Mavericks is the worst, most buggy OS Apple has ever released.

[yjchua95]

I wouldn't say Mavericks is the worst OS Apple has ever made.

I'd say that award goes to Lion.

On the other hand, Snow Leopard was Apple's XP and Mountain Lion was Apple's 7.

 

[Altemose]

I wouldn't say Mavericks is the worst OS Apple has ever made.

I'd say that award goes to Lion.

On the other hand, Snow Leopard was Apple's XP and Mountain Lion was Apple's 7.

Surprisingly, I never had many issues with Lion. Granted, I was using it on school computers that I helped manage. However, we don't believe in upgrades (Windows is the gift that just keeps on giving) so maybe that played a difference.

Originally, I had qualms with Lion's new "features" like the inability to stop the auto-reopening of apps on startup. That was added in 10.7.2 I believe. I also had bad memory issues in 10.7.1 but it was still pretty usable. By the time we got to 10.7.5 it was pretty solid!

Unlike Microsoft which took hundreds of updates, two "service packs", and a handful of security fixes on Windows Vista, Apple got it right in under a year. In fact, Mountain Lion is a supplemental update on Lion for additional performance gains.

 

[Gochugogi]

I vote for Lion as the worse OS update: trouble every week with crashes, corruptions and auto save hassles. I installed Mavericks last October it has been very stable from the getgo. 10.9 had strange Mail server connection problems and FW sleep was a mess but overall it was fairly glitch-free. Unlike Lion, I could always get my work done. With 10.9.2 I must say it's 98% OS Nirvana: mail problems nixed, 100% stable and FW drives will sleep if manually invoked. Heck even vintage apps like Quicken 2007, Bias Peak Pro and CS5.5 work perfectly!

 

[Felasco]

The sane (?) approach is to try it out booting it from an external drive, checking all your applications and then deciding.

This is great advice, and just what I did when I tried Mavericks. Although I did waste a couple of days checking it out, I didn't have a calamity as I was able to easily get back to Snow Leopard, and am grateful for that.

Frankly, OS X as well as most all software products are complicated enough that one would have to wait forever for a "bug free" release.

Well, if you've read many of my posts, you'll see I'm arguing for a "think different" approach to quality control and the customer experience.

I propose Apple can and sooner or later will bring the same relentlessly intelligent creativity to quality control and the customer experience that it brings to design, technology, marketing etc.

The contribution we can make to help along such a development is to respectfully and consistently challenge what has become a complacent stagnant status quo mindset by both Apple and it's users in regards to quality control and the customer experience.

So, to address your point, let's try to think different together...

First, what is the goal? That's simple, Apple wishes to be the quality alternative in the computer device marketplace, and we want that too.

To that end, I suggest that all the other computer makers continue to keep shipping half broken stuff out the door as fast as they can, while Apple positions itself as the one company that takes it's time and does it right, the first time.

Yes, additional testing of products would take more time. Or perhaps more staff. Or perhaps both.

So maybe we'd be seeing the release of Snow Leopard right now instead of Mavericks. So be it. Life will go on. All most people use their computers for is email and the web, which works just fine on Snow Leopard.

All the computer makers can breathlessly offer new fancy razzle dazzle features etc etc. But none of them can offer the next generation of peace of mind, joyful purchasing, and a near end to the lemon lottery.

If anybody can bring on that next generation of customer satisfaction it's Apple, but to get there we're all going to have to get off our complacent butts, raise our standards, and think different.

It begins with the end of rationalizing the status quo.

 

[talmy]

I propose Apple can and sooner or later will bring the same relentlessly intelligent creativity to quality control and the customer experience that it brings to design, technology, marketing etc.

Nice thought, but I look at it this way. The juggernaut IBM in the 1960s couldn't deliver bug-free operating systems even with their huge investment in software research and best-of-the-best programmers. I'd guess that OS X is perhaps 1000-10,000 times larger and I know that programmers are not 1000 times smarter!

 

[ABC5S]

Why, oh WHY? Did all the people designing the OS in Apple get lobotomized? What in god's name has happened to this once excellent company?

