly a content consumption device. I NEVER see iPads on the desks of our corporate customers, but I see tons of Macs. The iPad's interface, with a few exceptions, is more difficult to create content with. Storage is fixed, CPU is fixed, memory is fixed. It's an appliance, and nobody wants to use it with an attachable keyboard and kickstand when they have a MacBook available as an alternative.
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Simply putting the word FACT in front of your opinions doesn't make them true.

Where is he wrong? I suppose you could argue number four, but Apple has indeed raised prices as we head into a worldwide recession. Tim needs to stop acting like John Sculley, and start acting more like Steve Jobs.

 

[vinegarshots]

it is FACT: The cheapest MacBook air in 2011 was $999 CAD. The cheapest MacBook air today is $1449.

MY Canadian spending power did NOT increase 50% in 10 years. Neither did the vast majority of the population.

Thus, the result is fewer international sales.

https://www.bankofcanada.ca/rates/related/inflation-calculator/

it is fact that something that cost $999 CAD in 2011 is $1,127 CAD in 2020, just from your currency's inflation alone. So that's a 23% difference in price, not 50%.

it is also fact that if you put that $999 CAD in your wallet in 2011 and took it out today, it lost $235 of purchasing power for USA products.

Your currency lost value, so you want the price of goods adjusted downward to negate the loss of value in your currency. That doesn't really seem to make much sense.

I don't think Apple's US customers would be too happy if they gave away their products to other countries for a fraction of the price, simply to accommodate different exchange rates.

 

[compwiz1202]

That's the rub. In the current, cloud-based landscape, it becomes increasingly difficult to justify a Mac purchase when there's so many Windows PCs that are more than serviceable, have more features and are in many ways far more flexible than a Mac, not just on price.

Aaand they integrate with the Apple ecosystem via iCloud, so post-pc'ers can access their main devices easily (enough).

I fear macOS is on the way out.

Yea at one point I was on the fence for a Mac if my Lenovo dies, and then the prices went nuts for the same or worse specs, and I fell back on the PC side.

 

[macsimcon]

Mac OS on it's way out? NAHHHHHHHHHH. it's probably in one of the best positions it's ever been. As long as Apple doesn't somehow completely implode their PC business, it'll be fine.

And yet there's so much more macOS could do. Why doesn't Apple do it? Why not create an OS which checks the validity of every block written? Why not built-in redundancy so there's virtually no chance of data loss? And while we're on the subject, why is there only one iCloud backup? Why can't Apple allow a customer to automatically back up with iTunes and also automatically back up that same device to iCloud? Why no Mac backup to iCloud? If I'm paying for 2 TB of iCloud storage, shouldn't I get to use it all, using whatever space is free for backups? Apple sells me 2 TB of storage, but won't let me use it for automatic backups. And why is iCloud Drive so damn slow compared to Dropbox?

 

[Unregistered 4U]

When Microsoft and Dell are leading you in design and innovation

Apple doesn’t do “concepts”, the closest thing they’ve done is AirPower according to Daring Fireball, and I’d have to agree

I'm sure that applies to a percentage of users but I seriously doubt it's significant.

It's not about CPU/GPU power. Simple tasks like typing, editing a word document, or working a spreadsheet are a PITA compared to a macOS/Windows laptop or even a chromebook.

If Macs were selling better than iPads, then that would indicate that iPads aren’t compelling solutions. However, iPads are outselling Macs by a significant margin. As everything is about trade offs, folks are finding that, for the price and the ability to be online anywhere, the inconveniences are worth working around. And, again, most folks aren’t working spreadsheets or editing Word documents (more like surfing the web and writing email). And, if they don’t like the typing performance, they can buy a keyboard and still be cheaper than a MacBook AND have more online options than a MacBook.
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the pen for the Surface was total garbage

It truly was, prediction was bad, tracking was off, just wasn’t even in the same league as what Apple released.

The Mac needs more problems like this with Windows to Stay alive.

What the Mac REALLY needs is for iOS and iPadOS to not exist. With those cheaper solutions out there, the Mac doesn’t have a chance to come anywhere near the sales of iOS devices.

