Marco Arment Argues the 2012—2015 MacBook Pro is 'Best Laptop That Has Ever Existed'

[FriendlyMackle]

Every time? Every time what happens?

I would argue that most bits of an iMac age* at a similar rate. I know this is roughly true for my son's 2010 iMac, which only just died (after having been given another lease of life for the past two years via an SSD transplant). I can assure you that neither he nor me would even remotely consider reusing that display...

* in terms of being due for an upgrade, not their technical lifespan, which can be very different

Would that be because of the dust/dirt streaks made by the fans underneath the display glass? This has happened on my last two iMacs, each time within the first year. One of my pet oeeves regarding these machines. I’m not going to perform a difficult disassembly so that I can temporarily fix a problem which I should never have encountered. That is, if these machines had been properly designed. It has been close to a decade with the same problem.

 

[bobob]

FTR, the PowerBook Duo 230 is the best laptop that has ever existed.

Never since, have I been as pleased with one of Apple's amazing advances in laptop thinness and judicious pruning of onboard ports. The Powerbook Duo 230 was easily the sexiest Mac of the early 90's, especially when it was enhanced into a full desktop with its accompanying Duo Doc (if you could afford it). It remains a surprisingly early harbinger of all that was to come two decades later in the age of ultrabooks.

At the time of its release in October 1992 -- the Duo 230 was a revelation!

 

[makinao]

I have a 2012 non-retina MBP15. When I"m at my workstation, I have three HDs, a mouse, an audio interface, and a piano-type keyboard. There's no way all of them will fit into the two USB 3.0 A sockets, so i use a USB 3 hub (which I wish could be faster). If I had a 2017 MBP, I'd just get a USB-C hub that could allow me to connect all my peripherals. Also, fast USB-C ports would be cool.

 

[turbineseaplane]

I have a 2012 non-retina MBP15. When I"m at my workstation, I have three HDs, a mouse, an audio interface, and a piano-type keyboard. There's no way all of them will fit into the two USB 3.0 A sockets, so i use a USB 3 hub (which I wish could be faster). If I had a 2017 MBP, I'd just get a USB-C hub that could allow me to connect all my peripherals. Also, fast USB-C ports would be cool.

What is done with a laptop that is docked is a completely different argument versus what ports should be built in and thus be easily and reliably usable on the go with no additional adapters.

Also, be careful what you ask for with all that stuff plugged into a USB-C hub, especially an audio interface

 

[bartvk]

One is that only real downside is the outlay for a USB-C hub. The other is what Apple could have done differently without really compromising the migration to USB-C or the cost or space limitations of the 12" MB. Which is to add a second USB-C port.

Well, at this moment there is no satisfying Marco when it comes to the recent MacBooks. He sold his 12" if I can remember correctly.

That said, it's true that the 12" MacBook would soooo benefit from a second port, especially when placed at the other side. Now I could accept that if they gave us a good USB-C hub, but that hasn't happened. The USB-C Digital AV Multiport Adapter has consistently bad reviews, and they haven't "blessed" a third-party USB-C hub (from Belkin or some other brand) by offering it online or in the stores.

 

[davidmartindale]

IMO the 2006-2008 MacBook Pros were the best for their time.

 

[qawes]

Those retinas truly are. These new ones come with GPU issues straight out from the box, and the ones before them after 1-2 years of usage.

I can't even plug in a God forsaken Universal Audio interface in these new eye-candy toys.

 

[SteveW928]

Marco is quite right on this one.

I was set to buy a new MBP, but this new one is kind of a no-go. Now, I just have to decide if I should buy a 2015 and not have TB3... or wait for the new Mac Pro + laptop combo... or wait for the new Mini + eGPU + laptop combo, etc.

Or... maybe it's time to just leave the Mac platform? That's a huge undertaking, though... and the grass isn't necessarily greener. But, it would open up hardware options, for sure. Come on Apple, get your act together!

 

[turbineseaplane]

buy a 2015 and not have TB3...

Do you have specific uses for TB3's extra bandwidth over TB2?

If not, it's a complete no brainier to just buy a 2015, be super happy and revisit the MBP line down the road to see what's on offer.

They are phenomenal machines with a polish, sturdiness and overall product evolution that you can just "feel".

 

[iPhone_X]

The problem there is that for most workloads, performance doesn’t improve just because more cores are available. A lot of applications programs won’t benefit past two cores, there’s just not enough concurrency or parallelism to take advantage of having many available cores. (Servers are a different story, and if you’re into server virtualization you can’t get enough cores.)

There are some things where having a lot of cores scales well, like video encoding for example. But for the large majority of what most people do, there’s not a lot of benefit to adding cores, past maybe 4-8.