This OS is so buggy that Mail and Safari -- kind of important for a computer, that "getting email" and "using the internet" stuff -- simply do not work. Safari hangs everytime I try to input text in a text input window (e.g., signing into a site). Mail does not retrieve Mail. One suggested solution is to delete your accounts and then re-add them. Great -- but Mail has inexplicably moved its Accounts listing out of the application and into Software Preferences where it hangs every time I try to access it.

There are so many problems with this OS (look at so many of the threads here; e.g., https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1668874/).

I mourn the loss of a once great company -- no company with any regard for its products would foist this buggy, useless piece of junk on its customers.

(And don't get me started on Siri. If it's in beta, don't release it to consumers. Make it work. Then release it. Common sense, right?)

Not for me. Must be something you did to your system, or download, or kept some old apps that is doing this.

 

[Felasco]

Nice thought, but I look at it this way. The juggernaut IBM in the 1960s couldn't deliver bug-free operating systems even with their huge investment in software research and best-of-the-best programmers. I'd guess that OS X is perhaps 1000-10,000 times larger and I know that programmers are not 1000 times smarter!

Thanks for your reply.

As you've perhaps seen, it's my goal on this subject to respectfully decline all rationalizations of a stagnant status quo. And so I shall proceed in that direction yet again....

Imagine for a moment if you would that Apple products stopped improving. What if the devices they were selling 3 years from now were no different or any better than the devices they are selling today. Everybody would freak out, right? Digital pundits would be predicting the imminent end of Apple and all of that, yes?

So why do we complacently accept the same level of quality control, and the same type of customer experience, year after year after year? Where's the "think different" that Apple is always urging us to do?

The answer to your challenge is very simple.

Apple already knows how to remove many bugs from products before they are released, and all they need to do to improve that ratio is more of the same. 100% bug free is perhaps a bridge too far in the real world, but far fewer bugs is not.

Those who have a 1,000 reasons why none of this could ever possibly happen need to explain to us why it's reasonable for Apple to shift the cost of quality control on to the people who buy it's products.

Here's another example...

When you buy a new Mac in the Apple Store, what percent of the purchase price are you expected to give to the sales clerk? 99% won't do, will it? When it comes to your job in this relationship, Apple expects you to do 100% of your job, and a penny less isn't good enough, right? Apple doesn't accept a lot of excuses and rationalizations from us, do they?

All this will become a lot easier once Mac users start shifting the focus of their considerable intelligence away from rationalizing the status quo, and towards thinking differently about quality.

 

[talmy]

Imagine for a moment if you would that Apple products stopped improving. What if the devices they were selling 3 years from now were no different or any better than the devices they are selling today. Everybody would freak out, right? Digital pundits would be predicting the imminent end of Apple and all of that, yes?

So why do we complacently accept the same level of quality control, and the same type of customer experience, year after year after year? Where's the "think different" that Apple is always urging us to do?

The answer to your challenge is very simple.

Apple already knows how to remove many bugs from products before they are released, and all they need to do to improve that ratio is more of the same. 100% bug free is perhaps a bridge too far in the real world, but far fewer bugs is not.

Sure, suppose they spent the next three years removing bugs from Mavericks. It would presumably have far fewer bugs, but everyone would "freak out" because Apple wasn't innovating. People want new features more than they want bug free.

There are already hundreds of beta testers yet the possibility of covering every way of using ever model of computer is zero. It actually works best for the software to be released and then rely on consumers to find (and hopefully report) problems. Apple has already automated crash reporting back to them. I've had good results with reporting problems at apple.com/feedback although results are certainly not instantaneous they do seem to read them.

Those who have a 1,000 reasons why none of this could ever possibly happen need to explain to us why it's reasonable for Apple to shift the cost of quality control on to the people who buy it's products.

Here's another example...

When you buy a new Mac in the Apple Store, what percent of the purchase price are you expected to give to the sales clerk? 99% won't do, will it? When it comes to your job in this relationship, Apple expects you to do 100% of your job, and a penny less isn't good enough, right? Apple doesn't accept a lot of excuses and rationalizations from us, do they?

On the hardware front I see people expecting "perfect" products. I also feel that's unrealistic. Great products, yes, but perfect, no. There are tradeoffs in every design, so there is no "perfect" just like there is no bug-free software.

 

[Tech198]

i hate to agree, but your right... Mavericks in the worst i've ever encountered.


