Major gaming news at WWDC: Metal and New games

[GrumpyCoder]

Doesn’t match what I’ve heard elsewhere, but who knows. I certainly hope it’s not accurate.

Those Assassin’s Creed, Resident Evil and Death Stranding ports have bombed

Estimates suggest that fewer than 3,000 people have paid $49.99 to play Assassin’s Creed Mirage on iPhone. Other console ports like Resident Evil 4 and Death Stranding have flopped too.

mobilegamer.biz

Do you really think the mass market is ready to pay $50 for a game running on a phone when there's the option to play it on a desktop system or console? $20 if you're really, really lucky.

Only Nintendo can get away with it with their IP. And for Nintendo it's an initial release and not a much later release when everyone who really wanted to play it bought it for another platform already.

But there's really nothing new in that article. Remember it all started with Apple shopping around studios for show-off projects in a keynote and resulting contracts between the parties to port something over which Apple helped a lot, both financially and with man-power. That's something Apple has always done. For games, fitness, music and video production, in the medical field and so on. Parts of that article mirrors exactly what I'd said ever since the whole debate started.

Large companies like Capcom will stick to their contract and deliver what they originally agreed on (or pull out and lose a lot of money). Once that agreement is over, one of the following things will happen:

- Run and never look back
- Go with another agreement, if they benefit enough from it ("free" engine ports or game ports in general, considering what they have to throw in for such a deal)
- Use their IP to bring smaller mobile type of games with in-game purchases to cash in (and Apple already helped to move them over to the platform)

I'd bet on the last. The money is in small mobile game with in-game sales of skins, extras and other stuff. That's where the money is.

But again, nothing of this is really new.


One thing I'm really surprised about is the lack of effort for the AppleTV as a "console". I know there were plans with Capcom, at least for the Japanese market, but nothing so far. That could also be a general issue and the terrible state of the AppleTV eco-system. They really need to stick a M3 in there for games and that would probably make it so expensive, that no one would buy it given the shrinking market share, while Samsung, Amazon and Roku are thriving.

 

[Exclave]

Do you really think the mass market is ready to pay $50 for a game running on a phone when there's the option to play it on a desktop system or console? $20 if you're really, really lucky.

Only Nintendo can get away with it with their IP. And for Nintendo it's an initial release and not a much later release when everyone who really wanted to play it bought it for another platform already.

But there's really nothing new in that article. Remember it all started with Apple shopping around studios for show-off projects in a keynote and resulting contracts between the parties to port something over which Apple helped a lot, both financially and with man-power. That's something Apple has always done. For games, fitness, music and video production, in the medical field and so on. Parts of that article mirrors exactly what I'd said ever since the whole debate started.

Large companies like Capcom will stick to their contract and deliver what they originally agreed on (or pull out and lose a lot of money). Once that agreement is over, one of the following things will happen:

- Run and never look back
- Go with another agreement, if they benefit enough from it ("free" engine ports or game ports in general, considering what they have to throw in for such a deal)
- Use their IP to bring smaller mobile type of games with in-game purchases to cash in (and Apple already helped to move them over to the platform)

I'd bet on the last. The money is in small mobile game with in-game sales of skins, extras and other stuff. That's where the money is.

But again, nothing of this is really new.


One thing I'm really surprised about is the lack of effort for the AppleTV as a "console". I know there were plans with Capcom, at least for the Japanese market, but nothing so far. That could also be a general issue and the terrible state of the AppleTV eco-system. They really need to stick a M3 in there for games and that would probably make it so expensive, that no one would buy it given the shrinking market share, while Samsung, Amazon and Roku are thriving.

With all due respect I’d prefer to stick to facts rather than uninformed speculation. No offence.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

With all due respect I’d prefer to stick to facts rather than uninformed speculation. No offence.

But you really stick to a bubble of hope based on what people write who don't even work in the industry, never developed applications or games, never worked with game developers or Apple. That's the opposite of facts. But you're totally free to believe whatever you want of course and if that's what you want instead of information from people in the industry who actually know (and not speculate), then that's totally ok. It's not new either, the Apple world is a little special in the sense that filtering out facts and only accepting information one wants to hear or read. Always reminds me what rockpapershotgun summarised in the Myst review (which is a good read).

But hey, keep believing, I respect that. Oilers fans kept believing too. Too bad the Panthers walked away with the cup in the end. Maybe next year.

I'll just leave it at the point that the article by Long, with quotes from Zubov and Nelson was very well researched and written. Whether one likes or not is purely subjective in the end.

 

[Exclave]

But you really stick to a bubble of hope based on what people write who don't even work in the industry, never developed applications or games, never worked with game developers or Apple.

I’m not sure what this refers to. I stated I had heard different and that this article contradicted it. I didn’t say it was incorrect. Hence “who knows”. That’s why I’m interested in facts. Not vagueness and wisdom after the fact.

