Microsoft Says Its New Surface Book 2 is Twice as Powerful as Latest MacBook Pro

[nofear1az]

Smartass. Post a picture of Device Manager. I’ll wait.

Whatever!

1. How many times are you really going into Device Manager? Settings menu I understand as it's going to be a lot and most used items are now listed in there.

2. All Control Panel items are being migrated to the Settings menu, including Device Manager. In giving time.

3. I'm pretty sure I could still finger manage my way through Device Manager on the few times I needed to.

 

[throAU]

Whatever!

1. How many times are you really going into Device Manager? Settings menu I understand as it's going to be a lot and most used items are now listed in there.

2. All Control Panel items are being migrated to the Settings menu, including Device Manager. In giving time.

3. I'm pretty sure I could still finger manage my way through Device Manager on the few times I needed to.

1. Certainly not to manage my devices like mice, keyboards, printers or gaming peripherals. i.e., “devices”. They’re still scattered across the different UIs.
2. They’ve had 8 years so far (Windows 7 released in 2009, Windows 8 in development since then), what’s the hold up? This should have been done by 2012. Again, they’ve had 8 years to do this already, the fact it wasn’t done 5 years ago is beyond a joke. At least provide the old settings in the new UI, even if the old one is left for third party legacy control panel stuff.
3. I could staple my testicles to my desk as well, doesn’t mean its a good idea.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

The CR report you mentioned was talking about old models. No idea what model they use because they are pretty out of touch. Personally, I would put more credence in the JD Power and Associates report - https://www.macrumors.com/2017/04/06/microsoft-surface-beats-ipad-j-d-power/

MS is saying exactly today about the new models as it said about the previous ones. Look problems may exist in any product, some companies fix it other ask you to buy a new model to fix it.

As for the comparison .., Apple quite often in rhetoric overstates they achievements as MS does. At the center of Marketing it’s overstatment, its ridiculous I know. On “you are holding it wrong” that was not definitely the best of Apple. But they did turn around and offer bumper to solve the problem (I had no such problem but I saw other having it).

What did MS for the issue of detaching and reattaching the keyboard when it stopped working as it happened often in SP2 and SP3, and was also expericed in SP4? Flood you with fixing procedures to try your self, exchanges, wait for the next software update, ... or buy the next model. Meanwhile, the official statement was that this stuff only happened to a minor number of people, which as far as the CR goes. Don’t get me started with SP4, the issues are well known. Now I have spent on my SP3 close to 2000 dollars ... You know how many chargers I have bought for SP2 and SP3 has it just stopped working? How about the pogo connectors, how do they get along with the daily ware after 3 years of use?

Have a nice day.

PS: I have never said it was crap. Have I? I just enumerated issues that annoyme. Issues that for the price I think I should not have had to deal with. Now this is subjective, your mileage may vary. For instance, you may be the kind of person that updates laptops every year, or every two year. My self, I tend to pass along to my wife and kids and do use them at least for 3 years. For instance last year I passed along my SP3 to my wife, and she passes her SP2 to my 10 year old kid. He wa always complaining about the keyboard stopped working, and wireless for 3 months ... I remembered I had a MacBook Pro from 2009 in the attic, flushed it out, reset, bang, he is very happy, no problems. It is better than any 400 PC crap, Chromebook or Windows 10. That is what I expect for stuff that costs close to 2000 dollars or more. Believe me, buy a 7 year old MacBook Pro refurb in a good state for 300 dollars and do more than any low cost PC.

 

[convergent]

Well, if your support team had to deal with 1400 trouble tickets a day, you might be in distress as well.

To Windows power users who think windows 10 is such a great user experience: I have no doubt that you guys with 10 or 15 years experience can run Windows 10 just fine, though if you’re honest I’m sure you will recall when you’ve spent several hours (or longer) trying to fix a registry problem or some failed update or new driver install (yeah, the restore point rollback didn’t fix anything, per usual) or some other esoteric problem that’s now preventing your computer from booting.

