Macbook Released

[poppe]

The midline MB for a college student is actually only $1199, so its a pretty good deal, its $150 more than the lowest end version. Id pay $150 for the superdrive and extra processing power. Itll actually most likely be my college computer, gonna get the midline one with 1gig(or I might just buy 2 gigs online), 80gb hd, mini dvi to vga adapter, apple care, and a mighty mouse for $1534. Then all i need is a case, speakers, and an mini dvi/dvi to hdmi adapter for my hdtv and im set.

If youve got the money for a decent video camera in college youve likely got enough to pay the extra $150 for a superdrive.

Well acctaully if a camera can now run $150-200 (no not 3CCD or anything) but college is about saving money. And most college students aren't droping cash for a video camera there parents are dropping a $300 one as a graduation present, while your stuck with a bill for a MB.

I completely agree with you however on how cheap it is what you are getting, but you did not get my first post on here I think. What I was saying is that while the MB is amazing and a great price my mom does not give a rats ass! about a processor increase or 2 Gs of ram. I tried to sell her on the better one by telling her about the processor increase and HDD increase. Do you know what she said? she said what is a hard drive? Is that a good increase or is 20Gbs not so much?

My point is once again, beautiful laptop, I just wish for my mothers sake there was the ability to have a low end one with a superdrive.

I understand its only $1199/1299 for the middle one, but when you say it out loud to some one who watching their money. saying 999 vs. 1199 is a huge difference. Huge difference. though it might not be; especially when they don't care about HDD or processor.

 

[Gatezone]

...The difference, by the way, between a superdrive option and a video card option on the MacBook is that one of them requires a complete redesign of the entire computer and the other does not. Swapping out a modular part like a keyboard or the display or a drive is not even remotely comparable to changing the graphics arrangement.

This is a design and engineering challenge, not a reason to opt for the one-size-fits all can't handle graphics or drive options. They had to redesign the case and other components anyway. It is obvious that this wasn't a complete redesign but it comes pretty close, no?

The frustrating thing is hearing people who would under other circumstances tout the innovative design and creative 'core' of Apple turn around and act like design and engineering challenges are just too expensive. Shall we talk about lame television commercials...

Should we talk about the engineering skill necessary to create the iPod video player? But it's too much to have a case, system board, and components that can handle options like we are talking about here? I don't buy it.

 

[matticus008]

What you are saying doesn't completely track for me. I see the split as produce a several metal case 15 inch laptops and several 13 inch plastic case laptops and say that the plastic case laptops are for consumers or low end users and the metal case ones are for professionals. That is a split that is for me, bizarre.

But again, the consumer/professional split is an artificial one that you're creating. MacBook/MacBook Pro are just names. From an objective standpoint, they're just different models of a notebook computer. Dell does this too. They have an Inspiron 600 series and an 1100 series and some others, and they have Latitude and XPS lines, and so on. Apple has 3 notebook computer lines, and they might as well be called MacBook 13, 15, and 17. I guess I just don't understand how Apple is doing anything different from anyone else, so maybe I'm just missing something here.

Simplify the product line and provide options that means the market and audience can determine it's own level and price points. Scale the price according to all the normal business costs that are already part of the formula.

They have. Adding more any more configuration options complicates the product line. The only way to simplify would be to reduce the available options even further. There's no way to add things like optional ports, expansion cards, and offer both integrated and discrete graphics options without increasing prices on all products.

What is the rationale for the dead-end (yes it's an over dramatic statement)Macbook that forces users who wants a small form factor to have to live with integrated graphics?

The rationale is that comparably priced and competitively positioned systems also have integrated graphics. The decision is that the smaller MacBook is the entry-level MacBook. Are there small notebooks more powerful than the MacBook? Yes. Are they competitively positioned against the MacBook? No.

While they can't scale at Dell's level they could order more units of the 'generic' level and do the final configuratioin themselves and they might save enough (and actually not run out) with their larger orders of the generic form factor systems than smaller orders guessing at how many people will say screw it I'll buy a small system and give up the graphics.