That's the opposite of facts.

What is the opposite? I posted an article and stated I didn’t know what the truth was.

But you're totally free to believe whatever you want of course and if that's what you want instead of information from people in the industry who actually know (and not speculate), then that's totally ok.

Which people?

It's not new either, the Apple world is a little special in the sense that filtering out facts and only accepting information one wants to hear or read. Always reminds me what rockpapershotgun summarised in the Myst review (which is a good read).

But hey, keep believing, I respect that. Oilers fans kept believing too. Too bad the Panthers walked away with the cup in the end. Maybe next year.

I don’t know what this refers to.

I'll just leave it at the point that the article by Long, with quotes from Zubov and Nelson was very well researched and written. Whether one likes or not is purely subjective in the end.

The one I posted? The mobile gamer one? The one with no evidence or research? That one was well researched? I think we have differing standards for research.

Only Apple and Capcom/Ubisoft etc know the real details. If you have actual evidence from them, then great. If not then please don’t take offence when I place your posts in the “wild speculation” pile. It’s not personal.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

I’m not sure what this refers to.

It refers to people working in the industry having those facts with actual sales number, which pretty much mirror what's been written in the article. Do you not think involved parties would legally come after them if those numbers would be far, far off? We have some people from that industry here, some left, some still hear reading and occasionally writing. And yet, people who are not working in the industry know it better for some reason. Again, believing and not liking facts is an individual choice.

Many companies have been approached when this started, each with individual deals. No one will post that specific contract publicly of course. But again, everyone is free to believe whatever they want.

And yes, it was very well researched. Do the sales from your company differ much? Did you talk to the people at Capcom/Ubi who have sales numbers? What did they tell you about sales outside of marketing without telling you the exact numbers? Odd enough, that's not too far off to what's in the article.

 

[Homy]

With all due respect I’d prefer to stick to facts rather than uninformed speculation. No offence.

Not even the article itself has all the facts. So games like Resident Evil 4 and Village with 710,000-817,000 downloads are flops and had only 11,570-26,266 buyers?

AC Mirage had 279,000 downloads in less than two weeks and it’s a flop and had 4,420 buyers? They compare that to 1.9 million downloads for AC Rebellion, a free mobile game that could be played on ordinary iPhones like 4-6. Of course a $50 game that can only be played on top iPhone models and iPads has fewer downloads. Give it 6 months or so like RE games before making conclusions. Is an expensive sports car a flop because only few buy it at high price? Who knows Ubisoft sales goal with such a title and strategy? Why does the writer of the article believe Mirage must sell 1.9 million copies in just two weeks to be successful?

Until somebody who actually has worked on these projects at/with Capcom, Kojima Productions, Ubisoft or Apple provides facts or insights you should take such speculations and wild guesses with a large grain of salt. Such opinions have proved time and time again to be wrong in these forums in the past. Capcom said in a press release that RE Village’s release on new devices like iPhone has increased sales but people claim to know more here than the devs themselves. Of course they also will tell you that statement is a part of "the deal" and marketing.

In the end does it even matter? Even if only one person has bought the games Apple seems to be supposedly willing to pay for more games every year. Same people have said they rather have many buggy PC games than having fewer Mac games. Then I too rather have more games sponsored by Apple than none. Isn’t that the same thing all the experts on Apple’s gaming strategy complain about all the time? That Apple should buy and pay for this and that?

You don’t have to be in the industry to spot questionable articles or opinions.

 

[Exclave]

It refers to people working in the industry having those facts with actual sales number, which pretty much mirror what's been written in the article.

Can you point me to those?

Do you not think involved parties would legally come after them if those numbers would be far, far off?

Can you point me to those?

We have some people from that industry here, some left, some still hear reading and occasionally writing.

Can you point me to those?

And yet, people who are not working in the industry know it better for some reason.

Which people? Hopefully you don’t mean me given I specifically said I don’t know.

Again, believing and not liking facts is an individual choice.

I am specifically asking for facts. I would be grateful if you could provide some. That is also a choice.

Many companies have been approached when this started, each with individual deals. No one will post that specific contract publicly of course.

I’m quite sure this is correct. Hopefully you realise the result of this is none of us can be sure currently how these games performed.

But again, everyone is free to believe whatever they want.

Of course. I believe in conclusions backed up by evidence.

And yes, it was very well researched.

Why wasn’t it in the article then?

Do the sales from your company differ much? Did you talk to the people at Capcom/Ubi who have sales numbers?

You seem confused. For the sake of clarity I will repeat:

I do not know the figures. There are conflicting reports. I am interested in data. I don’t know what you think my argument is, but it seems very distant from my actual argument.

What did they tell you about sales outside of marketing without telling you the exact numbers? Odd enough, that's not too far off to what's in the article.