The only thing keeping me here, it i can still get my work done, and these bugs aren't that annoying to the point i must go back to 10.8.5.

Apple said time and time again they've fixed IMAP with Gmail, but the more and more i think about it Aple is becoming another Microsoft.

They fixed IMAP, even a separate patch for this which didn't help.

Then in 10.9.2, they break it again...

Yes, things break all the time, but you would at least test what you have just done to make sure it all still works, like going over again a program just to see all the bugs are ironed out, even with code additions...

Apple didn't do that with the GoToFail clearly, so its no surprise all these bugs get revisited again, that were fixed in 10.8.5.

iOS7.x is the same by the same.... So, really whats changed for Apple ? If anything, i'd say they've gone downhill, not up-hill.

 

[Felasco]

talmy,

Thanks again for your reply.

In regards to free stuff, such as Mavericks, we are in agreement that the vendor does not have an obligation to release a finished product. It would be professional for them to accurately label unfinished work as beta, but if they wish to pretend it's done and are willing to suffer the reputation consequences for such a fantasy, so be it.

If Mavericks were all we were talking about, I wouldn't have much to say here, and would shrug and walk away.

My concern is that a business philosophy of "let the customers find the bugs" seems to extend in to every corner of the Apple product line. I will spare you the anecdotal stories, as I expect you've read as many or more as I have.

It's my belief that we are not being supportive of Apple's future by enabling and rationalizing such an outdated business philosophy. If you'll forgive a short story, I'll try to explain why by putting this issue in a larger context.

Younger readers may not realize that back in the fifties and sixties the customer experience across our culture was very different.

As example, restaurants didn't allow you to customize a menu choice. It was amazing to us when around 1965 the Burger King in our town advertised "have it your way" and allowed customers to specify what would go on your burger.

In those days, it was close to impossible to return anything to a store, you almost needed an attorney to do that. These days, stores like Home Depot will take anything back, at any time, without a receipt. I believe I could bring them a truck load of chickens and they'd say OK with a smile and put some money back on my credit card.

Here's the point...

The consumer experience has changed dramatically for the better over my lifetime, and that cultural trend is not over.

As example, consider the coming era of personalized medicine, where custom drugs will be created just for you based on your DNA etc.

If Apple continues to insist on shifting much of the burden of quality control on to it's customers, it will increasingly be seen as the new Microsoft, an arrogant dull witted company of the past, out of step with an emerging future.

Ok, just one anecdotal story.

I could easily afford to buy 10 new Macs, and work online all day everyday. But I haven't bought a new Mac in 12 years, because I'm sick of playing the lemon lottery.

That's the future for Apple you are arguing for, imho.

Thanks for the dialog!

 

[b3av3r]

Mavericks was the first update to the OS since I switched over to macs with my MBA. Even though I have gone through several major OS updates with windows (win95 - win7) I was very hesitant about updating my Mac.

However, I went ahead and bit the bullet and did the update. The install was perfect with 0 problems. And the performance since the update has been fine. I haven't noticed any bugs or problems at all. I am a very basic user (safari, chrome, mail, open office, and iMovie) so I imagine if you are using other programs there may be problems.

I don't think there has been a single company that has ever released a major update without some issues. And it seems like the OP is in the minority with their problems.

 

[Felasco]

Even though I have gone through several major OS updates with windows (win95 - win7) I was very hesitant about updating my Mac. However, I went ahead and bit the bullet and did the update.

As you may already know (apologies if you do), there is a good solution to the concern you very understandably felt in regards to upgrading.

First, back up your entire Mac to a bootable external drive with a program like SuperDuper (very easy to use). This is always a good idea in any case

Then you can install the new operating system, in this case Mavericks, in to a partition on your Mac, or on to an external drive. You can safely experiment with the new system here without a care. If you don't like what you see, simply delete the experiment and go back to your old system, which remains safely untouched.

What I did was install Mavericks on an external drive, and then installed the latest version of all my major programs. I tried doing the kinds of things I usually do, and discovered the new set up couldn't perform these tasks as well as my existing setup (I probably don't have enough RAM for Mavericks) so I rebooted in to Snow Leopard, which had never been touched or changed in any way.

If you already know all this, sorry, hopefully it might be useful to someone else.

 

[b3av3r]

As you may already know (apologies if you do), there is a good solution to the concern you very understandably felt in regards to upgrading.