That’s awesome that you can handle your own tech support; how about this: I’ll recommend the surface book to replace his MacBook if I can give my 77 year old Dad your phone number. With Win 10 being so great, I’m sure he’ll have no need to call.

First off, your 77 year old Dad is probably better off with a Chromebook than either Mac or Windows. My daughter bought one to replace her Windows laptop and its a great way to go for a novice.

I do have years of experience with tech, and I've had problems with both Mac and Windows that I spent hours trying to fix. They both are complex, and they both have issues. If anything, you usually have more options for fixing things on Windows because so much is hidden on a Mac. In my experience, 95% of the Windows problems I've seen in recent times were either on enterprise devices that had a completely ridiculous bloated image with a bunch of unnecessary "security" software, or personal systems that had been mismanaged and a bunch of crap loaded.

The things most of the Apple fans throw out as complaints against Windows stopped being issues years ago. My Surface Pro is just as stable and reliable as any Mac I've owned.
[doublepost=1508501870][/doublepost]

MS is saying exactly today about the new models as it said about the previous ones. Look problems may exist in any product, some companies fix it other ask you to buy a new model to fix it.

As for the comparison .., Apple quite often in rhetoric overstates they achievements as MS does. At the center of Marketing it’s overstatment, its ridiculous I know. On “you are holding it wrong” that was not definitely the best of Apple. But they did turn around and offer bumper to solve the problem (I had no such problem but I saw other having it).

What did MS for the issue of detaching and reattaching the keyboard when it stopped working as it happened often in SP2 and SP3, and was also expericed in SP4? Flood you with fixing procedures to try your self, exchanges, wait for the next software update, ... or buy the next model. Meanwhile, the official statement was that this stuff only happened to a minor number of people, which as far as the CR goes. Don’t get me started with SP4, the issues are well known. Now I have spent on my SP3 close to 2000 dollars ... You know how many chargers I have bought for SP2 and SP3 has it just stopped working? How about the pogo connectors, how do they get along with the daily ware after 3 years of use?

Have a nice day.

PS: I have never said it was crap. Have I? I just enumerated issues that annoyme. Issues that for the price I think I should not have had to deal with. Now this is subjective, your mileage may vary. For instance, you may be the kind of person that updates laptops every year, or every two year. My self, I tend to pass along to my wife and kids and do use them at least for 3 years. For instance last year I passed along my SP3 to my wife, and she passes her SP2 to my 10 year old kid. He wa always complaining about the keyboard stopped working, and wireless for 3 months ... I remembered I had a MacBook Pro from 2009 in the attic, flushed it out, reset, bang, he is very happy, no problems. It is better than any 400 PC crap, Chromebook or Windows 10. That is what I expect for stuff that costs close to 2000 dollars or more. Believe me, buy a 7 year old MacBook Pro refurb in a good state for 300 dollars and do more than any low cost PC.

Yet JD Power and Associates rated it higher in customer sat than the iPad.

Apple gave out free bumpers??? Seriously. That's like a store having a problem with people tripping in the doorway and handing out bubble wrap to everyone to wrap themselves with before they go in the store!

And let me get this straight... your SP3 was riddle with issues so you gave it to your WIFE? Good luck with that.
[doublepost=1508502234][/doublepost]

Whatever!

1. How many times are you really going into Device Manager? Settings menu I understand as it's going to be a lot and most used items are now listed in there.

2. All Control Panel items are being migrated to the Settings menu, including Device Manager. In giving time.

3. I'm pretty sure I could still finger manage my way through Device Manager on the few times I needed to.

Its pointless arguing with these people. There is always an, "oh yeh, well what about this...". I think it comes from being stuck in a closed environment where they haven't had anything new or different in years. ...except for the Touch Bar, things being thinner, and ports being removed. Just ask him how its working out tweaking his hidden plists. I was listening to a guy on a podcast yesterday that has a Mac and bought a monitor that is fuzzy and the suggestion was to try changing the resolution. But oh wait, Apple has removed that option from settings, so you have to install a utility to change the screen resolution. The fact that Microsoft "lets" you still go into Device Manager for deeper diagnostics and settings is a good thing, not a bad thing. I seriously down anyone would be choosing to fiddle with that stuff when they didn't have a keyboard and mouse attached. But that isn't an option with Apple's tablet so its a big deal for them.