What did who tell me? Where did I claim to have inside information? For the last time, I stated there is conflicting information. I had heard some information (not from “inside sources”) and I do not place any more significance to that information than I do to this garbage article. Hence…..

the request for facts.

I do not wish to argue or debate with those wishing to self-aggrandize. I am interested in facts.

 

[Exclave]

Not even the article itself has all the facts. So games like Resident Evil 4 and Village with 710,000-817,000 downloads are flops and had only 11,570-26,266 buyers?

AC Mirage had 279,000 downloads in less than two weeks and it’s a flop and had 4,420 buyers? They compare that to 1.9 million downloads for AC Rebellion, a free mobile game that could be played on ordinary iPhones like 4-6. Of course a $50 game that can only be played on top iPhone models and iPads has fewer downloads. Give it 6 months or so like RE games before making conclusions. Is an expensive sports car a flop because only few buy it at high price? Who knows Ubisoft sales goal with such a title and strategy? Why does the writer of the article believe Mirage must sell 1.9 million copies in just two weeks to be successful?

Until somebody who actually has worked on these projects at/with Capcom, Kojima Productions, Ubisoft or Apple provides facts or insights you should take such speculations and wild guesses with a large grain of salt. Such opinions have proved time and time again to be wrong in these forums in the past. Capcom said in a press release that RE Village’s release on new devices like iPhone has increased sales but people claim to know more here than the devs themselves. Of course they also will tell you that statement is a part of "the deal" and marketing.

In the end does it even matter? Even if only one person has bought the games Apple seems to be supposedly willing to pay for more games every year. Same people have said they rather have many buggy PC games than having fewer Mac games. Then I too rather have more games sponsored by Apple than none. Isn’t that the same thing all the experts on Apple’s gaming strategy complain about all the time? That Apple should buy and pay for this and that?

You don’t have to be in the industry to spot questionable articles or opinions.

The article is lacking in credible sources. No matter what is claimed.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

So maybe we should get a definition for "facts"?
What is accepted as fact around here these days? A company stating a game sold better than expected? Hardly tells anything. Expected sales: 5 copies, actual sales: 10 copies. Rising sales? First month one copy, second two copies, third three and so on? No company will release such info publicly in a press release. The best you might get is a press release for downloaded copies, which in turn doesn't tell anything about actual sales and revenue.

So what does that tell about the state of AAA game sales on mobile platforms? That there are no facts and never will be? At least available to the public and only people working in the industry have those facts.

When are leaked facts from the industry are accepted as facts for the public? Does it require a direct reference, "Mr./Mrs. x y leaked to us from a confidential business report that..."? Well, that's not going to happen. Talk behind locked doors at conferences doesn't qualify either, because it's not accessible to the public. At least the meetings happening there, not the conference in general. WWDC hat a lot of talk happening as usual. If a non industry insider would get in and write an article about it, reporting about what's been discussed, would that count? I mean, there's no proof except "I heard".

So I guess everything qualifies as uniformed speculations if it's not coming from official press releases with hard numbers and not marketing talk. But we've been through that for a couple of times in the past few years and going in circles. There will always be those who interpret things in a way that suits the best possible case. Those who do in the worst possible. Those who are directly involved or through collaboration and actually know, but can't issue an official press release for those who are not. And then it's back to speculations. 🤷‍♂️

 

[Ethosik]

Let’s also put in to perspective that the industry (some not all) are coming up with terms like quadruple A gaming. Also some (not all) are suffering from very low sales with a console available (Square ENIX for one). This infinite growth mentality will eventually reach a tipping point.

Why didn’t the company look at device sales? They probably had unrealistic expectations.

I’m writing a game right now (windows only). But if I were to put it on Mac I would expect far less sales.

 

[Exclave]

So maybe we should get a definition for "facts"?
What is accepted as fact around here these days?

I can’t answer for anyone else. For me it’s statements backed by evidence.

A company stating a game sold better than expected? Hardly tells anything.

Right it’s often marketing. Still several steps above the garbage in “mobilegamer.biz

So what does that tell about the state of AAA game sales on mobile platforms? That there are no facts and never will be?

No, there are always facts, but that doesn’t mean we know them. In lieu of those facts, we can make predictions and see how they play out. For predictions to be useful, they need to specific. It’s no good being vague and then pretending afterwards that you predicted it.

At least available to the public and only people working in the industry have those facts.

When are leaked facts from the industry are accepted as facts for the public? Does it require a direct reference, "Mr./Mrs. x y leaked to us from a confidential business report that..."? Well, that's not going to happen.

And that’s why we don’t treat speculation as facts. However, if Capcom were to keep releasing games for the Mac/iOS it would be a reasonable deduction to say that enough was being sold to make it worthwhile.