I see the idea motivating your thoughts, and it works on an abstract level, but it can't be applied to actual production operations. If we were talking about desktop PCs with expansion bays, then yes, that would work. But on a notebook, you don't have that same flexibility. Graphics, sound, networking and wireless and expansion capabilities are built directly into the logic board so you can't order a "generic" system and then tailor it later. Each option requires a different logic board, and particularly with graphics, often requires a more extensive redesign. The difference in heat and needed volume for discrete graphics means that you need an entirely new computer when switching from integrated to non-integrated solutions. It's not like switching from a combo drive, or replacing Firewire 400 with 800.

 

[ImAlwaysRight]

Nice shootout between iBook and MacBook

12" iBook vs. 13" MacBook Shootout

LINK

They rate the Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 950 of the MacBook above the iBook's ATI Mobility Radeon 9550.

Overall, quite a nice little comparison.

 

[Gatezone]

...I understand its only $1199/1299 for the middle one, but when you say it out loud to some one who watching their money. saying 999 vs. 1199 is a huge difference. Huge difference. though it might not be; especially when they don't care about HDD or processor.

When you say a lot of things about computers out loud they don't make a lot of sense... With the situation where a person wants to do a specific thing like burn DVD's or play a game what's in the system that allows you to do those things should not need to be mentioned out loud. But you should be able to order them and not have to think, well this is a consumer level entry level system and so it can't play these games or burn these types of DVD's, I have to get an almost identical system but it is called a midlevel system because it if you really study these geeky specifications you can see it has some other features and capabilities.

It's a joke and the HS that Apple piles up deeper and deeper about simple is funny till it bites you in the a** when you're trying to buy a Mac for someone and the product distinctions are dumb.

 

[poppe]

Hahaha yeah...

 

[MacVault]

This is a design and engineering challenge, not a reason to opt for the one-size-fits all can't handle graphics or drive options. They had to redesign the case and other components anyway. It is obvious that this wasn't a complete redesign but it comes pretty close, no?

The frustrating thing is hearing people who would under other circumstances tout the innovative design and creative 'core' of Apple turn around and act like design and engineering challenges are just too expensive. Shall we talk about lame television commercials...

Should we talk about the engineering skill necessary to create the iPod video player? But it's too much to have a case, system board, and components that can handle options like we are talking about here? I don't buy it.

Amen! Megga dittos, Gatezone! And.. "lame commercials", yes - SUPER LAME

 

[Gatezone]

But again, the consumer/professional split is an artificial one that you're creating. MacBook/MacBook Pro are just names. From an objective standpoint, they're just different models of a notebook computer. Dell does this too. They have an Inspiron 600 series and an 1100 series and some others, and they have Latitude and XPS lines, and so on. Apple has 3 notebook computer lines, and they might as well be called MacBook 13, 15, and 17. I guess I just don't understand how Apple is doing anything different from anyone else, so maybe I'm just missing something here.


They have. Adding more any more configuration options complicates the product line. The only way to simplify would be to reduce the available options even further. There's no way to add things like optional ports, expansion cards, and offer both integrated and discrete graphics options without increasing prices on all products.


The rationale is that comparably priced and competitively positioned systems also have integrated graphics. The decision is that the smaller MacBook is the entry-level MacBook. Are there small notebooks more powerful than the MacBook? Yes. Are they competitively positioned against the MacBook? No.


I see the idea motivating your thoughts, and it works on an abstract level, but it can't be applied to actual production operations. If we were talking about desktop PCs with expansion bays, then yes, that would work. But on a notebook, you don't have that same flexibility. Graphics, sound, networking and wireless and expansion capabilities are built directly into the logic board so you can't order a "generic" system and then tailor it later. Each option requires a different logic board, and particularly with graphics, often requires a more extensive redesign. The difference in heat and needed volume for discrete graphics means that you need an entirely new computer when switching from integrated to non-integrated solutions. It's not like switching from a combo drive, or replacing Firewire 400 with 800.

Hey I appreciate your response. I think when you read some of what you wrote in the first part of this the 'simple' Apple product lines don't sound very simple. And it may be, in part, the way they present the product line. People here, and in the press, are getting the 'consumer/student' lower end label somewhere and I think some of it comes from Apple. I'm not making that up.

When it comes to Dell's laptops they do some 'creative' product positioning too, no doubt about it.

I understand about the difference with laptop production, yet I seee there being economies of scale that could provide more options in each form factor size that would make more sense and enable Apple to keep making a healthy profit.