And the cores you do have, you want the most work done per clock cycle, and you get that more with Intel/CISC than you do with ARM/RISC.

btw, in no way do I mean to minimize the accomplishments of Apple’s CPU/SoC development team, they’re doing incredible work and the A11 is amazing. But when people talk about Geekbench scores and Apple replacing Intel chips in MacBook Pro or iMac—it’s just an Apples to oranges comparison (no pun intended).

But it seems the A11 is roughly comparable to the 4.5W CPU in the 12” MacBook; there your looking at similar power dissipation numbers. I’m sure the A11 could beat the Intel chip in tasks that take advantage of its strengths, esp. if it had sufficient cooling to avoid thermal throttling.

Good points, but I remember people saying the same thing when single core CPUs were common, and that most users won't see benefits beyond 1-2 cores max. But the market adapted. Couldn't you have browsers where each tab has access to it's own core? Or each four tabs? I read something about Firefox Quantum now using four processes to run all the tabs instead of one. Is that the same sort of idea?

Developers will just need to take advantage of it. Or not? Wasn't that a big point behind Grand Central Dispatch in 10.6 to take the complexity of multi-core development out of the hands of developers and make it easier to implement? Then you can run a lot more software at the same time without the system slowing down. Would that not be beneficial to mega-multitaskers who often buy these "pro" Macs? That's why I think we will probably see it in a "pro" level machine first, along with the video stuff that you mentioned. I could even see them shipping Intel Mac Pros that have a bank of A-series co-processors that it can send data to get crunched—or would that be duplicating the functionality of Open CL on the GPU? I just get the sense that the future is all about more cores and IDK if Intel can keep up that kind of scaling at a reasonable thermal/power consumption level.

 

[tipoo]

He’s an idiot...I’ve listened to their ATP podcast and it’s just non-stop complaining.

Sure, some people don’t like the new MacBook Pro models for various reasons and that’s fine. My advise would be, move on. Either buy a $1700-2000 computer or not. Feel lucky you have the ability to do so. We’re living in the greatest era in humankind and he’s complaining about a keyboard, ports and minutiae.

In fairness, if I spent that (more like 3K, but that's the CADs fault) on a new rMBP and the keyboard was jamming with dust in the early weeks, I'd be alarmed too. My 2014 15" rMBPs keyboard hasn't had such failures for its whole life, so what will the 2016 and 2017 models be like by 2020 if they're jamming now, and it takes replacing the whole top case for almost a grand to fix it rather than just popping off the key caps (which can break them now)?

 

[srminton]

Love my 2015, with one exception: I’ve had a constant problem with the paint on the keys rubbing off. I keep my fingernails trimmed, so I don’t know what the cause is.

Oh — and the screen delamination issue. But Apple will replace that — if you can give up your computer for a week.

I do wish Apple would make another 17” MacBook Pro. Would really be helpful for us developers.

This drives me nuts as well - the paint on the keys constantly rubbing off. My keyboard is a wreck now (2012 MBPr), but it didn't just start to happen recently - some of the keys were 'smudged' within 2 years.

 

[Brammy]

What is interesting about all of this is when you follow the thread one the two years of Marco's laptops:

1. He buys the 12" MacBook One/Adorable in May 2015. Decides it doesn't work for him. Fair enough, it's underpowered for what he needs, but I can see taking a flyer on the small form factor.
2. He then buys he 2016 fully specced 15". Doesn't like it. I forget if he flat up returns it, or hangs onto it long enough that he sells it at a loss. Again, far enough. The keyboard is the same, but maybe he'd get used to it.
3. Uses the money to buy the 13" non-Touchbar MBP for ... reasons I never got or understood other than his hatred of the Touch Bar and love of the ESC key. Tries to record a live ATP with this setup and is shocked.. SHOCKED to figure out on-site that not being able to charge his device, and have two inputs is a problem. You can complain a lot about Marco, but he does understand how live audio and streaming works. How he got completely bit in the ass by the this is anyone's guess.
4. His solution to this problem is to buy a 2017 15" MacBook Pro because maybe the keyboard is better enough. I think the odds of him being happy with the keyboard are slim, but at least after working on it at the beach house* all summer, is shocked, SHOCKED to find out he still doesn't like it.
5. Buys the 15" 2015 MacBook Pro. Proclaims his undying love for it.
6. [EDIT] Reading that article again. there is a 6th laptop: he bought a 2015 MBP after the MacBook One

I just want to say that an amazing way to go about solving the problem. There's 5 laptop purchases purchases from May 2015 to October 2017. Four of them are basically the same laptop (two 2015 15s, and a 2016/7 15).