Talk behind locked doors at conferences doesn't qualify either, because it's not accessible to the public. At least the meetings happening there, not the conference in general. WWDC hat a lot of talk happening as usual. If a non industry insider would get in and write an article about it, reporting about what's been discussed, would that count? I mean, there's no proof except "I heard".

So I guess everything qualifies as uniformed speculations if it's not coming from official press releases with hard numbers and not marketing talk. But we've been through that for a couple of times in the past few years and going in circles. There will always be those who interpret things in a way that suits the best possible case. Those who do in the worst possible. Those who are directly involved or through collaboration and actually know, but can't issue an official press release for those who are not. And then it's back to speculations. 🤷‍♂️

You’re reacting to this in a weird way. It’s not personal. I’m interested in facts and you seem upset that I don’t take your word as gospel. I don’t know you and you haven’t shown me any reason to trust your speculation. That’s true of everyone here. That doesn’t mean you’re wrong. It means to me you are as yet unproven.

Feel free to make your specific predictions and time will tell how reliable you are. Try and avoid vagueness if possible.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

Let’s also put in to perspective that the industry (some not all) are coming up with terms like quadruple A gaming. Also some (not all) are suffering from very low sales with a console available (Square ENIX for one). This infinite growth mentality will eventually reach a tipping point.

Why didn’t the company look at device sales? They probably had unrealistic expectations.

I’m writing a game right now (windows only). But if I were to put it on Mac I would expect far less sales.

I think we can all agree that terms like AAA are not well defined. I'm using it as well when I really shouldn't. It just means it was expensive to make and considered a "premium" product (whatever that means).

Everyone is facing sales issues. Competition is larger than ever and despite some games doing well, the number of games sold doesn't scale with the market growth compared to 10, 20 or 30 years ago. No doubt that some games will sell like hot cakes. I bet GTA6 will be record breaking first day sales and first month and likely make production costs back with pre-orders alone. For other games prediction models and first day, week, month sales will tell us what to expect in lifetime sales until something funny happens (multiple influencers with 300M+ followers recommending it suddenly).

Companies are looking at device sales very closely, but the market and user base is shifting. So what sold well 10 years ago, might not sell too well today.

And then there's the question of who's paying for the development of a game (or any app for that matter). If that's on the company doing development it's very different than getting that money from someone else and minimise potential losses (like Apple looking for show-off projects).

When Apple approached us in the early Intel days for a show-off project on graphics and benchmark performance, there were pretty much no costs involved doing it. That's all on Apple to show how much better the Mac Pro is than the old PowerMac G5. No way that would have happened otherwise. I've had one other such show-off project in the early iPhone days before the SDK was released publicly.

And yes, the lifetime sales of a Windows game will likely be much higher than with a Mac. If you're Indie and need to get the money back with the decision of Windows or Mac and not both, then that's most likely the best choice.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

No, there are always facts, but that doesn’t mean we know them.

Well, yes of course. But outside people in the business, they're not valid then. It's a group of people who have the facts and can talk about it, because others would know they're facts. If the CEO of Capcom would show up here and post about it, there's no way to verify facts as such. It's just the internet. Unless it's a press release, a public appearance or something similar.

And that’s why we don’t treat speculation as facts. However, if Capcom were to keep releasing games for the Mac/iOS it would be a reasonable deduction to say that enough was being sold to make it worthwhile.

Maybe. Setting aside the facts discussion for a moment. There's an agreement/contract between Apple and Capcom, which includes several games. Until that's been fulfilled by both sides, there's no way to deduct if the game comes out because the previous game sold well or just because it's part of the original agreement. But that brings us back to the point where someone believes if there's such an agreement or not. No one will leak such thing to the internet though. So a reasonable deduction would be (but not necessarily), if Capcom is still around in 2028 (~5 year agreement), then the deduction could be made. Unless Apple goes for another "shopping round". Those are really not super secret, but as before only people in the industry are involved and approached. But I'm pretty sure it will leak to the public when such a large round happens next time.

You’re reacting to this in a weird way. It’s not personal.

No it isn't. Sorry if it came over as such. You don't have believe anything I write here. It's just that we (the forum community) have been over this in various threads over the years, with a large number of people banned, coming back with new accounts to rinse and repeat. I'm a little tired of it. Then you have people spinning things around to the way it fits them without any technical, developer or business knowledge at all. So whoever first said Apple is a religion is right, at least for some.

Don't get me wrong, I've been using Apple since the 1980s on and off, I've used Apple as my daily working hardware since the PPC days. But I'm also for "the right tool for the job", which means sometimes it's Windows or Linux.

If I'd start developing a new mobile game today in an established company or Indie, then iOS and Android are the right target platforms and I'd make sure to push out a new game every month until one takes off and in-game purchases go up massively. If I'd have to take $100M for a game, then Windows or console unless it's someone else throwing the money into the ring and there's no risk of loss. Heck, I'd port it to the C64 and put it on sale then.

