Mavericks is the worst, most buggy OS Apple has ever released.

[Felasco]

So, let's talk about how Mavericks might have been released differently, in a manner that shows respect for Mac users and enhances Apple's reputation, instead of putting a dent in that reputation. Such a plan can be expanded across the Apple product line.

First, software like Mavericks that still has lots of bugs should be labeled as BETA. Such honesty costs Apple and it's users nothing.

The next step is to expand the beta testing team. Others above have suggested that it takes millions of real world users to adequately test complex software like an OS. Ok, fair enough, good point, so let's line up millions of real world beta testers. Here's how Apple can do that....

Pay them.

It can be a fun contest thing, with a clever name like The Big Bad Bug Hunt. Anyone can download Mavericks and play with it, and if they are the first one to discover and report a bug to Apple, they get paid. Testers will be rushing to grab the cash, so the beta testing will proceed even faster than normal.

The only difference between this plan and what happens now is that Apple, one of the richest companies in the world, would be paying for the costs of developing it's own software. The burden of testing and quality control is not shifted from Apple to it's customers.

The other difference is that none of us would have to fear .0 versions of software, nor would they embarrass Apple, because .0 would no longer mean "buggy betaware".

It would be harder to expand such a plan to the hardware side, but in the end the question is the same...

Who is going to pay for finishing Apple's products?

Apple?

Or you?

 

[talmy]

The next step is to expand the beta testing team. Others above have suggested that it takes millions of real world users to adequately test complex software like an OS. Ok, fair enough, good point, so let's line up millions of real world beta testers. Here's how Apple can do that....

Pay them.

I've beta tested many companies products for decades. Up until the mid 90's it seemed that every beta tester was paid at least in the form of getting the final release software free but often with various spiffs like t-shirts. Then something happened and beta testing became some sort of privilege with the only benefit being early access. Some companies even charge for access. Must be part of the rush to get something new (which also leads to release before its ready).

Just to clear up a few points in advance -- software used to be really expensive so getting free software was a really good deal. It helped me get software packages I would otherwise not be able to afford. And when I say "some companies even charge for access" I'm not putting Apple in that category -- they charge developers for access but not beta testers. I use Plex and they charge for beta access. NeoOffice (which I don't use) at least used to charge for the right to send in bug reports!

 

[cammykool]

So what did you do to get it running like it is now, rather well that is?

Wiped my hard drive....

 

[Yaboze]

I thought Lion was the worst, which is the reason I am keeping Snow Leopard 10.6.8 on my old 2007 White MacBook (C2D/4GB).

But I also have a 2011 MBP and Mavericks runs well on it with no issues. The key to it all? Do a clean install. It works wonders. I'm thinking that maybe it just doesn't upgrade well, I don't know, but a clean install, especially on a SSD, is amazing.

 

[talmy]

But I also have a 2011 MBP and Mavericks runs well on it with no issues. The key to it all? Do a clean install. It works wonders. I'm thinking that maybe it just doesn't upgrade well, I don't know, but a clean install, especially on a SSD, is amazing.

Maybe. My 2009 27" iMac came with Snow Leopard and I migrated my account from an older iMac that came with Tiger, then upgraded to Leopard and Snow Leopard. Since 2009 the iMac has been further upgraded through Lion, Mountain Lion, and now Mavericks. So it has cruft going back 5 OS generations. Still runs fine, though. Based on the misery I've had with Windows upgrades (which always require clean installs, it seems) I'm not about to do it with Mac OS if I can help it!

 

[Felasco]

Thanks talmy, your post is quite interesting. I'd be interested in hearing your further reflections.

Then something happened and beta testing became some sort of privilege with the only benefit being early access. Some companies even charge for access. Must be part of the rush to get something new (which also leads to release before its ready).

Are you saying the companies see no need to pay testers because they have so many people willing to do it for free?

If true, that's great news, except that the companies still can't seem to get the job done. I was thinking maybe the testing budget was a limitation. If that's not the case, what's their excuse then?

What say you?

 

[roadbloc]

Someone clearly doesn't remember Tiger.

Tiger has always been perfect for me (the PPC version at least). I guess people have different needs and experiences depending on their hardware configuration. Leopard and Lion were both horrible for me.

 

[talmy]

Thanks talmy, your post is quite interesting. I'd be interested in hearing your further reflections.

Are you saying the companies see no need to pay testers because they have so many people willing to do it for free?