First, back up your entire Mac to a bootable external drive with a program like SuperDuper (very easy to use). This is always a good idea in any case

Then you can install the new operating system, in this case Mavericks, in to a partition on your Mac, or on to an external drive. You can safely experiment with the new system here without a care. If you don't like what you see, simply delete the experiment and go back to your old system, which remains safely untouched.

What I did was install Mavericks on an external drive, and then installed the latest version of all my major programs. I tried doing the kinds of things I usually do, and discovered the new set up couldn't perform these tasks as well as my existing setup (I probably don't have enough RAM for Mavericks) so I rebooted in to Snow Leopard, which had never been touched or changed in any way.

If you already know all this, sorry, hopefully it might be useful to someone else.

I did not know about installing the new OS to an external hard drive. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Felasco]

You're welcome. Here's a link to SuperDuper the backup program, should that be useful.

http://www.shirt-pocket.com/SuperDuper/superduperdescription.html

The first time you backup your Mac it has to copy every file so it takes awhile, a few hours. After that first time it only copies new files and changed files, much faster.

If you have your entire Mac regularly backed up to an external drive, you have no worries. Even if the hard drive in your Mac should completely die, you can boot up from the backup drive in just a minute, and keep right on working.

I never had a good backup strategy until I found SuperDuper, but it is so easy to use that now I actually do the backups.

 

[cammykool]

for me Mavericks has been a mixed bag on my 2011 2.3 gHz core i5 MBP. it was probably all my crap on my hdd i just did a refresh of the OS and its running better but I'm scared to do anything because it'll do the same thing (before i clocked it bouncing for about a minute with no sign of the app.)

im not sure what i did to make it so slow (if i even did)

 

[Altemose]

for me Mavericks has been a mixed bag on my 2011 2.3 gHz core i5 MBP. it was probably all my crap on my hdd i just did a refresh of the OS and its running better but I'm scared to do anything because it'll do the same thing (before i clocked it bouncing for about a minute with no sign of the app.)

im not sure what i did to make it so slow (if i even did)

I did notice that on HDD based Macs it does seem to run quite a bit slower than SSDs, duh. However, I am not sure what exactly causes the specific issue you were having. What did you do to "refresh" it? Did you reinstall but maintain files and programs via the Recovery HD?

 

[thejadedmonkey]

I had to go through this thread to make sure I didn't say something already, I feel like there's a thread like this every other day

If you think that Mavericks is the worst, most buggy OS apple has ever released, you should try Leopard where an upgrade could give you a BSOD, or Snow Leopard where letting a guest login could wipe your user account.

Until your computer has a BSOD or wipes your user account with a massive data loss bug, let me just say this: You're wrong.

And don't get me wrong, since Apple Computer Inc. became Apple Inc, I haven't been a huge fan of them.

 

[Altemose]

I had to go through this thread to make sure I didn't say something already, I feel like there's a thread like this every other day

If you think that Mavericks is the worst, most buggy OS apple has ever released, you should try Leopard where an upgrade could give you a BSOD, or Snow Leopard where letting a guest login could wipe your user account.

Until your computer has a BSOD or wipes your user account with a massive data loss bug, let me just say this: You're wrong.

And don't get me wrong, since Apple Computer Inc. became Apple Inc, I haven't been a huge fan of them.

That means alot since you are a 604 rank. I have notice they are more focused on iToys but I think that is changing. As more and more people begin to hate Windows 8.x whatever they call it not and these 2 in 1 computer tablet things more and more will come to either the Mac or the Chromebook. The Chromebook in and of itself give the MacBook Air a run for its money for basic users. I depend on local based programs so Chromebooks aren't an option for me and I do not trust some sources of the cloud.

 

[cammykool]

I did notice that on HDD based Macs it does seem to run quite a bit slower than SSDs, duh. However, I am not sure what exactly causes the specific issue you were having. What did you do to "refresh" it? Did you reinstall but maintain files and programs via the Recovery HD?

Nope complete wipe. i had a bootcamp drive setup but i rarely used it. when opening things like chrome or word it would just bounce bounce and bounce..... and beach ball heaven too...

 

[Altemose]

Nope complete wipe. i had a bootcamp drive setup but i rarely used it. when opening things like chrome or word it would just bounce bounce and bounce..... and beach ball heaven too...