 

[bousozoku]

Do you really think the mass market is ready to pay $50 for a game running on a phone when there's the option to play it on a desktop system or console? $20 if you're really, really lucky.

Only Nintendo can get away with it with their IP. And for Nintendo it's an initial release and not a much later release when everyone who really wanted to play it bought it for another platform already.

But there's really nothing new in that article. Remember it all started with Apple shopping around studios for show-off projects in a keynote and resulting contracts between the parties to port something over which Apple helped a lot, both financially and with man-power. That's something Apple has always done. For games, fitness, music and video production, in the medical field and so on. Parts of that article mirrors exactly what I'd said ever since the whole debate started.

Large companies like Capcom will stick to their contract and deliver what they originally agreed on (or pull out and lose a lot of money). Once that agreement is over, one of the following things will happen:

- Run and never look back
- Go with another agreement, if they benefit enough from it ("free" engine ports or game ports in general, considering what they have to throw in for such a deal)
- Use their IP to bring smaller mobile type of games with in-game purchases to cash in (and Apple already helped to move them over to the platform)

I'd bet on the last. The money is in small mobile game with in-game sales of skins, extras and other stuff. That's where the money is.

But again, nothing of this is really new.


One thing I'm really surprised about is the lack of effort for the AppleTV as a "console". I know there were plans with Capcom, at least for the Japanese market, but nothing so far. That could also be a general issue and the terrible state of the AppleTV eco-system. They really need to stick a M3 in there for games and that would probably make it so expensive, that no one would buy it given the shrinking market share, while Samsung, Amazon and Roku are thriving.

If the games I want come to Mac, I'll likely buy them. Will I want to pay US$50 or more? No, I won't want to pay that. I bought Hogwarts Legacy for half price. I bought Death Stranding Director's Cut for half price. I like my discounts.

I've spent a bit on games for iPhone or Android, but they have to be really good, engaging.

I'm hoping that the big names will be producing good games on Mac and iPhone and Apple TV for a while. I've been around computers since 1981. I've programmed loads of applications and worked on a few games. I'd been in business long enough to know that you don't normally spend money on something that doesn't send money back to you.

Others here would just be positive that there is something today. I have a Steam Deck and a Windows machine because there wasn't much over the last seven years.

I will hope.

 

[Exclave]

Well, yes of course. But outside people in the business, they're not valid then. It's a group of people who have the facts and can talk about it, because others would know they're facts. If the CEO of Capcom would show up here and post about it, there's no way to verify facts as such. It's just the internet. Unless it's a press release, a public appearance or something similar.

Maybe. Setting aside the facts discussion for a moment. There's an agreement/contract between Apple and Capcom, which includes several games.

Without knowing the number of games, or the proof that there is such a deal, it leaves people free to claim all kinds of things. That’s my issue. To believe you have the knowledge you claim, you need to specify the number of games.

Until that's been fulfilled by both sides,

The unproven deal that we have to accept as fact. Right.

there's no way to deduct if the game comes out because the previous game sold well or just because it's part of the original agreement.

Well quite. That’s why we have to be careful claiming things.

But that brings us back to the point where someone believes if there's such an agreement or not. No one will leak such thing to the internet though.

Right. The OpenAI deal leaks and yet a low priority deal like the Capcom is more secure than Fort Knox.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

If the games I want come to Mac, I'll likely buy them. Will I want to pay US$50 or more? No, I won't want to pay that. I bought Hogwarts Legacy for half price. I bought Death Stranding Director's Cut for half price. I like my discounts.

I'll buy games for the Mac as well, if the performance is the same as other platforms and if I don't already have the game for another platform. And for desktop/console games, $50 isn't much. Mobile market is a little different though.
Games like AC or RE are just not typical mobile games. Starting with game time to controls. Most people would prefer to play these on a desktop/console.

Others here would just be positive that there is something today. I have a Steam Deck and a Windows machine because there wasn't much over the last seven years.

Well, there's pretty much the same we've always had since the 80s with some fluctuation in between. Leave aside the much larger market. I remember times when we walked into stores and had excellent selection of both Mac and PC games. At least there's something, yes. It could be much better though.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

The unproven deal that we have to accept as fact. Right.

So when Apple approached many companies in the gaming industry and everyone (well, not the janitor of course) knew about it doesn't count then. Okay. I've done two such deals with Apple myself. But of course you don't need to believe that.

Right. The OpenAI deal leaks and yet a low priority deal like the Capcom is more secure than Fort Knox.

You're expecting a signed contract to show up somewhere? This is discussed at conferences without going too much into detail. Why now attend WWDC or GTC yourself and talk to the people about it? But of course you'd just talking to people there, which technically doesn't count as a fact.