 

[Ethosik]

You know, I just absolutely love it when people say "Your Windows is not working - you just do not know how to use it". Seriously, that is the most ridiculous statement I have ever read. I have certifications in Windows 10, I am an IT Director, we have Windows 10 at work and I use it at home. In fact, I loved Windows 10 when it first launched that I purchased several copies for around $1,000. 1507 was great!. Then the big updates happened. I have been using Windows since Windows 95. I have only been using MacOS since Leopard. I am way more familiar with Windows than Mac. There are a few very well known issues that have happened in the past with Windows 10. This is across many forums, included in the cumulative updates as a fix for these issues, and my own personal experiences with dozens of computers.

1. Windows 10 1607 - Before the 2nd cumulative update, I was experiencing "Windows received a bad stub data. This was fixed with a cumulative update. Seriously, how can desktop and start menu shortcuts break? They have been around for a very long time. This issue occurred on dozens of desktops both home and at work. SFC and dism restore health did not fix the issue.
   https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us...a/f4829753-484e-4cf8-b123-6caf2422d17b?auth=1
   https://social.technet.microsoft.co...tub-received-bad-data?forum=win10itprogeneral
   
2. Windows 10 1607 - Before the 2nd cumulative update, I was experiencing failed Windows Updates which meant attempting to fix issue #1 was much more difficult. I had to download the cumulative update from https://www.catalog.update.microsoft.com/Home.aspx and install it manually.
3. Windows 10 1511 - Got so many blue screens on dozens of systems where 1507 worked just fine. Cumulative update for 1511 fixed it, no outdated drivers or anything were a cause. Even on identical systems in a business environment, it was a random occurrence.
4. Windows 10 Enterprise still comes with those ridiculous apps - Candy Crush, Xbox, Feedback and more. Every major update, those apps are brought back which results in a PowerShell script change on the GPO side to get it fixed.
5. Default application settings are reset to Apps every major update. I think this is fixed in 1709 or will be in a future update.
6. Windows 10 Pro has a lot of GPO settings removed that we used back in Windows 7 Pro.
7. Windows 10 1607 on three computers - running disk cleanup to remove quite a bit of space resulted in Windows becoming corrupted. One computer was able to be fixed with a dism restore health command in safe mode (which took dozens of attempts to successfully get to safe mode to begin with). Two other computers could not be fixed. Lucky one of those had an Acronis backup for the night before.

Windows 7 was the last good OS from Microsoft. When Windows 10 works, it works much better than 7. However, it is not working most of the time. NONE of the issue above were present in Windows 7. I never got a BSOD, I never got my Windows install corrupted just by doing a disk cleanup, I never got all my desktop shortcuts to fail after an update.

macOS is not immune to issues, and I have encountered some that frustrates me too. I have had WAY WAY WAY more issue with Windows 10 than I have had with macOS since Leopard.

I also do not understand people when they say "Windows is finally good". What about Windows XP or Windows 7? Those are the gold standard of what an Operating System should be. Windows 7 was just about perfect. The problem with Windows 7, just like Windows XP, is now it is too old to run on newer hardware.

So do not just say we do not know how to use Windows. Windows 10 is nice when it works. I still prefer it to Windows 7, I think the aero theme is so horrible these days I hate using a Windows 7 system. And Windows 7 basic is ugly too. There are great improvements to Windows 10 over 7 as well that I like (some actually existed since Windows 8).
[doublepost=1508505414][/doublepost]

I wish I could love this post instead of just like it. There are so many wannabe "elitists" in this thread that keep spewing utter bull-crap about windows, when the statistics speak for themselves. One of the biggest drawbacks for me was the inability to play AAA games, but not being able to play any games really. Only a select few titles are even available on mac, and even then, their GPU selections are extremely lackluster compared to windows. Can you imagine having to shell out so much extra money to get an external GPU enclosure (laughable idea), only to have reduced bandwidth, as well as have only like 5 games to choose from?

