Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Microsoft Edge Looks Set to Overtake Safari as World's Second Most Popular Desktop Browser
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
In the end, the fact that most of the world is gravitating towards the Google-developed Chromium web browser code with its Blink web layout engine (Google Chrome, Microsoft Edge, Brave, Opera, and several others) is about to make Safari feel "behind the times." Apple needs to address this as soon as possible.
Last edited:
The only way for Apple to address it is to abandon webkit and develop it’s own Chromium based web browser. But I suspect Apple is going to be the last web browser who makes the switch and in addition it would require a major software rewrite for all their devices since I believe webkit is baked into the operating system.
Try disabling ghostery for that site and also erasing cookies/cache (macOS). Go to preferences -> privacy -> Manage Website Data... (hilarious a button with '...' on it's text, another Apple godly UX gem), now search for n-tv -> select it and remove all. Quit & re-open Safari, and give it a try.
Last edited:
Even if they did that, bearing by their level of software since Cook, the lack of QA and how slow they've been to improve apps, it may take them 5 years, maybe a decade to be "on par" or better.
It's unbelievable how companies like Microsoft or Google, even data mining you to death, can easily outperform Apple's own apps (in their own platform).
And they expect people to use Swift ?
That's exactly what I thought. I was tired of Chrome and heard rumours of its background processes. Someone said to try Edge as its chromium and all the extensions worked. I kind of scoffed at the idea, but tried it out. I have to say I'm very impressed. I did have that negative opinion based off IE.
Web developers stress about browsers and there’s a push from them to have everyone stress about browsers (the whole safari is IE thing) so that they have a convenient excuse for doing less testing. I mean, that’s been web developers for as long as there’s been web development!
Back in the day, developers had to test multiple different browsers and versions of browsers, but they ALWAYS wanted to test for as few as possible (and a large number only wanted to test for IE).Today, a large number ONLY want to test for chrome, so any difference anyone’s likely to see in browser rendering today is primarily going to be between developers creating chrome specific pages and users not using a chrome based browser.
Quite frankly I do not blame web delopers only testing for Chrome since most web browsers are using the Chromium web engine. If Apple and Firefox choose not to switch over then they are making the user experience awful for their users not the web developer.Web developers stress about browsers and there’s a push from them to have everyone stress about browsers (the whole safari is IE thing) so that they have a convenient excuse for doing less testing. I mean, that’s been web developers for as long as there’s been web development!
Today, a large number ONLY want to test for chrome, so any difference anyone’s likely to see in browser rendering today is primarily going to be between developers creating chrome specific pages and users not using a chrome based browser.
Thanks for your advise. But this behaviour is the same on iPad as well and it happens on new sites I visit for the first time. iPad Browser has no ghostery installed.
Additionally, this behaviour happens sometimes. Right at the moment the site loads quite well.
I one was a fighter for Safari, but now I think I have to replace it with either FireFox or Edge - or maybe Brave, I did not test Brave on the Desktop.
doesn't work properly. it still obscures the web address. Also 'SMART SEARCH' field needs to die. It's never smart enough.
Here's an example
Right now : this thread
Safari and Vivaldi on mac, and vivaldi on windows:
Vivaldi I can see the whole address. See all that wasted space? Oh yeahthere is none. I can also decide to make the search box and address bar bigger or smaller by moving the divider that separates them.
Look at safari. Why does it waste that space like that ? Why does it prioritise having a 'nice' looking centre address bar over the actual function of the thing ?
It's such a basic thing .
Last edited:
if you long click the Refesh button, and choose reload page with no content blockers, does it work ?
Don't think is an age problem. I'm 49, 50 in may. Started using computers when I was 9, in a time where graphical user interfaces where reserved to games as far as consumers were concerned. Concepts such as multi window systems where a mirage to consumers. Tabs? What Tabs?.
Umm you are using the term browsing browsing. In the demo when using say RainDrop the activity is not one of browsing. Neither is say when you use an mail application inside a browser.