I want a small portable mac that doesn't exist yet. Last week at this time I was expecting to go out and give Apple a couple thousand dollars and have the smaller, lighter, more versatile replacement for my PB 15 inch which I sold two weeks ago. Now I may have to get a Sony.

 

[matticus008]

This is a design and engineering challenge, not a reason to opt for the one-size-fits all can't handle graphics or drive options. They had to redesign the case and other components anyway. It is obvious that this wasn't a complete redesign but it comes pretty close, no?

I'm not referring to the MacBook's redesign as a replacement for the iBook. I mean that an integrated graphics MacBook and a discrete graphics MacBook would be two totally separate computers with different internal designs, different cooling systems, different power systems, and different logic boards even if all other components and specifications were exactly the same.

It says nothing of Apple's "creative" side or their ability to innovate. Apple can and does excellent work. It's having multiple simultaneous products that costs too much. There are currently 3 notebooks. Adding a MacBook with discrete graphics increases engineering workload by 33% to the notebook teams, and adding an ExpressCard option to each of those two creates two more models. Just those changes alone take the MacBook from one model to four, plus the two MBP models. It is impossible to have a single design that supports the options you seek.

These are the parts that can be modified without any modification to the logic board: display, keyboard, trackpad, hard drive, RAM amount, optical drive, speakers, battery capacity. Even something as subtle as FireWire 800 requires a different lower case, because the port is different. On a motherboard design with discrete graphics to begin with, different GPUs can be offered just as different CPUs can be ordered. But on a system that has integrated graphics, moving up to discrete or embedded graphics is a totally different ball of wax.

What you're asking for is more computer models, not more BTO options. No one computer model from any manufacturer offers the scope of BTO options you're requesting, and it's already been explained that Apple cannot support as many different models as Dell or even HP. So if you were confined to a handful of models, you would choose the ones that covered the broadest bases, and that's exactly what they've done.

 

[drumzkiqass]

Hmm.

I'm a little disappointed as to the graphics cards in the macbooks. I mean it's a great deal for the laptop itself, but 64MB VRAM? That means you can't run motion right?
It specifically leaves out the macbook under the system requirements. It includes macbook pro and everything.
"Motion requires the standard graphics card found in any MacBook Pro, iMac Intel Core Duo, Power Mac G5, iMac G5, a 1.25 GHz or faster PowerBook G4, or a 1.25 GHz or faster flat-panel iMac."

http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/specs.html?motion

That means then macbook can't use motion, correct?

 

[Gatezone]

I'm not referring to the MacBook's redesign as a replacement for the iBook. I mean that an integrated graphics MacBook and a discrete graphics MacBook would be two totally separate computers with different internal designs, different cooling systems, different power systems, and different logic boards even if all other components and specifications were exactly the same.

Separate internals to *some* degree but don't over-state it and take away from your underlying and reasonable point.

Let me at the design teams... this is not the Mt. Everest that you make it seem. And of course it is a challenge to find the economic, design, future development track to make it work. My guess is they are working on it because the product split (again I am not making up the different names of the two types of systems...) is silly. They are just different size laptops unless you force all the smaller laptops to have 'clipped' specifications. Call them all Macbooks and drop the elite sounding and distinction of the Pro model if they are really not artificially split.

It says nothing of Apple's "creative" side or their ability to innovate. Apple can and does excellent work. It's having multiple simultaneous products that costs too much. There are currently 3 notebooks. Adding a MacBook with discrete graphics increases engineering workload by 33% to the notebook teams, and adding an ExpressCard option to each of those two creates two more models. Just those changes alone take the MacBook from one model to four, plus the two MBP models. It is impossible to have a single design that supports the options you seek.

The production could be number crunched to work with variant system boards. I think there is more money spent currently maintaining the two product lines than having alternate system boards installed for built to order differences.

These are the parts that can be modified without any modification to the logic board: display, keyboard, trackpad, hard drive, RAM amount, optical drive, speakers, battery capacity. Even something as subtle as FireWire 800 requires a different lower case, because the port is different. On a motherboard design with discrete graphics to begin with, different GPUs can be offered just as different CPUs can be ordered. But on a system that has integrated graphics, moving up to discrete or embedded graphics is a totally different ball of wax.