One could also stick the head in the sand and claim the Earth is flat or hollow and furthermore ignore anyone or anything as proving them wrong. Moon landing is still considered by some to be fake, a non-flat Earth video, measurements, experiments done with fake data or deep fake video and so on. People who went to space are brain washed or government instruments. Some just believe whatever suits their hope. And that's ok. If you want the facts, join the industry and get your hands on the data. But many won't believe you then, because you wouldn't be able to leak such documents and if you do, maybe they're faked. If you ever decide to go to GTC or WWDC drop me a PM... but maybe, just maybe I'm not real and just an AI... or maybe you're an AI. If only we had facts about that. The truth must be out there.

Anyways, spinning in circles as this usually goes. Everyone should believe whatever they want. And those in the industry will know for sure.

 

[bousozoku]

I'll buy games for the Mac as well, if the performance is the same as other platforms and if I don't already have the game for another platform. And for desktop/console games, $50 isn't much. Mobile market is a little different though.
Games like AC or RE are just not typical mobile games. Starting with game time to controls. Most people would prefer to play these on a desktop/console.

Well, there's pretty much the same we've always had since the 80s with some fluctuation in between. Leave aside the much larger market. I remember times when we walked into stores and had excellent selection of both Mac and PC games. At least there's something, yes. It could be much better though.

I remember walking into the new Tampa, FL Apple Store and noticing that the software area was the largest area but had very little available.

I was thinking that day how I would walk into a store for the 8-bit Atari computers and there would be loads of boxes of software, mostly games, and finding hardware accessories and more. The prices were high at US$40 for a game on cassette or diskette or cartridge, but they were available and they'd always have a machine available to try them.

Back then, most anyone who had a computer was also a programmer. Most of the business people with computers went to a store for Commodore PET or Radio Shack for the TRS-80.

I haven't seen a computer store for so long.

I spent a good portion of money on the Galaxy on Fire series from the 2nd generation iPod touch forward, including Apple TV, Mac, Windows, and Android. They really knew how to get the most out of a low-powered machine.

Now, we practically have to have a controller of some kind to play many games.

 

[Exclave]

So when Apple approached many companies in the gaming industry and everyone (well, not the janitor of course) knew about it doesn't count then.

“Everyone knew”. So you’re saying everyone knew and yet not one piece of evidence ever leaked, despite that not being the case for pretty much any deal Apple does? Okay.

Okay. I've done two such deals with Apple myself. But of course you don't need to believe that.

Thanks.

You're expecting a signed contract to show up somewhere?

Oh of course not. The gaming contracts are the ones that Apple keeps super secret, while the iPhone manufacturing ones and the AI aren’t worth worrying about for them.

This is discussed at conferences without going too much into detail. Why now attend WWDC or GTC yourself and talk to the people about it? But of course you'd just talking to people there, which technically doesn't count as a fact.

Understood. It’s a fact everyone knows. It’s discussed within the attendees at big conferences and yet never leaks out in any way. Makes sense.

One could also stick the head in the sand and claim the Earth is flat or hollow and furthermore ignore anyone or anything as proving them wrong. Moon landing is still considered by some to be fake, a non-flat Earth video, measurements, experiments done with fake data or deep fake video and so on. People who went to space are brain washed or government instruments. Some just believe whatever suits their hope. And that's ok. If you want the facts, join the industry and get your hands on the data. But many won't believe you then, because you wouldn't be able to leak such documents and if you do, maybe they're faked. If you ever decide to go to GTC or WWDC drop me a PM... but maybe, just maybe I'm not real and just an AI... or maybe you're an AI. If only we had facts about that. The truth must be out there.

Great analogy…except those things are verifiable by multiple people, our lived experience and…you know…actual factual evidence. Totally like the super secret deals everyone knows about and yet no one reports in the press.

Anyways, spinning in circles as this usually goes. Everyone should believe whatever they want. And those in the industry will know for sure.

Maybe one day someone from the industry will grace us with their presence. Hopefully they won’t be so needy and desperate for acceptance.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

I was thinking that day how I would walk into a store for the 8-bit Atari computers and there would be loads of boxes of software, mostly games, and finding hardware accessories and more. The prices were high at US$40 for a game on cassette or diskette or cartridge, but they were available and they'd always have a machine available to try them.

Good old days. Back then stores were small and filled with “geeks”. Hardware and software for all sorts of systems. People playing games in the stores! Nintendo and Sega still did that with their gaming stations running games on Genesis and SNES. Very fond memories of that time. My favorite times were still, walking into stores and choosing between the same game for several platforms. They even had different versions for EGA and VGA. Star Trek was such a game, where some of us had the Mac version and others the DOS version. Of course, like today, the Mac version came out later. I guess most here are just too young to remember it, hence the excitement of games coming to the Mac. We already had that decades ago.

