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Have you read White Fragility?

I have looked it up on Amazon and while I've read books by Ta-Nehisi Coates - I have not read White Fragility. The amount of negative reviews on Amazon are interesting to say the least, but I don't usually judge a book by its cover. Too many books on my to read list as it is. :/ Why do you recommend it?

My comment was directed to the OP because I had been involved in the thread that the OP was referring to, watched the OP make assumptions about people, including myself who didn't agree and then proceed to call them racist and assume they were <insert a president's name here> voters, etc. That is why I made the comment that I did.
 
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I will back up what @BigMcGuire posted. I was part of that thread too and while the discussion was heated no one was banned but the person he replied to who just repeatedly called everyone a racist and called for bannings.

Try this on for size... if someone posts something you don't agree with challenge them with better ideas or better facts instead of just whipping out the racist label and calling for them to be cancelled.
 
My ignoring it doesn't mean that your site isn't giving a platform for people to be really hateful and to propagate racist ideas. I wasn't subscribed to /r/The_Donald either, but I was still upset that Reddit allowed them to exist on the platform until recently.
I think most people would agree that the First Amendment's prohibition on speech restrictions by the government is a good thing (or maybe not? Maybe people think government should ban offensive speech? I sure hope not, but one never knows these days.). But then you find a private platform, and lots of people advocate for speech restrictions. And I wonder why.

And yes, I fully understand that the First Amendment doesn't apply to private speech. That's not the point. The point is, if we think the First Amendment's allowance of free speech is a good thing when applied to government, why don't we want private forums (such as MR) to act as if it applied to them even though it doesn't?

Personally, I would rather see offensive speech aired in public then limited to hateful little underground places where it festers in darkness and can't be seen or responded to. I will always be a proponent of the Justice Brandeis school of thought - the "marketplace of ideas" - which says that the answer to offensive or wrong speech is not less speech through restriction but more speech through discussion. That allows other speakers to point out the flaws in the offensive or wrong speech and to persuade listeners as to the wrongfulness of the offensive speech.
 
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Moderator Note:

Thread back open after clean up.

Please keep the discussion civil and on-topic and remember this is a site feedback thread discussing how MacRumors deals with racism in our forums. This is not the place for discussing the wide ranging topic of racism in general and such comments should be posted in the PRSI forum.
 
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I think most people would agree that the First Amendment's prohibition on speech restrictions by the government is a good thing (or maybe not? Maybe people think government should ban offensive speech? I sure hope not, but one never knows these days.). But then you find a private platform, and lots of people advocate for speech restrictions. And I wonder why.

And yes, I fully understand that the First Amendment doesn't apply to private speech. That's not the point. The point is, if we think the First Amendment's allowance of free speech is a good thing when applied to government, why don't we want private forums (such as MR) to act as if it applied to them even though it doesn't?

Personally, I would rather see offensive speech aired in public then limited to hateful little underground places where it festers in darkness and can't be seen or responded to. I will always be a proponent of the Justice Brandeis school of thought - the "marketplace of ideas" - which says that the answer to offensive or wrong speech is not less speech through restriction but more speech through discussion. That allows other speakers to point out the flaws in the offensive or wrong speech and to persuade listeners as to the wrongfulness of the offensive speech.
Free speech is a myth, we know we don't have that. One can't yell fire in a movie theater without some consequence. What we have is a guarantee the government cannot make any laws "abridging our freedom of speech".

MacRumors, in other than the news forum, is not stopping anyone from creating and discussing their thoughts, even on divisive, difficult and potentially offensive topics.** They only ask that this discourse is done in a civil and respectful manner. (And some people get that point very well. The others that don't get that point end up on the wrong side of the "mod stick".)

** There obviously is a line in the sand as to what may not constitute an acceptable topic for discussion.

Funny story, at least to me. When we were raising our kids we were very proper and were careful not to use foul language in front of them trying to set an example...at least through high school. Fast forward to today, my grandson is now a year and a half and my daughter in law and son curse like nobody's business in front of our grandson. We have asked them about this and whether they are worried he will start repeating those words. Obviously they are not too worried, or else they wouldn't do this, but we'll see what happens in the future as we have heard our little one, say some of the words. Oh well...they are the parents, not us.
 
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Moderator Note:

Thread back open after clean up.

Please keep the discussion civil and on-topic and remember this is a site feedback thread discussing how MacRumors deals with racism in our forums. This is not the place for discussing the wide ranging topic of racism in general and such comments should be posted in the PRSI forum.
Glad to see you guys are keeping this conversation going, it seems like you truly care to address it and that's a great first step.

It's my hope that MR staff starts taking more subtle content into consideration, not just language. Many people who show racist tendencies do so calmly without personal attacks. I would again refer to the example of Rosa Parks, if one were to say something like "maybe the man who wanted her seat had a long day and he didn't feel like walking to the back of the bus, she was being inconsiderate" would that be considered racist, if so is it actionable? Of course this is just a single example but we do see like posts in PRSI on a regular basis.
 