Please show me where Apple is marketing macs to be a AAA gaming platform? They just recently started talking about this with VR and eGPU. But they still aren't marketing these systems as gaming systems. Why are people treating these like gaming systems? Want to game - yes use Windows and get a GTX 1080. You know that Quadro video cards are known to be bad a gaming too right? Linus Tech Tips did test a $5,000 Quadro video card and it was just as good as a GTX 1080. But if you get a lesser quadro card, your gaming performance sucks.

I really find it shocking so many people are complaining about Mac's GPU because they cannot play their games. These are not built for gaming. They never have been. macOS is not a gaming platform. Even my 2010 Mac Pro, playing a game on macOS results in 30 fps with a GTX 980. But playing the same game on Windows 10 on the same computer, I get 90+ fps.

NVIDIA Quadro M4000 ($1,399 new https://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod...VIDIA_Quadro_M4000-_-9SIAD6H6EV0830-_-Product) vs GTX 1080 (~$550).

http://www.game-debate.com/gpu/index.php?gid=3413&gid2=1701&compare=quadro-m4000-vs-geforce-gtx-1080

These AMD cards are equivalent to the Quadro cards. More suited for professional applications than gaming.

 

[convergent]

You know, I just absolutely love it when people say "Your Windows is not working - you just do not know how to use it". Seriously, that is the most ridiculous statement I have ever read. I have certifications in Windows 10, I am an IT Director, we have Windows 10 at work and I use it at home. In fact, I loved Windows 10 when it first launched that I purchased several copies for around $1,000. 1507 was great!. Then the big updates happened. I have been using Windows since Windows 95. I have only been using MacOS since Leopard. I am way more familiar with Windows than Mac. There are a few very well known issues that have happened in the past with Windows 10. This is across many forums, included in the cumulative updates as a fix for these issues, and my own personal experiences with dozens of computers.

1. Windows 10 1607 - Before the 2nd cumulative update, I was experiencing "Windows received a bad stub data. This was fixed with a cumulative update. Seriously, how can desktop and start menu shortcuts break? They have been around for a very long time. This issue occurred on dozens of desktops both home and at work. SFC and dism restore health did not fix the issue.
   https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us...a/f4829753-484e-4cf8-b123-6caf2422d17b?auth=1
   https://social.technet.microsoft.co...tub-received-bad-data?forum=win10itprogeneral
   
2. Windows 10 1607 - Before the 2nd cumulative update, I was experiencing failed Windows Updates which meant attempting to fix issue #1 was much more difficult. I had to download the cumulative update from https://www.catalog.update.microsoft.com/Home.aspx and install it manually.
3. Windows 10 1511 - Got so many blue screens on dozens of systems where 1507 worked just fine. Cumulative update for 1511 fixed it, no outdated drivers or anything were a cause. Even on identical systems in a business environment, it was a random occurrence.
4. Windows 10 Enterprise still comes with those ridiculous apps - Candy Crush, Xbox, Feedback and more. Every major update, those apps are brought back which results in a PowerShell script change on the GPO side to get it fixed.
5. Default application settings are reset to Apps every major update. I think this is fixed in 1709 or will be in a future update.
6. Windows 10 Pro has a lot of GPO settings removed that we used back in Windows 7 Pro.
7. Windows 10 1607 on three computers - running disk cleanup to remove quite a bit of space resulted in Windows becoming corrupted. One computer was able to be fixed with a dism restore health command in safe mode (which took dozens of attempts to successfully get to safe mode to begin with). Two other computers could not be fixed. Lucky one of those had an Acronis backup for the night before.

Windows 7 was the last good OS from Microsoft. When Windows 10 works, it works much better than 7. However, it is not working most of the time. NONE of the issue above were present in Windows 7. I never got a BSOD, I never got my Windows install corrupted just by doing a disk cleanup, I never got all my desktop shortcuts to fail after an update.

macOS is not immune to issues, and I have encountered some that frustrates me too. I have had WAY WAY WAY more issue with Windows 10 than I have had with macOS since Leopard.