Yes I understand there would need to be variant system boards, but when you stop to think about it there is an economy of scale at work because really you are talking about the same system board variants in all three sizes. Don't you sort of see where I'm going with this? You flip the thing around and it might become a challenge of how could you use a smaller system board in a larger form factor case. I'm not saying that would work, but that is the type of flip-side thinking about the product line and the important considerations that you bring up that would result in a simplified and perhaps even less expensive (read more profitable or competitive) line of laptops.

 

[MrCrowbar]

Am I the only one actually GLAD the Macbooks have the GMA? Do you know how much battery a dedicated graphics card takes? I bet you would have 1 hour less battery with a dedicated GPU and everyone would complain about that. The Intel graphics chip does very well on 2D stuff actually. Same goes for 7200 rpm hard drive. Granted the performance on a 7200 rpm drive is better, but it all goes on the battery.

I think I'll sell my iMac on eBay and get a pimped out Macbook. I want that 120 GB drive.

 

[Legacy]

It is a good point. As others have said heat may be an issue that keeps everyone from going this route as a routine configuration. The company that offers the choice stands out in this rat race.

I don't understand why Apple couldn't have adopted this line, I'm sure it wouldn't be THAT much more cost effective:

WHITE MODELS:

CD1.66/512MB/40GB/COMBO/GMA950/ISIGHT+FR = $999/£699
CD1.83/512MB/60GB/SUPER/GMA950/ISIGHT+FR = $1299/£899

BLACK MODEL SE:
CD1.83/512MB/80GB/SUPER/X1400 128MB/ISIGHT+FR = $1599/£1099

1. IMO anything more than 1.83 is an overkill for the MacBook, what are you going to use all that power for if you don't have at least a decent enough GPU for gaming?! Battery consumption is far more important I would argue, over a faster chip (esp for the lower models)

2. Why not use the 1.66/40GB combination to bring down the entry price to $999? A 1.66 is far more efficient battery wise, and not everyone needs more than 40GB of space so it would have been a good starting point.

3. Use the 1.83 in the 2nd tier model - NOT the 2.0. OK, so it represents less value for money than the current model offering, but please is .17GHz really that much of a difference? If Apple used a 1.83 in here to increase their profit margins by only something like $20-30, they could use that to pay for the extra costs of adding a dedicated GPU in option 3. Secondly, they wouldnt have to speed bump the MB PRO to 2.0GHz - winning them more profits overall on MB PRO purchases until August, the update really was uncalled for IMO

4. USE THE X1400 128MB in the Black MacBook. It's black for a reason - not because it has 20GB more space, but because its suppose to be somewhat more sleek and prosumer, a X1400 would have almost certainly boosted the sales of this model and not offset MB Pro sales, because of the non-inclusion of the 2.0CD. MB PRO would still maintain the speed, GPU, form factor, screen and features advantage to merit the extra $400.

Kind Regards

 

[Gatezone]

......What you're asking for is more computer models, not more BTO options. No one computer model from any manufacturer offers the scope of BTO options you're requesting, and it's already been explained that Apple cannot support as many different models as Dell or even HP. So if you were confined to a handful of models, you would choose the ones that covered the broadest bases, and that's exactly what they've done.

It's true we are confined...

One thing we don't need are the infintessimal different levels of processor speeds. How worthless are those tiny differences in the low, medium, and high within each of the two non-existent product lines.

 

[drumzkiqass]

Help Please

Does anyone know if the macbook is compatible with motion 2?

http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/specs.html?motion

As dumb as I sound, I can't figure this out, or I don't want to believe it.
Feedback would be very appreciated.

 

[Legacy]

Does anyone know if the macbook is compatible with motion 2?

http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/specs.html?motion

As dumb as I sound, I can't figure this out, or I don't want to believe it.
Feedback would be very appreciated.

I would argue that it is. The flat panel 1.25GHz iMac G4 came with a FX5200 64MB GPU. The GMA950 is at least as good, if not better at these tasks I would have thought?

 

[Gatezone]

Does anyone know if the macbook is compatible with motion 2?

http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/specs.html?motion

As dumb as I sound, I can't figure this out, or I don't want to believe it.
Feedback would be very appreciated.