License Mac OS to third parties; that'll fix* the Mac!

So, I was thinking of this the other day, and I don’t think it’d be a bad way for the Mac to ride off into the sunset. Once Apple’s got the Services thing well underway, and iOS/iPadOS has replaced it for 98% of the use cases, they could release what’s left to those folks that think it’d be a cool thing to tinker with. Then again, Apple didn’t do that with the Apple II, so not likely to do it with macOS either.

 

[mi7chy]

I'm an IT security nerd. Your justification for Mac is summed up with one word: ransomware.
One hit and you would have just paid for the defense against that with your Mac. Get a Mac. Don't look back. You can't buy enough anti-Crap for Windows to avoid today's harsh landscape.

You sure you're not help desk? Ransomware is a social engineering problem. You have to fix/educate the user.

 

[Darth Tulhu]

Haven't you been saying this since the first time apple claimed it in like 2010?

and yet here we are in 2020 and the "PC" is still selling like hotcakes and most people have at least one in the house (even if it's just a laptop)

the "post PC" rhetoric was just marketing and sales. in reality, a combination of all products to fit peoples lifestyles is how the market has actually responded. With the people buying trucks that need it, and the people buying sports cars who want those.

neither is wrong. Neither is bad. people just rely upon the tech that helps them accomplsih a task the way they're comfortable. and for many, that is still an actual computer.

You may have missed the "average consumer" part. I am not saying one's better than the other (I'll give up the mac when my apprentice kills me).

I'm saying the revolution already happened.

Here's my rationale:

With all the devices out there being so powerful, I guess the definition of what a "real" computer is and does needs to be more specific. So I guess that's where the marketing rhetoric comes in. Personally, I narrow down the revolution to the touch-based interface, combined with mobile communications and the cloud. In a sense, even Windows became a Post-PC OS.

EVERYONE has a post-pc device. And while yes, initially it was a LOT of marketing, I think that once the transitional period we're in is over (it will be sooner than later), Steve's analogy will show that it is spot-on. You used to need a "computer" for EVERYTHING. Now you only "need" it for work and games. That's it. And tablets are taking over the work part in a LOT of spaces.

Retirees and those that don't work or game have no need for a computer at all. Those that do work usually get one issued.

In my house, my kids, my wife, my mother.... no one in my household besides me uses the three Macs I own, outside of gaming. They use their mobile devices for everything, including homework. When family stays over they don't even ask for the WiFi password anymore.

 

[RogueWarrior65]

I'll bet if they reintroduced 32-bit app support the numbers would go up.
This is why I haven't jumped on the 16-inch MBP regardless of cost.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

"PC" is still selling like hotcakes

The Personal Computer known as the Mac is selling FAR worse than iPadOS devices. Extending that, the iPadOS devices are also outselling all of the laptops made by all of the major vendors.

I think it'll be relegated to high-end creative professional users.

I think there will come a time where the number of Macs they can possibly sell will be less than it’s worth building. By that time, iPadOS can have evolved to cover the needs of even the creative professional users.

As long as Apple doesn't somehow completely implode their PC business, it'll be fine.

So, just to let you know, Apple totally plans to implode their PC business.

Can we please stop equating the iPad with the Mac?

The whole “consumption” argument forgets that MOST people use computers of ALL types for consumption. People use Macs for consumption, and they use iPadOS for consumption. When you’re talking about consumption, the iPad is cheaper and lighter... can be used in more places than a Mac. So, folks have replaced their Mac consumption device for an iPad consumption device... the comparison is valid.

 

[AZREOSpecialist]

Not surprising. Apple has shown zero innovation in their Mac line. The accolades received by the 16" MBP are undeserved, as folks are praising the laptop for not being a disaster like the previous generation. That's not innovation. Mac has same basic design from 10 years ago. Nobody wants to buy that, come on.