It's my hope that MR staff starts taking more subtle content into consideration, not just language. Many people who show racist tendencies do so calmly without personal attacks. I would again refer to the example of Rosa Parks, if one were to say something like "maybe the man who wanted her seat had a long day and he didn't feel like walking to the back of the bus, she was being inconsiderate" would that be considered racist, if so is it actionable? Of course this is just a single example but we do see like posts in PRSI on a regular basis.

I wouldn't consider the example you make actionable. However, I am very liberal when it comes to ideas and free speech, so while I do condemn aggressive language, I am for allowing all sort of ideas that are explained in a respectful manner. Yes, this includes ideologies/ideas as awful as nazism, racism, communism, and even what the NAMBLA would proclaim.
 
Glad to see you guys are keeping this conversation going, it seems like you truly care to address it and that's a great first step.

It's my hope that MR staff starts taking more subtle content into consideration, not just language. Many people who show racist tendencies do so calmly without personal attacks. I would again refer to the example of Rosa Parks, if one were to say something like "maybe the man who wanted her seat had a long day and he didn't feel like walking to the back of the bus, she was being inconsiderate" would that be considered racist, if so is it actionable? Of course this is just a single example but we do see like posts in PRSI on a regular basis.
There's also a fair share of you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem type posts.

Should your example be actionable? Or should the poster who posted that be dressed down in the forum by other posts for writing a post that wasn't on the nice of the things? Basically to me that example would amount to censorship, even though some might object to it.
 
”Hate speech”? Any example of hate & racism? Have not seen any here...
 
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The point is, if we think the First Amendment's allowance of free speech is a good thing when applied to government, why don't we want private forums (such as MR) to act as if it applied to them even though it doesn't?
There's a huuuuge difference between facing federal prosecution for your words and being shunned by an online community for your words.
 
”Hate speech”? Any example of hate & racism? Have not seen any here...
Right now prsi doesn’t exist on this site if you aren’t registered, logged in, and have 100 posts.
As a new member with less than 100 posts you can't see discussions in the PRSI forum which is where it's most likely to be posted. Any hate speech posted in the forums is usually spotted and reported by other forum members and dealt with by the moderators if they agree it is breaking the forum rules.
 
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What is hate speech then. Heard about it but not seen any? ”I hate you”?
 
MacRumors, in other than the news forum, is not stopping anyone from creating and discussing their thoughts, even on divisive, difficult and potentially offensive topics.** They only ask that this discourse is done in a civil and respectful manner. (And some people get that point very well. The others that don't get that point end up on the wrong side of the "mod stick".)
Right, I agree with that. I think perhaps you misunderstood my point. I'm defending MR's position of allowing an open conversation and questioning the reasoning of people who are calling for less of an open conversation on these forums - I wasn't criticizing the moderation.
 
What is hate speech then. Heard about it but not seen any? ”I hate you”?
Can't tell if you're being serious here, but in case you are: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hate speech
The MacRumors Rules for Appropriate Debate classify it as...
  1. Hate speech and group slurs. We prohibit discrimination, abuse, threats or prejudice against a particular group, for example based on race, gender, religion or sexual orientation, in a way that a reasonable person would find offensive.
 
In the forums, do those rules also apply to iOS and Android users or Apple and Windows users ?

I have seen what might be construed as hate speech towards different tech groups in the technical forums and was wondering what MacRumors considers a group as far as hate speech ?

Can't see how that can be classed as hate speech. It's probably rather immature and pointless, and may still get modded under the rules for appropriate debate.

But as hate speech???? I can't see it myself.

Still, I'm just a user. I don't make rules, I simply try to follow them (and occasionally trip over them).
 
In the forums, do those rules also apply to iOS and Android users or Apple and Windows users ?

I have seen what might be construed as hate speech towards different tech groups in the technical forums and was wondering what MacRumors considers a group as far as hate speech ?
The trolling and insults rules are usually applied there.
 
Arn has stated in this thread, that the PRSI section of the forum is not really contributing to the financial income of the overall site. If that is the case, it really makes no sense to continue having the forum, especially when it continues to be a place that continues to need more and more forum hand-holding, time outs and suspensions, not to mention impugning the overall integrity this tech site.

I have been here 8 years and from what I have seen, it has been a constant thorn in forum flesh. Why continue on with the battered wife mentality?

Do away with said forum and maybe that will help raise the traffic and focus in the tech forums, which is what this place is supposed to be about. If traffic doesn’t increase in the tech areas after a PRSI shut down, what has really been achieved by the constant discord and trouble of said forum? There are plenty of political forums online for the PSRI regulars to transition to, provided they haven’t already been banned from them, which I am inclined to think a large part have, as those sites are much more liberal in moderation than MR.