So what did you do to get it running like it is now, rather well that is?

 

[thejadedmonkey]

That means alot since you are a 604 rank.

Don't overrate me. My rank of 604 just means I post on here way too much

 

[Altemose]

Don't overrate me. My rank of 604 just means I post on here way too much

Well alright then.

 

[irnchriz]

Why, oh WHY? Did all the people designing the OS in Apple get lobotomized? What in god's name has happened to this once excellent company?

This OS is so buggy that Mail and Safari -- kind of important for a computer, that "getting email" and "using the internet" stuff -- simply do not work. Safari hangs everytime I try to input text in a text input window (e.g., signing into a site). Mail does not retrieve Mail. One suggested solution is to delete your accounts and then re-add them. Great -- but Mail has inexplicably moved its Accounts listing out of the application and into Software Preferences where it hangs every time I try to access it.

There are so many problems with this OS (look at so many of the threads here; e.g., https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1668874/).

I mourn the loss of a once great company -- no company with any regard for its products would foist this buggy, useless piece of junk on its customers.

(And don't get me started on Siri. If it's in beta, don't release it to consumers. Make it work. Then release it. Common sense, right?)

Sounds like your install is broken, or you are running on an old mac.

 

[-hh]

In regards to free stuff, such as Mavericks, we are in agreement that the vendor does not have an obligation to release a finished product. It would be professional for them to accurately label unfinished work as beta, but if they wish to pretend it's done and are willing to suffer the reputation consequences for such a fantasy, so be it.

Except that Mavericks wasn't 'free': I dropped five bills for my Mac Pro and the OS is an integral part of the manufacturer's commitment to support that hardware purchase.

Likewise, every other Mavericks customer had to purchase Apple Hardware.


Insofar as the bugs, I would have normally agreed with the attitude of "well, it happens and is the price of innovation", although I do mitigate that risk by never going with .0 releases - - I've only finally upgraded to Mavericks within the past month ... and until this past weekend, I thought I had waited long enough.

Now how's this for a bug:

BEFORE:

OS X Mavericks Mac Desktop:
account1@domain1
account2@domain1
account1@domain2

iPhone
account1@domain1
account3@domain1

iPad
account1@domain1

AFTER:
OS X Mavericks Mac Desktop:
account1@domain1
account2@domain1
account3@domain1 <--- what was changed (added account)
account1@domain2

iPhone
account1@domain1
account3@domain1

iPad
account1@domain1

IMPACT:
OS X Mavericks Mac Desktop:
account1@domain1 <--- can't connect
account2@domain1 <--- can't connect
account3@domain1 <--- can't connect
account1@domain2

iPhone
account1@domain1 <--- can't connect
account3@domain1 <--- can't connect

iPad
account1@domain1 <--- can't connect


I'm already working with my 'domain1' provider to try to troubleshoot, because the common link is the "domain1", but everything on their end looks OK to them. Domain2 works fine.

You'll note that at no time did I do an ADMIN login to domain1 to change anything on that end .. and where things stand now, I can no longer do so on my Mac ("invalid Password" which hasn't changed).


-hh

 

[Felasco]

We shouldn't be debating bugs vs. no bugs, because that's not the realistic choice. We should be discussing whether the current number of bugs across the Apple product line can be dramatically reduced. What are the costs and tradeoffs of such a reduction etc...

We also shouldn't be debating bugs vs. innovation, because just as innovation can be used to enhance Apple products in many other ways, it can be used to reduce bugs and improve the customer experience as well.

Just as we expect the features of products to get better each year, year after year, we should be expecting the customer experience to continually improve as well. Just as we compare the Macs of 2004 to the Macs of 2014 and marvel at the improvements, we should be able to do the same thing in regards to quality control and the customer experience. Just as Apple justifiably brags about leading in so many design and technical arenas, it should be putting itself in a position to brag about it's dominance in the customer experience arena as well.

All of the above is very much in tune with the philosophy that has been Apple's brand since the very beginning, user friendliness.

But it's not enough that the products be user friendly, the company has to be too. Accomplishing that requires an earnest good faith honest effort by Apple and it's users to move decisively towards dramatically few bugs. Bugs are not friendly.