I think you may be being too abstract. If I take your abstraction to its core I could not see the benefit of say having an App Store inside a tab in a browser. Well ... it is not is it? As I cannot see the benefit for some of the apps used in the explanation to be confined in a Tab of some others app say a browser ... the only reason it is, is fundamentally historical in the context of the web. Think about word processors, spreadsheets, email, accounting apps, project management apps ... all of this already exists on top of web tech.
It's the concept of the browser in a OS that needs to evolve considering that people are no longer just browsing on a web of hyperlinks as it was 10 years ago. Steve Jobs actually predicted this ... when he advocated for HTML5.
Well if you consider that all apps in the icons in the macOS Launchpad or in the dock are bookmarks ... maybe they should be in a bookmarks list inside a web browser no?
Have you watch the video? I mean, forget the browser. The browser becomes transparent. I use web browsing for browsing the web and use apps to do other stuff. It does not matter if the apps are native or web based ... both share similar interaction model in the context of the OS ... check my video.
In my video it just happens that currently Edge is the browser supporting this ... not Safari as I would prefer ... Apple magic. But one can imagine Apple baking this into the OS experience with Safari. Click on a link to install ... installed. Go to the Application folder delete ... to uninstall ... done ... permissions ... just like a native macOS or iOS app.
Humm. Not everything is an application in my view. For instance, for demo purposes installed Macrumors in its own window. I would not do this, I would use the browser for that matter. For things like productivity apps and games ... yes. There are usability advantages in that. I find nonsensical if not inconvenient to have say raindrop, MacRumors, Engadget, a notes app and a word processors all trapped inside one single Window with tabs. One has nothing to do with the other.
Tabs in UX are design artifacts that where built to convey alternate views over the same context or subject. Not to navigate between apps. The concept sticked to a web browser 20 years ago because the activity was one ... browsing the web. Mostly information consumption ... alternate views of the web if you will. But today things have evolved and we are no longer using the web browser just ti browse the web but to enact functionality, to interact with applications, not just content.
Again don't think your conditions is about age. Probably preference? Who knows. Maybe its my fault ... did not explained it well enough. Maybe what confused you is the fact I started from a web browser ... who knows.
I know ... its silly. Really bad choice of Apple.
Give to the browser what are web pages and to windows what are web apps. Not everything is an App but also not everything that today on the web are web pages. This is what Edge allows me to do and Safari does not. Use each thing for what it actually is ... increasing productivity.
To do this with Apple tech, for prosumers, one would need to develop a native App and put in the App Store, go through a incredibly burocractic, signing contracts .... revenue shares and all. With this tech, given the correct support from the OS, it becomes so simple. So simple that can be confused with a bookmark.
Cheers.
Last edited:
Yes. Sorry, experimenting with that for a week or so. Spotlight would behave the same for the purpose.
Hi
It's difficult to wrap my head around this. It's seems to be totally a matter of perspective.
I tried the Zimbra App one time. It's literally one of these web app things that basically runs the web client in its own little environment. All the disadvantage no benefit ?
Discord more recently is the same. The standalone discord app is basically the web page that I can see in my browser, but only now it's in a limited kind of sandbox browser environment. I uninstalled it. I far prefer it in my browser.
To digress
This reminds me a little of NNTP/usenet vs web forums . as you'll know you used to choose your favourite news reader and interface with the usenet the way you wanted to, using your choice of software, with your interface, your settings, as you wish. killfiles, shortcuts, etc all totally customisable. Web forums, on the other hand, you get what you're given, everyone in on the same centralised system, no configurabilty. What about disabled access etc? it's all out of your hands as to whether you can access a resource you now have no choice how to view the content of this system any more.
This is probly some kind of larger slow push to reduce control of the people about how they interact with the web.
Ugh. The app Store being it's own app is so infuriating. I didn't even realise this until now. For example one very obvious and annoying issue: I can't open up 2 tabs on 2 different apps to compare them . I could do that if I was browing an app store in a browser that used convention. It's so clunky. I hate using the app store app.