And yes on the programming. That’s how I learned it and started to create games. When analog modems were more common we started using CompuServe and I became a SysOp there moderating forums (unpaid). But due to the small market back then, people from large gaming companies came in and we were in geek heaven. Free games every now and then too and some of us even got job offers. Bit the highlight for me will always be the Commodore/Atari and early DOS/Mac days and the small stores selling hardware and software.

Understood. It’s a fact everyone knows. It’s discussed within the attendees at big conferences and yet never leaks out in any way. Makes sense.

Oh my, the first google hit with a simple search mentions an Apple/Capcom deal. https://www.androidpolice.com/capcoms-cooperation-apple-googles-gaming-failings/
Better not look further or even better, the good Apple sheep we are, stick the head in the sand and claim it never happened.

Great analogy…except those things are verifiable by multiple people, our lived experience and…you know…actual factual evidence.

Oh, but you are aware those people are all brainwashed, controlled by the government, do not exist, are an AI, controlled by 5G or chips in vaccines, right? So no facts. It’s a conspiracy. Maybe a mass delusion. Speaking of conspiracies… maybe that article you linked to is wrong after all… maybe those numbers are way too high. Maybe only 10 copies of each game sold. Too bad we don’t have facts. Maybe those games flopped even worse than they expected.

Maybe one day someone from the industry will grace us with their presence. Hopefully they won’t be so needy and desperate for acceptance.

Oh don’t worry, they’re already here. But so are the people sticking their head in the sand only accepting “facts” that suit their narrative. But that’s not new either.

So I guess we completed this rinse and repeat cycle and will do the same the next time someone joins or someone is banned and comes back with a new account. 🤷‍♂️

 

[Exclave]

Oh my, the first google hit with a simple search mentions an Apple/Capcom deal. https://www.androidpolice.com/capcoms-cooperation-apple-googles-gaming-failings/
Better not look further or even better, the good Apple sheep we are, stick the head in the sand and claim it never happened.

I am beginning to understand why you think mobilgamer.biz is a reliable source now. An article with a single mention of the word “deal“ in passing, with no evidence.

Once again you seem more interested in proving you‘re an authority than engaging with my actual words. I’ll spell it out for you another time: there may or may not be a deal of the sort you claim. You haven't shown any proof. No this article isn’t that. It also doesn’t seem they are even using the word “deal” in the way you are. They imply a contract for the specific games they mention. You imply (partly the problem. You talk in vague terms without specifying much as a way of giving wiggle room when things go wrong) about an ongoing deal for multiple games. This allows you to detract any credit as more games come out. You can say “sales were poor, but they are in a contract”, rather than the more likely event that they agree on a game by game basis and see how it goes.

Once again. I am not saying that is happening. I am saying none of us here know and no evidence is out there.

Oh, but you are aware those people are all brainwashed, controlled by the government, do not exist, are an AI, controlled by 5G or chips in vaccines, right? So no facts. It’s a conspiracy. Maybe a mass delusion. Speaking of conspiracies… maybe that article you linked to is wrong after all… maybe those numbers are way too high. Maybe only 10 copies of each game sold. Too bad we don’t have facts. Maybe those games flopped even worse than they expected.

No idea what this is supposed to mean.

Oh don’t worry, they’re already here.

Defintely.

But so are the people sticking their head in the sand only accepting “facts” that suit their narrative. But that’s not new either.

TIL not accepting the views of unknown forum posters as absolute truth is “sticking their head in the sand”.

So I guess we completed this rinse and repeat cycle and will do the same the next time someone joins or someone is banned and comes back with a new account. 🤷‍♂️

Is this an accusation? Or are you the one repeating things?

Im also not sure why you think denying a deal would be evidence of being an Apple sheep. That makes no sense. I would love there to be proof of a deal it would mean Apple actually has an appreciable interest in gaming. As opposed to what they seem to have right now: very little interest.

As it is this is a waste of time. It derails the more meaningful discussion taking place before this. Feel free to have the last word if it makes you feel important.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

Once again. I am not saying that is happening. I am saying none of us here know and no evidence is out there.

You can only make that statement for yourself, not others.

 

[dmr727]

My favorite times were still, walking into stores and choosing between the same game for several platforms. They even had different versions for EGA and VGA.

A well crafted EGA title was peak 80s gaming, IMO. Absolutely loved that era, even more than the early VGA efforts.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

A well crafted EGA title was peak 80s gaming, IMO. Absolutely loved that era, even more than the early VGA efforts.

All I can say is "Sierra" and maybe "Lucasfilm Games". Those were the adventure days. And we had (most?) games for AppleII/Mac as well. I think it was 1991 when I walked into the store to pick up my copy of Space Quest IV, which was one of those games that came as a EGA or VGA version (Mac version came out a year or so later). Plus games came in huge boxes, with booklets. Those were always nice to have. Still have some somewhere in the attic.