Now, he's got a point. I do think with the 2015 form-factor Apple hit one out of the park. You need dongles for things, but you could also use the SD slot, plug it into an HDMI monitor without dongles. I have a 2016 15" and I'm not thrilled with the keyboard. I don't mind the travel, but it is a noisy keyboard. Like Casey on ATP complained about, I had a crumb or something stuck under the right Command key that impeded its use. I don't mind connecting dongles to cables in my house. I figure if it's a cable, what's another inch or two for an adapter. Having to keep an HDMI and VGA dongle in my bag to hook into the projectors at work. All of our Lenovo laptops now use Mini DisplayPort, and we standardized our conference rooms around them.

That said about the keyboard, when I use the older MacBook Air keyboards it feels way to squishy now.

But, I think the plusses to the 2016/17 MBPs weigh out. I don't miss MagSafe (at least until the time I'd almost have it fly off the table. At that point look for the obligatory "why did they get rid of MagSafe post from me.) I like that I can charge from either side of the laptop. At home my surge strip is on the left; at work on the right. No biggie at all. I like the 4 ports are the same. If I really too for some reason I can plug 4 USB drives. I've had 3 going at once.

I would rather have my 2016 than the 2015.

As for ATP, I like the show. I think the personalities work well, and I kinda get a kick out of John correcting Marco about how things work in Corporate IT, and having a corporate job.

* Not being sarcastic or bagging on him. I don't know if he owns the place, did a long-term rental or what. If I had his money, I'd summer on the darn beach as well.

 

[philip_t]

[QUOTE="

Granted, they could have just replaced TB2 with TB3 on the 2015 chassis and we could have enjoyed the same benefits with no drawbacks, but hey, this is Apple."

[/QUOTE]
Correction, this is modern Apple ..and it is fast p***ing off a significant proportion of its professional user base. Three words Apple: Asus Zenbook Pro - go look, emulate, restore some reason to your Pro monicker.

 

[bartvk]

but he does understand how live audio and streaming works. How he got completely bit in the ass by the this is anyone's guess.

Yup. That particular complaint is frankly ridiculous. Casey asked him, why didn't you buy one of those USB-C hubs in advance? He answered that he looked on Amazon, but couldn't find one with enough positive reviews!

If I had his money, I'd summer on the darn beach as well.

The same stuff goes here. He puts a giant 5K monitor in the beach house, but complains about the keyboard. When it would've cost almost nothing to simply attach an external keyboard to the 5K monitor.

I love the show, but Marco is very negative about how the Mac is faring under Tim Cook. Now there sure are things to complain about, but this is completely not helpful anymore.

 

[Since1987]

So much whitewashing of history. People were making the same complaints about the 2012 that they are about the 2016: "Where's my I/O? I don't need a thinner laptop. The keyboard's shallower! Why'd they change the power port?"

Yeah... exactly the same

Big difference between changing MagSafe and REMOVING MagSafe ( one of Apple's all time great inventions. )
Big difference between a keyboard that feels slightly different, and keyboard that STOPS working.

My boss just had to buy a new laptop, we was universally advised to avoid the 2016 model. I have never seen a successful company blame it's customers for product shortcomings... and have much of a future. But the cult of apologists who believe Apple never makes a mistake will keep them rocketing down the road to ruin. Jobs would have fired the person who suggested removing MagSafe in a nanosecond. ( this means YOU Sir Ive )

When your best products were made long in the past?.... "Ship Be Sinkin' !!"

 

[dotnet]

Big difference between changing MagSafe and REMOVING MagSafe ( one of Apple's all time great inventions. )
Big difference between a keyboard that feels slightly different, and keyboard that STOPS working.

[blah, blah]

When your best products were made long in the past?.... "Ship Be Sinkin' !!"

Big difference between "current products are still not perfect" and "they don't make anything good anymore".

 

[Brammy]

When it would've cost almost nothing to simply attach an external keyboard to the 5K monitor.

He likes the ergo sculpt keyboard too. After thinking about it I'm not sure why he just didn't throw the iMac in the car on a trip down. I don't think you need a ferry to get to Fire Island, but I'm not sure. It is enough of a pain in the ass though to move it where I can see a laptop and a monitor might be a good fit for a remote work gig.

Twice he has also mentioned thinking about going MacBook Pro only (once when he got the 2011 MacBook Pro, and this summer when his iMac was acting up. Neither obviously worked out well for him.

 

[bartvk]

He likes the ergo sculpt keyboard too.

Yeah, it's a very good keyboard in my opinion. I hope he will do a new keyboard review in the future, but he seems to dig podcasting much more than blogging nowadays.

Twice he has also mentioned thinking about going MacBook Pro only (once when he got the 2011 MacBook Pro, and this summer when his iMac was acting up. Neither obviously worked out well for him.