On the few times that I've wanted to say immerse my self in the 'app' Like draw.io for example. I just full screen the app in safari. (which is handled by the Mac OS of course) and boom I have an 'app' that doesn't look like a browser. But I still have the power of the browser one click away.
youtube app - sucks- Youtube webpage in a browser - better
Amazon app - sucks - amazon webpage in a browser- better
It's difficult to wrap my head around this. It's seems to be totally a matter of perspective.
Well i'm not far behind.
I use Zimbra email. I have it open in the first tab of my web browser. I can use it completely fully. attachements open in a new tab. I can do *whatever* with those attachments i need to because I'm running a decent browser that lets me do what I need to do the way I want to. I am running the 'mail app' in a fuill powered capabled, configurable, browser environment.
I tried the Zimbra App one time. It's literally one of these web app things that basically runs the web client in its own little environment. All the disadvantage no benefit ?
Discord more recently is the same. The standalone discord app is basically the web page that I can see in my browser, but only now it's in a limited kind of sandbox browser environment. I uninstalled it. I far prefer it in my browser.
To digress
This reminds me a little of NNTP/usenet vs web forums . as you'll know you used to choose your favourite news reader and interface with the usenet the way you wanted to, using your choice of software, with your interface, your settings, as you wish. killfiles, shortcuts, etc all totally customisable. Web forums, on the other hand, you get what you're given, everyone in on the same centralised system, no configurabilty. What about disabled access etc? it's all out of your hands as to whether you can access a resource you now have no choice how to view the content of this system any more.
This is probly some kind of larger slow push to reduce control of the people about how they interact with the web.
Ugh. The app Store being it's own app is so infuriating. I didn't even realise this until now. For example one very obvious and annoying issue: I can't open up 2 tabs on 2 different apps to compare them . I could do that if I was browing an app store in a browser that used convention. It's so clunky. I hate using the app store app.
On the few times that I've wanted to say immerse my self in the 'app' Like draw.io for example. I just full screen the app in safari. (which is handled by the Mac OS of course) and boom I have an 'app' that doesn't look like a browser. But I still have the power of the browser one click away.
Yes. I remember. There's a few things I 'create a shortcut to' on my iphone that makes a nice icon on my phone so I can go straight there. But it's just launching the website/app in the browser literally a shortcut.
Like a windows style textual start menu ? I suppose with this point i'm struggling to see the difference between a shortcut to a web page (whether it's a dock icon or a bookmark) , and this 'install as web app thing'
So this point was interesting. Maybe i'm not alone, maybe I am. But I absolutely hate using most 'Apps' what are otherwise served by a browser 10x better. Two Examples:
youtube app - sucks- Youtube webpage in a browser - better
Amazon app - sucks - amazon webpage in a browser- better
If i really did this, I would probably have separate browser windows. I often use a separate browser for all stuff relating to a single task. It's this levels thing. grouping/managin dones by window manager dock/taskbar or inside a browser with it's tabs? You will end up chrome book where there is no OS as such, everything is just web powered. It's interesting to think about.
It's interesting yes. I need more info on this. Will see how it goes. Cheers
I don’t blame them either, everyone wants to make their own job as easy as possible
But, as a result, the main group that has a vested interest in pushing these narratives about chrome being the best browser are, of course, pushed by chrome developers.That shouldn’t be confused with any assessment of the actual quality of various rendering engines, just that it benefits web developers that chrome is seen as the ONLY reasonable solution (just like back during the IE days).
Humm. Maybe the App Store app should support multiple tabs?
It seams that you have more of an issue with windowing systems than with my answer. Looking at your description it looks like you wanted an OS where the browser is the canvas for interaction and the task manager is represented with tabs. Wasn't Chrome OS like that awhile ago?
It did not work that well.
Your issues seam to be beyond the scope of Safari vs Edge in terms of features. You like tabs so much that prefer to use them as a task manager than using multiple windows and that is just it. I think the windowing systems we have to day has proven to be the better GUI to jump between apps rather than other alternatives. But its moving off topic.