That certainly seems to be the case! Apple not only has enthusiastic beta testers who work for free (now the OS is free) but also has a web page, apple.com/feedback, where anyone can submit problems. They also appear to monitor their forums for issues.

If true, that's great news, except that the companies still can't seem to get the job done. I was thinking maybe the testing budget was a limitation. If that's not the case, what's their excuse then?

What say you?

Testing budget (time and people) is certainly the limitation. Just having people report bugs doesn't get them fixed. One problem is that the engineers need to be able to replicate the problems, which can be difficult since some beta testers don't give clear reports (just look at some problems reported here!) and every system is different -- not just in hardware but also in software installed and even in usage patterns.

While you are suggesting opening up the betas to the public, that would cause problems both for Apple (they would get more bug reports than they could reasonably handle, with lower quality and more duplication) and for the public (most members of the public should not be using beta software because it can be decidedly non-user-friendly, cause data loss, and be difficult to recover from without some technical prowess).

It's a difficult decision at what point to stop fixing bugs (since fixing them all is impossible) and release the product. Apple has retreated on deadlines when there have been serious issues. But it still the best bet to wait for the .1 release of any software if you don't want to uncover at least a few problems yourself!

I've considered Snow Leopard and Mountain Lion to be the "bug fix" versions of Leopard and Lion. They added few new features but fixed many problems. Mavericks also seems to be a refinement. Of one thing I'm certain, anyone running Leopard or Lion should upgrade!

 

[camerons1986]

I am updating my late 2011 macbook pro from 10.9.1 to 10.9.2 it's been stuck on Installing Software Update and hasn't moved at all. It's been over an hour. What should i do?

 

[Felasco]

Thanks again talmy, I appreciate the benefit of your experience.

While you are suggesting opening up the betas to the public, that would cause problems both for Apple (they would get more bug reports than they could reasonably handle, with lower quality and more duplication) and for the public...

Yes, but this is exactly my point.

Apple already exposes the public to it's betas, except they're not called betas, and so those who participate in testing don't do so willingly.

These users still submit bug reports, the bug reports still vary greatly in quality, the bug reports are still a burden to Apple, and because the beta experience was not chosen by the user, the bug reports come in the form of complaints. Instead of the user feeling they are a valued part of the development of new products, they feel like a victim.

Instead of bug reports submitted privately to Apple, what we see instead are justified victim claims made to the entire Mac community, such as we see here on the forum.

When it comes to the technical side the Mac community including Apple are creative, confident, dynamic, innovative, forward leaning etc. We are Mac People!

When it comes to the customer experience side, all of this talent is thrown away, and we and Apple are little more than an endless list of excuses and rationalizations of a stagnant status quo. We are mindless drones of the corporate gulag etc, Windows People!

 

[Small White Car]

Tiger has always been perfect for me (the PPC version at least). I guess people have different needs and experiences depending on their hardware configuration. Leopard and Lion were both horrible for me.

My comment was based on maintaining Tiger on 8 different Macs with 7 different users representing 3 different kinds of careers over 2 entire years.

I feel safe to say that it was the OS that was the problem, not the hardware.

 

[roadbloc]

My comment was based on maintaining Tiger on 8 different Macs with 7 different users representing 3 different kinds of careers over 2 entire years.

I feel safe to say that it was the OS that was the problem, not the hardware.

Strange. Tiger is the only OS X that has yet to give me a single problem. Even today, it is still my favorite OS X.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[maflynn]

Strange. Tiger is the only OS X that has yet to give me a single problem. Even today, it is still my favorite OS X.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

I loved Tiger, I think it was the best mixture of features, performance and svelte size. After that OSX started getting bloated.

With that said, I've not incurred any major issues with Mavericks - its been rock solid for me.

 

[Quackers]

No real problems at all with Mavericks here apart from the original indexing stage which was a pain.
Fine since.

 

[Eithanius]

I loved Tiger, I think it was the best mixture of features, performance and svelte size. After that OSX started getting bloated.

With that said, I've not incurred any major issues with Mavericks - its been rock solid for me.

Ditto on Tiger...!

However Mavericks is still in some way much more bloated than Snow Leopard, let alone Tiger...

 

[n-evo]

Incredible how people tend to remember mostly the positive things. Mac OS X Tiger was a disaster too in the beginning. The GM version actually had more issues than the last Developer Preview. It took three major updates before most problems were fixed. Apparently Apple was so happy about it they made a huge deal out of the 10.4.3 update with special packaging. Hell, Apple even released another 10.4.x update after Mac OS X Leopard was released to fix a major wi-fi (or whatever) bug. Mac OS X Tiger didn't have 11 updates because it was such a solid release...