I have the idea he simply likes trying out things. He also had the 2013 Mac Pro when it came out, and quickly moved to the 5K iMac when it became available.

As for temporarily moving that iMac, I don't think he wants that, because it would deprive him of the chance to buy something new

Personally, I'm quite happy with my 2016 MBP, easily the most powerful laptop I've ever owned. I just hook it up to an external monitor, keyboard and mouse (via an USB-C hub) and voilà, done. I have copied that setup at my current client, where I work half of the week.

 

[recoil80]

I think it is hard to pick "the best laptop ever" without being subjective.
And in my opinion you have to put things in context, of course a 2017 laptop is faster than a one you could buy 10 or 20 years before, so it would be fair to name the best laptop of a certain period of time, let's say every 3/4 years.

To me the best one ever was the 2009 unibody Macbook Pro, since it was the last one with upgradable RAM and HDD. Great machine, my mother in law still uses it after 8 years and since I was able to add a faster disk and more RAM it is still a good machine, especially if you don't have to use the CPU that much.

But getting to what Marco said, I think he's defining the best laptop of current era, so I'd say from 2014 up to this year. If we talk about Mac it means he's comparing 2015 rMBP with rMBP with touch bar. He makes some compelling arguments, and I think he is right about the lack of versatility of the new MBP. I agree with him when he says Apple should have replaced the thunderbolt 2 ports with USB-C, keeping some USB-A and HDMI around. USB-C is clearly the future, but you need to use your laptop today, so having some future proof ports alongside "legacy" ones would have been the best choice. And the keyboard is different, for some users it is better, for others is worse. The point is many people had problems and had if fixed, so it isn't really great as you'd expect from such an expensive machine.

Having said that, I bought the 2016 15'' model and I love it. I found a really good deal (about $900 discount on a brand new 2016 model last month) so it was less expensive than buying a brand new 2015 model. But I have different needs, I only seldom need to use more than two ports and a couple of inexpensive USB-A -> USB-C adapter are all I needed to buy. The new keyboard is different, I can't yet say whether is better or worse. I work with an iMac at office so I have the external Apple keyboard that is worlds apart the one I have on my laptop, so it is harder for me to get used to the new keyboard. I have to say I was skeptical, but I found out I can make better scores with the new MBP when I take online typing speed tests and as I said I don't use that keyboard all the time so I guess I'd be even faster if that was my daily driver.

 

[Brammy]

As for temporarily moving that iMac, I don't think he wants that, because it would deprive him of the chance to buy something new

Plus, I think at the time he wasn't happy with the image retention on his iMac and thought that by having a laptop+retina monitor he could mitigate the effects if something goes wrong.

And being able to throw money at the problem.

 

[dingclancy23]

The best laptop that has ever existed is the MacBook Air 2013.

 

[davidoloan]

Not sure why this guy gets such mad respect. Irrespective of Tumblr, I don't consider him the rock star the other Apple pundits do. Overcast and and that other read it later app are average.

Bottom line: he's a deuche

What don't you like about Overcast?

I think its my favourite and most used app. I haven't liked the other podcasts apps much. Apple's was beyond usable. The iPlayer radio app is getting very good, but thats BBC only.

I've had problems:

1) Syncing between iPhone and iPad was not good so I stopped using the iPad
2) There has been a recent problem with some podcasts not updating lately e.g. Jim Dalrymple and Chuck Joiner's, but that was solved immediately after Chuck Joiner spoke about it.
3) The Mac app is basic but still functional, but he's open about it just being an add on.

I don't use the Watch, but there have been some problems there, but those are for understandable technical reasons.

But what app doesn't have a few issues over time. Overall its great and nicely designed. His payment options are good.

His blog is always thoughtful and considered. In general he seems like a good guy.

I think they are all good, and while Marco and John complain, it comes from positive enthusiasm. I don't always agree; I don't like the way they take the piss out of Jony Ive, but they have a lot of valuable insight, and its entertaining.

The only thing I don't like is their car stuff. As a petrolhead I find listening to them excruciating, except for John, but he needs to just buy something fun and get his hands dirty, even its not the newest Ferrari he desires. He reads a lot, but I think he needs to do something like build a Caterham in his garage, or get an old Ducati.

 

[bartvk]

The best laptop that has ever existed is the MacBook Air 2013.

Awww yeah, that thing was SERIOUSLY reliable. Powerwise, the MacBook Pro easily bests it of course. But man, that thing was a workhorse for me. I earned my money with it as a freelancer, and sold it for decent money as well.

 

[davidoloan]

Good lord, this is pointless. Who really cares what a random dev/blogger thinks?

He has 106,000 followers on Twitter. Accidental Tech Podcast has 22,000 so it probably has a listenership of at least 40,000, maybe a lot more.