Just gave an honest answer to what were web apps and PWA, how to they differ from regular content driven web sites ... and why Edge features dealing with this are in my view better than Safari ... considering of course windowing systems such as macOS, linux, windows ... . Safari treats every web site as a content driven web site ... Edge does not ... for good measure in my opinion .. as exemplified.
Cheers.
Last edited:
Chrome is open sourced everybody can contribute towards/use on their own web browser. Microsoft’s Internet Explorer was closed sourced and only controlled by Microsoft. Microsoft did not even allow other companies to use the IE engine to build their own web browser. So I would say Chromium was vastly different compared to the Internet Explorer era. I believe it is time for Mozilla and Apple to admit they lost the browser war and it is time to move on to the open sourced Chromium engine.I don’t blame them either, everyone wants to make their own job as easy as possible
That shouldn’t be confused with any assessment of the actual quality of various rendering engines, just that it benefits web developers that chrome is seen as the ONLY reasonable solution (just like back during the IE days).
Never tried it, while it looks nice, not sure how much better over spotlight would be, would you recommend?
hi your answer was great. no issue with it.
Looking at your description it looks like you wanted an OS where the browser is the canvas for interaction and the task manager is represented with tabs. Wasn't Chrome OS like that awhile ago?
It did not work that well.
Well in a weird way that Kinda looks like my setup albeit very simplfied. Except my the top three left tabs are Zimbra, Discord, and Zendesk tickets. Safari even lets me shrink them down to a special icon -perma tab that I can't accidentally close. Then I have about 30 other tabs to the right.
I struggle to see why I would want to remove this web page from my browser and package it into an app, now managed as if it was a single tab in it's own reduced functionality browser.
... yeah I suppose I do use the browser as a 'workspace' that I can close, resume, mange, book mark, share, print, PDF etc as required. never thought of that. I guess I'm on the road to this app thing already.
I already have half a dozen terminals open, word, excel, mysql mananger, a few utils, a few explorer windows ftp client, notepad++ etc I really don't need another bunch of 'webapps' in the middle of all that. That's a complete mental shift in workflow and task organisation. Also Windows as a WM is pretty bad as it is.
Sure thanks. I still didn't really understand what the difference is though. Like above "I struggle to see why I would want to remove this web page from my browser and package it into an app, now managed as if it was a single tab in it's own reduced functionality browser."
edit thinking about it more the main difference I see between an App and an web is that one needs the internet the other one doesn't. So I can use word offline . I can't use google docs offline.
Sure the edge thing looked neat. Just cannot think of a single time I'd rather use a limited app than a full webpage in a browser. So in raindrop (whatever that is, i read the webpage but I'm still not sure hell of a lot of marketing ) can I open my saved content in new tabs ? Or does it open in a new webbrowser window?
Do you mean because it cannot do a package install thing like edge, or is there a fundamental architectural reason/limit?
A bit off topic, but also to add I suppose 1 thing is that I don't want to keep all my stuff in the cloud. I want local copies of my data, under my control So these various web apps are pretty cold to me from the start. Also most of them cost., you never know how long they will be around for etc. I never use these things for anything I care about or can't save locally.
Last edited:
Sadly, I agree with you. But then, Apple should work with Google to ensure that WebKit web layout engine calls work also under Google's Blink web layout engine.
Webkit is open sourced, too, being where Chromium was forked from
And, I haven’t found a site I need to connect to that won’t render in Safari, so Webkit’s fine as it is.From the perspective of a user that doesn’t use the browsers in question, there’s NO difference between developers that ONLY code and test for IE and developers that ONLY code and test for chrome. They’re both taking those actions because it’s easiest for them and user experience is a secondary concern. And that’s fine. If they get zero visits from Safari users, why NOT code just for chrome?
Brave is trash. I'd use POS Safari before I use Brave.
https://decrypt.co/31522/crypto-brave-browser-redirect
Explain why WindowServer is using 10GB if it's not a memory leak. Lets hear your apology first time user.