 

[talmy]

Apple already exposes the public to it's betas, except they're not called betas, and so those who participate in testing don't do so willingly.

Here I have to disagree. Apple has a beta program which runs in parallel with the developer program. The beta program runs almost continuously. *You* may want to call the released software "betas" but they technically are not and the beta testers move on the to next beta.

Just because software still has bugs does not make it a beta. If it did then virtually all software would be beta now and forever.

 

[r0k]

I like Mavericks. I do. I like that it uses memory more efficiently than Mountain Lion and my MBP is faster with Mavericks.

But...

I found that on several occasions, I went to send an email and had to spend a LOT of my time debugging. I have my own domain. I use google apps to host my domain. For some reason, mail.app can't get this through its thick head. I tried airmail and that app came with its own set of problems. First of all I'm pissed that I had to buy an email app to get around the shackles in mail.app. Sending me out to system preferences to fix email login issues, and thereby having those issues propagate to my iThings is downright criminal. I've now shut down iCloud password sync across devices because of how jumbled up things got.

I don't know what to call my experience in Mavericks so far, but it reminds me more of Windows than of OSX. I mean when I'm sending an email it's almost always because of a deadline and I really don't have 20 or 40 minutes or more to figure out login issues and smtp server issues and the like. I know some of this is google's fault for their implementation of IMAP but it doesn't make it any easier for me to accept Apple's crippling of Apple mail. On a desktop computer, I really should be able to use a "catch-all" gmail box and reply to a given message as the person it was addressed to rather than a me.com email or a gmail login that I never wanted to give out.

I've gotten to the point that whenever an app crashes, in the report to Apple comments section I routinely put in "Can I have Snow Leopard back?" I hope this gets some attention in Cupertino. I should be able to use Mavericks without having to rely on browser based email solutions to get around Mavericks' limitations. To me a large part of the value proposition with Apple gear is time. Apple is selling me my time back. No time wasted on virus subscriptions. No time wasted on activation issues. This means I should not have to waste time finding workarounds and third party apps to allow me to use my chosen email workflow.

The dumbing down of mail.app that started in Mountain Lion and accelerated in Mavericks along with the way iCloud password sync interferes with my workflow is seriously cutting into the very value proposition that brought my household to use Apple products in the first place.

 

[Tbone999]

Sounds like your install is broken, or you are running on an old mac.

My mac has a 3.06 Ghz intel core duo with 8GB of system memory and an ATI Radeon 4850 graphics chip. I don't think that's close to too old.



Anyway, I finally got Mavericks Mai to work (received email, sent email, etc) but after several days, it hangs whenever I either try to send email or, in some cases, when I simply try to reply to an email. That's on my desktop.

On my laptop, Mavericks Mail stopped sending emails. It shows them as sent, and when you send, it appears to be sending, but no one has ever received the emails I sent using this machine.

Again, Mavericks Mail has never worked consistently on two different machines on which it is installed. I installed Inky, because I HAVE to have consistent, working email on my computers. I don't have any more time to fool around trying to make something work which I really shouldn't have to spend time on at all.

As Steve Jobs said, your computer should work like a pen. You don't have to think about how to use the pen, you just pick it up and use it.

 

[Altemose]

My mac has a 3.06 Ghz intel core duo with 8GB of system memory and an ATI Radeon 4850 graphics chip. I don't think that's close to too old.



Anyway, I finally got Mavericks Mai to work (received email, sent email, etc) but after several days, it hangs whenever I either try to send email or, in some cases, when I simply try to reply to an email. That's on my desktop.

On my laptop, Mavericks Mail stopped sending emails. It shows them as sent, and when you send, it appears to be sending, but no one has ever received the emails I sent using this machine.

Again, Mavericks Mail has never worked consistently on two different machines on which it is installed. I installed Inky, because I HAVE to have consistent, working email on my computers. I don't have any more time to fool around trying to make something work which I really shouldn't have to spend time on at all.

As Steve Jobs said, your computer should work like a pen. You don't have to think about how to use the pen, you just pick it up and use it.

Not to try and be a pointless poster but Mavericks has been fine with my Gmail and my iCloud email. Perhaps you need to remove and reinstall all email accounts with the latest settings? Just food for thought...

 

[irnchriz]

My mac has a 3.06 Ghz intel core duo with 8GB of system memory and an ATI Radeon 4850 graphics chip. I don't think that's close to too old.