 

[smulji]

Can we please stop equating the iPad with the Mac? The iPad is mainly a content consumption device. I NEVER see iPads on the desks of our corporate customers, but I see tons of Macs. The iPad's interface, with a few exceptions, is more difficult to create content with. Storage is fixed, CPU is fixed, memory is fixed. It's an appliance, and nobody wants to use it with an attachable keyboard and kickstand when they have a MacBook available as an alternative.
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Where is he wrong? I suppose you could argue number four, but Apple has indeed raised prices as we head into a worldwide recession. Tim needs to stop acting like John Sculley, and start acting more like Steve Jobs.

Tim Cook should act like Tim Cook.
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You may have missed the "average consumer" part. I am not saying one's better than the other (I'll give up the mac when my apprentice kills me).

I'm saying the revolution already happened.

Here's my rationale:

With all the devices out there being so powerful, I guess the definition of what a "real" computer is and does needs to be more specific. So I guess that's where the marketing rhetoric comes in. Personally, I narrow down the revolution to the touch-based interface, combined with mobile communications and the cloud. In a sense, even Windows became a Post-PC OS.

EVERYONE has a post-pc device. And while yes, initially it was a LOT of marketing, I think that once the transitional period we're in is over (it will be sooner than later), Steve's analogy will show that it is spot-on. You used to need a "computer" for EVERYTHING. Now you only "need" it for work and games. That's it. And tablets are taking over the work part in a LOT of spaces.

Retirees and those that don't work or game have no need for a computer at all. Those that do work usually get one issued.

In my house, my kids, my wife, my mother.... no one in my household besides me uses the three Macs I own, outside of gaming. They use their mobile devices for everything, including homework. When family stays over they don't even ask for the WiFi password anymore.

"And tablets are taking over the work part in a LOT of spaces. "

Outside of the creative professional sphere, I hardly (if ever) see tablets in work scenarios.
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So, just to let you know, Apple totally plans to implode their PC business.

Based on?

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Based on?

The Mac just can’t exist indefinitely and, regardless of the pain that many users of macOS feel, iOS and iPadOS users are able to do all the things they used to do on macOS.

At this point, there’s two use cases that are critically important to Apple that REQUIRE a Mac, and that’s to use their pro apps like Final Cut Pro X and Logic Pro and development for iOS apps. If we ever see either of those things shown running on iPadOS, then you’ll have seen the beginning of the end of macOS. (This is assuming that Apple doesn’t just EOL FCPX and Logic Pro )

 

[itguy06]

Where is he wrong? I suppose you could argue number four, but Apple has indeed raised prices as we head into a worldwide recession. Tim needs to stop acting like John Sculley, and start acting more like Steve Jobs.

That's the thing that scares me the most. Tim is following John's playbook and we all know how that turned out. It's one good Android phone (or even MS if they keep doing Android stuff) from imploding.
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Dells new XPS' are sexy.

You blind? They are fugly and with Dell's God Awful quality bottom of the barrel. Rather have an HP Spectre or Lenovo Thinkpad or Yoga. Or an Abacus before a POS Dell.
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The point remains. Keyboard “issues” are totally overstated here. The quality and long term usability of Macs is proven to be superior to Windows machines.

LOL. Denial is not only a river in Egypt. When perennial Apple cheerleader Dave Sparks goes through 2 or 3 keyboards and has to acknowledge there's an issue then you know you have a problem. Even Katie got a bum Macbook or 2 in recent years. Their laptops are getting worse for quality and that's a shame.

 

[smulji]

The Mac just can’t exist indefinitely and, regardless of the pain that many users of macOS feel, iOS and iPadOS users are able to do all the things they used to do on macOS.

At this point, there’s two use cases that are critically important to Apple that REQUIRE a Mac, and that’s to use their pro apps like Final Cut Pro X and Logic Pro and development for iOS apps. If we ever see either of those things shown running on iPadOS, then you’ll have seen the beginning of the end of macOS. (This is assuming that Apple doesn’t just EOL FCPX and Logic Pro )

"The Mac just can’t exist indefinitely" => That may turn out to be true but what leaves me skeptical is the interview Phil Schiller gave late last year when promoting the 16" MBP;

"You don't envision a future where they (Mac & iPad) merge?