Didn't you just post the answer to this? I can well understand not wanting to believe some of this stuff. Nothing worse than having the money but not wanting to spend it on the available product.

 

[matticus008]

People here, and in the press, are getting the 'consumer/student' lower end label somewhere and I think some of it comes from Apple. I'm not making that up.

I think it's probably a holdover from the "i" and "Power" days. You're certainly not alone in identifying the consumer/pro models as an either/or situation and I didn't mean to imply that you, individually, were inventing that distinction. Sorry if I did! Apple's use of MacBook and MacBook Pro doesn't help at all, either...I find it easiest just to ignore names and compare on specs.

When it comes to Dell's laptops they do some 'creative' product positioning too, no doubt about it.

No doubt! There's so much choice with Dells that I have a hard time finding the best value among all their offerings. I like to customize things to no end, but I wish Dell had fewer starting points (their website definitely guides you toward certain models). I've made many orders from them for friends, neighbors, and at previous jobs, and I've often spent long nights looking at what are three or four identically equipped computers for 3 different prices. I can definitely understand how a "normal" person would be lost shopping for a computer without a computer-savvy person to help them. Apple appeals to those "normal" people with a more direct approach, yet oddly enough, there are tonnes of quirky Mac fans.

I want a small portable mac that doesn't exist yet.

In time, maybe Apple will go that route. After all, there was a time when portable computer users were a very small group.

 

[drumzkiqass]

Didn't you just post the answer to this? I can well understand not wanting to believe some of this stuff. Nothing worse than having the money but not wanting to spend it on the available product.

Erg. So you'e saying it's a definite no, right? haha. I need closure on this.

 

[Gatezone]

Erg. So you'e saying it's a definite no, right? haha. I need closure on this.

No, I don't have a definitive answer, I just thought you had provided a pretty definitive answer yourself with the link and the quote of the software requirements.

Sorry man...

 

[Gatezone]

A week ago I was all set to buy a Macbook and today I feel good about holding off. This thead was instrumental and helped me keep my head straight (not that anyone else could tell), and not just get swept up with the emotion of the new release.

I'm sure it is a great system for many people, just not for me at this time. I may wait a few more weeks and pick up a 'discarded' 12 incher as cheap as I can get it to tide me over for another six months.

Anyway I appreciate all the informative, entertaining, and challenging dialogue. Matticus where were you earlier while I don't agree with all you say, you say it better than anyone else in here today.

It's a wrap for me...

Good luck with that red Macbook I'll bet I'll walke up to well over 2k of posts in here.

 

[drumzkiqass]

No, I don't have a definitive answer, I just thought you had provided a pretty definitive answer yourself with the link and the quote of the software requirements.

Sorry man...

ah okay, thanks for the help. its fine.

 

[Kaiser Phoenix]

Well of course it's an upgrade, the 12" PB is over a year old (at the minimum) -- it's ancient technology! These comparisons are getting quite delirious...

Don't get me wrong, GMA950 is fine for a mid-range consumer lappy, but frankly it's annoying that people are trying to pass off the MacBook as adequate for playing modern 3D games, it clearly isn't.

I really dont get it. Why do people complain of the GMA950? I mean what do people expect? If you want to play F.E.A.R, OBLIVION, COD2, Laptops can hardly manage them. The only laptops capable of playing the current crop of games would be the Alienware SLI'd Laptops which costs a bomb. Come on, if you buy a macbook, you ARNT buying it to play games. Otherwise, the GMA950 is excellent for everything else.

 

[dejo]

FYI: The cheapest Dell Core Duo laptop with non-integrated graphics is the Inspiron E1705 and costs $1,148. With the integrated graphics, it's $999. So, that separate GPU is costing you $149 more. And it's not even 2GHz (along with many other specs that don't match)...

 

[MrCrowbar]

Erg. So you'e saying it's a definite no, right? haha. I need closure on this.

I'd say it will not work.

"Motion requires the standard graphics card found in any MacBook Pro, iMac Intel Core Duo, Power Mac G5, iMac G5, a 1.25 GHz or faster PowerBook G4, or a 1.25 GHz or faster flat-panel iMac."

The fact that the Mac mini (having the same graphics chip as the Macbook) is not mentioned leads to my interpretation.