Anyway, I finally got Mavericks Mai to work (received email, sent email, etc) but after several days, it hangs whenever I either try to send email or, in some cases, when I simply try to reply to an email. That's on my desktop.

On my laptop, Mavericks Mail stopped sending emails. It shows them as sent, and when you send, it appears to be sending, but no one has ever received the emails I sent using this machine.

Again, Mavericks Mail has never worked consistently on two different machines on which it is installed. I installed Inky, because I HAVE to have consistent, working email on my computers. I don't have any more time to fool around trying to make something work which I really shouldn't have to spend time on at all.

As Steve Jobs said, your computer should work like a pen. You don't have to think about how to use the pen, you just pick it up and use it.

Running Mavs on 4 macs, a 2009 27" quad core iMac, 15" MacBook Pro, 13" MacBook Pro and a mini. All have 4 email accounts in Mail, 3 exchange and 1 iCloud. No issues at all.

 

[Tbone999]

Hey, I'm happy that there are folks who haven't had any issues with Mavericks Mail -- I just want to point out that the number of complaints and issues arising with this version is far far greater than previous releases. I'm not alone.

I will indeed try removing my email account and re-adding it. It is, after all, the only account I really care about. (I have some others but they're not so important.)

Thanks so much for everyone's suggestions.

 

[AgentElliot007]

I'd like to note as someone who tends to support a lot of Macs, I've had no major problems with mine personally sans restarts hanging. Otherwise, Mavericks has been pretty solid for me.

But...

I have never had so many issues with other peoples installations. Sure, some others have no problems, but I'd almost say that the majority of people I support are having at least some issues that I would categorize as major relative to what the system should be able to do rather easily. Some of the issues have been utterly ridiculous, to the point that a once stable system has become a crashing machine that can't function for more than a few minutes before restarting. I have never heard so many people say "gray screen of death." And yeah, people say it's a hardware problem or an install problem, except overwrite installs do nothing, clean installs on formatted drives do nothing, and if I split drives and run a 10.8 partition, everything works fine.

I get that a lot of people aren't having problems, but at this stage in the game with OS X, it strikes me as a little absurd that they've put out a system this buggy for so many people. It's really disappointing, and it's just another one of those nights where I'm really running out of excuses for Apple's lack of quality control on the software side. I get that there have been buggy releases in the past, but we're a long ways away from the early days of OS X now. And it's been six months and most of the 10.9.0 bugs still exists in 10.9.2. Hell, multiple people have had significantly more severe issues since 10.9.2.

If you're not having issues, consider yourself lucky. I do. But there are a lot of people pulling their hair out working on machines "upgraded" with Mavericks that are now not even stable by Windows 7 standards, and that is a shame. They really do need to get their act together with software development and perhaps scale back the yearly releases, at least for OS X. If they're going to be this problematic, new features just aren't worth it.

 

[SlCKB0Y]

Hey, I'm happy that there are folks who haven't had any issues with Mavericks Mail -- I just want to point out that the number of complaints and issues arising with this version is far far greater than previous releases.

Absolute rubbish. With every release there is a vocal minority which moans on about it being the worst release yet and how everything is broken - without caring that they represent a fraction of a percent of overall users.

Its beyond their comprehension that this forum is a massively biased sample - it is one of the primary places for people to moan online and for every person here complaining, there are hundreds who are happy.

 

[Donoban]

Absolute rubbish. With every release there is a vocal minority which moans on about it being the worst release yet and how everything is broken - without caring that they represent a fraction of a percent of overall users.

Its beyond their comprehension that this forum is a massively biased sample - it is one of the primary places for people to moan online and for every person here complaining, there are hundreds who are happy.

I take your point. I'm a new Mac user. I upgraded from ML to Mavericks and since the upgrade I often experience Finder crashes (spinning colour wheel), iTunes crashes (same deal), Word will often crash (annoying when writing assignments), etc. Under ML the system never crashed applications like this.

This is just my experience, I have an i7 Mac Mini with 16gb of ram which should be more than enough to run this OS without a hitch.

I'm not sure if you have an iPad/iPhone but iOS 7 would frequently quit apps back to the home screen(since fixed in 7.1 I beleive) and it would appear Mavericks also has a few issues to be worked out.

Is Apple now feeling they release software and let their users do the final testing of their software?

Who knows, I think most Apple fans will be forgiving to a point, granted we've had a few drives erased since Mavericks came out (not Apples fault if I recall correctly) the crashes people are experiencing pale in comparison. lolz.

What a rant.

Thanks for reading.

D