No, that's not our view. Because then you get this in-between thing, and in-between things are never as good as the individual things themselves. We believe the best personal computer is a Mac, and we want to keep going down that path. And we think the best tablet computing device is an iPad, and we'll go down that path. "

Apple's Phil Schiller on reinventing the new MacBook Pro keyboard

Apple's marketing chief shares his thoughts on butterfly vs. scissor keyboards and whether the 16-inch MacBook Pro's Magic Keyboard will appear in other Macs.

www.cnet.com

 

[Unregistered 4U]

and start acting more like Steve Jobs.

Would that be Steve ‘I would milk the mac for all it’s worth’ Jobs? If so, seems like he’s doing exactly that.

 

[Peperino]

Simply putting the word FACT in front of your opinions doesn't make them true.

Peperino said:
FACT 1- Apple is NOT releasing sales numbers anymore. I wonder why...
FACT 2- In the last 5 years computer prices have gone up. That indicates that even if sales are the same or slightly lower, they are still selling less units.
FACT 3- MBP 2016+ has been one of the worse products Apple ever released, having design and quality issues.
FACT 4- The entire computer line up (except the Mac Pro, that is NOT affordable) is overpriced, lack of innovation and lack of up to date specs. i.e. iMac still ships in 2020 with a 5400 rpm drive and 8GB Ram.

You can choose to ignore them, but those are facts.

ONCE AGAIN, you might choose to ignore but most of my points are actual FACTS.

IT IS a FACT that Apple is NOT releasing sales numbers. If you do not know that, then inform yourself.
IT IS A FACT that Apple increased prices about 20% (Macbook Air, MBP, etc) to almost 60% in the case of Mac Minis.
IT IS a FACT (and my opinion as well) that the MBP 2016 has been one of the worse products Apple ever design. They try to fix the keyboard 3 years in a row until they actually give up and go back to the old design.
IT IS a FACT that the iMac base still ships with a 5400rpm in 2020.

And you saying that is not true does not mean that they are still actual facts.
Many people deny still deny the holocaust, but it was a real fact.

 

[sideshowuniqueuser]

The RAM is literally just two chips on the logic board now. Making it user-replaceable would make the machine way thicker.

Thicker - yes please.

 

[Poisonivy326]

I still think Apple missed an opportunity with the iPad Pro to make it like the Surface Pro -- a convertible tablet that runs MacOS. As of now the iPad Pro is just a bigger iPad.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

That may turn out to be true but what leaves me skeptical is the interview Phil Schiller gave late last year when promoting the 16" MBP

Apple kept going down the Apple II path until the day the path ended. I’m sure the same will be true for the Mac in the nearer future and iOS/iPadOS in the further future (by which time the next thing will be ascendant).

 

[Peperino]

The RAM is literally just two chips on the logic board now. Making it user-replaceable would make the machine way thicker.

Apple has been obsessively trying to go thinner and thinner since 2016+. Did it work well? I do not think so.
Bad keyboard, lack of ports, no mag safe and all soldered non upgradable machine.
Furthermore the new MBP 16 is a bit thicker.
It will be great to have lighter MBP, but not at the cost of functionality, and at the cost that you cannot upgrade, and lose all your data. Especially not in a "Pro" machine. Users are tired of disposable machines, and on top they are NOT good for the environment either.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

I still think Apple missed an opportunity with the iPad Pro to make it like the Surface Pro -- a convertible tablet that runs MacOS. As of now the iPad Pro is just a bigger iPad.

The thing is, though, comparing the sales of the iPad versus the Surface, the iPad is selling a heckuvalot better. It’s not even close. SO, Apple MAY have dodged a bullet by making the iPad Pro like the Surface Pro.

Users are tired of disposable machines

The sales of the iPad would disagree. Then again, there’s not a single system made today that’s not disposable.
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It is a FACT that Apple laptops have screens.
It is a FACT that the vast majority of folks in Apple Stores got there through some kind of doorway/opening.
It is a FACT, (also my opinion) that the Mac Pro is just too dang shiny.
It is a FACT that the iPad Mini, in 2020 ships with two speakers.

So, you know, take that for what it’s worth. Read between the lines.