What is the real purpose of continuing down this same path year after year, if money (pr the lack thereof for PRSI) isn’t an issue, Arn?

If you aren’t going to pay the mod staff for dealing with an increased workload in said forum, amongst other mod duties that take a lot of time, is it right to keep asking them to deal with the painful thorn in the flesh from a forum that isn’t contributing to financial status of the forums at large?

Time and time again the same discussion occurs here, with the powers that be having to deal with the same type fall out with nothing to really show for it, besides wasted time and varnished site reputation from said forum.

It is time to stop the madness and return this forum to its tech roots, thus reducing the workload of the non-paying mod staff, admins and others.

If you feel the compulsion to keep this negative aspect of the forum (in more ways than one), as it seems to you, then start charging a separate yearly fee to access said forum and use that money to pay your mod staff the income they deserve. If you did do that, I believe most of your PRSI regulars would not pay and many, if not most of them aren’t contributing financially to the site as it is. Either way, this problem needs to be rightfully dealt with and not just left open for thread discussion after thread discussion. As site owner, it is incumbent upon you to take action, Arn. There is no logical defense not to.
 
Whilst I'm personally very very happy I'm out of PRSI (thanks for that functionality, @arn) I am cognizant that there may be much more behind the scenes that we're unaware off.

I'm not sure if any of us have the right to expect him to blow PRSI away. This is his site and I'm sure these decisions do not happen in a vacuum.

Ultimately I'm just overjoyed we have the "hide" function. If it's hidden and you don't see it, what's the big issue?

Like I say, I'd be tickled pink if I never set paw back in that cess pit again.

That said, this isn't our website and on a subject like this I can't help feel that Arn doesn't actually owe us an explanation.
 
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My personal opinion (not speaking on behalf of the site in any way) is that having designated sections where political and social issues can be discussed is an understandable choice on a site of this size and with such a diverse membership. That way, discussions of political and social issues are kept out of other sections.

I don't think the issue here is whether or not a particular forum section should exist, because no one is forced to read a given forum section. Those who don't want to see or aren't interested in a section can hide it from view.

I disagree that it's incumbent on the site owner to take any particular action.
 
This is pretty simple: Either you support efforts to curb systemic racism or you don’t. If you willingly choose not to, that’s on you. Own it.

Either way, the question was for the moderators who asked that I post it here and various other MacRumors staff.

At least you mostly said what you mean. Unless you support BLM you are a racist. Ok....whatever....didn’t send my check so I guess you got me.
 
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Personally, I think that PRSI is a valuable addition to the forum, for it allows for, and makes space for, discussions that do not - and cannot - take place elsewhere in the forum.

Moreover, it is easily avoided for those who do not wish to avail of it.

I would also put forward the argument that it is not really possible to discuss tech and computing matters in the sort of vacuum that is devoid of - or, has been stripped of - socio-political context for a number of reasons.

Tech, and how it is used, has utterly transformed our world and our relationship with it - and I would argue that the scope and range of this transformation has been on a par with the comprehensive changes effected by a number of previous such revolutions (for example, the invention of the printing press & moveable type & the development of paper; the Industrial Revolution, and so on).

This has implications not just for control of (and ownership of) personal information, and privacy concerns, and for online lives and social media platforms, but on who - or what - should have a say in how to regulate this, and discussion of such topics are entirely fitting in a tech forum.

Moreover, some tech companies are now far wealthier, more powerful and considerably more influential than many small or mid sized economies or polities or countries (nation states?) in the world, but are not at all accountable to any of their electorates or governments.

This is an area where I would certainly foresee tensions in the future, and to exclude discussion on the power exercised by tech companies in not just the global economy, but the global reach of their political and cultural influence, on the grounds that it is "political", is to draw a distinction that may serve to suppress discussion, debate and thought on some key issues.

Re Apple itself, the company's tax polices and labour policies are matters that I would deem of equal importance to Apple's undoubted skill in the field of technological innovation.

Thus, they are (to my mind) matters that would repay deeper discussion and closer interrogation, which cannot be done unless political and social matters can be explored.

However, recent events have made this even more pressing, as, in the wake of Covid-19, some bodies (such as the EU) are re-thinking their dependency on China for the provision - for example - of pharmaceuticals and antibiotics, as they wish to reduce trade dependencies (and develop their own capacity) in areas that they consider may make them vulnerable in the future unless such steps have been taken.

There are other issues in the tech world - such Silicon Valley's treatment of, and attitude to - women, and how that has had an impact on how tech is developed - (voice control commands that do not register or recognise commands issued by most women, as the timbre of their voice lacks the necessary depth - come to mind) where the provision of such a section in the forum allows for such discussion.
 
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