And it was so easy to make games back then. Not an army of people working on animations, art, music, sound effects, storylines, a ton of graphic features/shaders. Five guys, some snacks and drinks is all it took. Good times, really good times.

 

[Homy]

It’s no good being vague and then pretending afterwards that you predicted it.

Maybe one day someone from the industry will grace us with their presence.

History repeats itself. We’ve been graced by the presence of industry people in this forum for quite some time now but it’s always certain individuals who seem to need to remind others of their presence in discussions. Most are humble and here to help but occasionally a few act as ”The One Above All” in Macrumor’s Multiverse of Madness.

It’s quite telling when people repeatedly have to bring up their profession in order to validate their arguments instead of working on better reasoning. When official industry representatives share information we’re told it means nothing, can mean the opposite, be heavily exaggerated and shouldn’t be trusted but when anonymous users tell us their opinions it should apparently be considered as unquestionable truth and facts.

It’s also quite convenient to discard criticism and discredit other people by labeling them as previously banned users disguised as new members. Interestingly enough this seems to occur every time new members unaware of the situation join a discussion with opposing arguments in different threads challenging the ”industry” people. The scare tactic is ”Don’t question me! I’m an authority. If you do you’ll be reported and banned.” So you’re right about them being the ones actually repeating themselves.

One example of changing the narrative to be able to claim predictions afterward is the discussion about the ”deal” between Capcom and Apple. We’ve been told that the deal includes several games. That’s not surprising now that several games already been announced and released, even though it’s still unofficial, but some ”industry” people claim they’ve known about it the whole time.

Back in Jan 2023 after the release of RE Village when Capcom was about to release RE 4 in March we were told that Capcom wasn’t happy about the keyboard/mouse issues in Village and taking the blame for Apple’s ”fault”. Their collaboration was a ”laughing stock” of the industry. They would be missing sales if RE 4 wasn’t a day-and-date release on Mac and the silence about a Mac release was deafening. Back then there was no knowledge of a RE 4 deal.

In Feb we were told ”still no word on a Mac version, which is puzzling. Missed opportunity Apple.”, but still no body claimed any knowledge of a RE 4 deal between Apple and Capcom.

In March we were told about Capcom Spotlight broadcast as an opportunity for Capcom and Apple to show their commitment to gaming and pulling a ”surprise” announcement. Again still no word on a deal, only hopeful wishes.

Then after the PC release we were told ”After the RE Village deal between Apple and Capcom many expected it to last. No RE4 remake for macOS... congratulations Apple, you pissed off Capcom and completely blew it... If memory serves right, Apple wanted to be serious about gaming... From a marketing point of view, it's stupid to miss out on this as a day and date release and now probably at all.”

So back then the talk wasn’t about a deal with several games. It was about RE 4 not coming to Mac at all, the deal not lasting and Apple ”blowing It” by ”pissing Capcom off”. Somebody else also wrote ”If Mac was an important market for Capcom then they probably would have at the very least announced a Mac port of RE4 being in the pipeline.” The RE Village release was a one-and-done ”deal”.

Then in April we were told by the same people that the Village deal was all about marketing ”as a show case for WWDC”. RE 4 was already running on Mac but the relationship between the two companies was still bad after Village, hence no RE 4 deal.

Then suddenly in May 2023 we were told that Capcom had a premium deal with Apple after all but ”it didn't turn out as expected”. They would deliver what they already had agreed on though. So from having no deal, pissing off Capcom, blowing it and RE 4 probably not getting released at all to already having a premium deal for two games. We were also told that ”the sales window is largely gone now” and that the sales numbers ”are not enough to support bringing games (and maintenance/support) to the Mac long term. Capcom delivered and will continue to deliver what they originally agreed on, they won't however take a new deal or commit beyond that outside of mobile.”

So after Village and RE 4 there wouldn’t be any other deals with Capcom with new games like Re 7 and 2, but just 12 days later again when Mark Gurman reported that Hideo Kojima had been spotted at Apple Campus people again stated the obvious and said they knew that Apple had been on a shopping spree again. Still no word on other Capcom games though.

Time flew, Capcom announced RE 4 in Nov with release in Dec. It became quite and there was no word on other Capcom deals and games. Fast-forward to now Capcom suddenly announced two more RE games for Mac and people again state the obvious and claim Apple and Capcom have a deal with several games, despite we were told there wouldn’t be any new deals after RE 4. So you’re right about vague predictions. People just present the obvious as insider info and after making vague predictions they say ”I told you so!”.

And people wonder why others have problems with taking them seriously. You can be sure that even if Capcom released its entire game library on Mac it would be just because they have a ”deal” and not thanks to good sales because according to media the games have all bombed.