I also do not understand people when they say "Windows is finally good". What about Windows XP or Windows 7? Those are the gold standard of what an Operating System should be. Windows 7 was just about perfect. The problem with Windows 7, just like Windows XP, is now it is too old to run on newer hardware.

So do not just say we do not know how to use Windows. Windows 10 is nice when it works. I still prefer it to Windows 7, I think the aero theme is so horrible these days I hate using a Windows 7 system. And Windows 7 basic is ugly too. There are great improvements to Windows 10 over 7 as well that I like (some actually existed since Windows 8).
[doublepost=1508505414][/doublepost]

Please show me where Apple is marketing macs to be a AAA gaming platform? They just recently started talking about this with VR and eGPU. But they still aren't marketing these systems as gaming systems. Why are people treating these like gaming systems? Want to game - yes use Windows and get a GTX 1080. You know that Quadro video cards are known to be bad a gaming too right? Linus Tech Tips did test a $5,000 Quadro video card and it was just as good as a GTX 1080. But if you get a lesser quadro card, your gaming performance sucks.

I really find it shocking so many people are complaining about Mac's GPU because they cannot play their games. These are not built for gaming. They never have been. macOS is not a gaming platform. Even my 2010 Mac Pro, playing a game on macOS results in 30 fps with a GTX 980. But playing the same game on Windows 10 on the same computer, I get 90+ fps.

NVIDIA Quadro M4000 ($1,399 new https://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod...VIDIA_Quadro_M4000-_-9SIAD6H6EV0830-_-Product) vs GTX 1080 (~$550).

http://www.game-debate.com/gpu/index.php?gid=3413&gid2=1701&compare=quadro-m4000-vs-geforce-gtx-1080

These AMD cards are equivalent to the Quadro cards. More suited for professional applications than gaming.

It stands to reason that if you are an IT Director in a Windows shop you will run into more Windows issues than Mac issues. As both a consumer, and professional user, of MacOS and Windows 10, I have not found them to be vastly different. That is with machines on both sides that I took fresh out of the box and configured to use for work and home.

When given enterprise issued Windows machines with the "corporate image", they have been fraught with problems, in three different companies. Needing to be re-imaged to fix problems was common. I have never had to do that with any machine that I configured myself. So not to point fingers, but in my experience, IT organizations are a big part of the issue with Windows. I'm pretty positive that you won't agree.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

Yet JD Power and Associates rated it higher in customer sat than the iPad.

Apple gave out free bumpers??? Seriously. That's like a store having a problem with people tripping in the doorway and handing out bubble wrap to everyone to wrap themselves with before they go in the store!

And let me get this straight... your SP3 was riddle with issues so you gave it to your WIFE? Good luck with that.

As for the JD Power and Associates CS report last year it gave to MS. How does that obviate the CR on the same. Customer Satisfaction does not measure the degree of device problems. Granted I would not be one of them in the JDPA report. There are a myriad of factors that conFor instance, my wife as flaws, as I do, but I love her.

Yes, I don't like my wife that is why I gave her my SP3 Now more on a serious note, obviously by your remark you have also experienced those problems. My wife uses it not for work, mostly facebook, some meditation here and there, web browsing, say half an hour to a hour per day? Yes, I thought her how to reset wifi, the need to detach and reatch the keyboard. Sometimes she asks me about how to solve one or another glitch. She is fine with it, in spite of the touch not working anymore (there goes the tablet form out of the window in out case).

My take is from a person that needs a PC 10 hours a day almost every day. Personally, after the novelty passes, I find it irritating having to deal with these issues on a machine that costed me over $1700. And yes, even with this problems, believing that MS would be fixing them with updates, I also bought a second keyboard and the dock. I got the curve mouse and a second pen. All in all over $2000 invesment even bouIt got better in time, but never were 100% fixed. When the SP4 came, I though, I will hold for the reports, and than the same old problems were reported. Than came the SB one came, and saw people reporting lots of problem, including from an unofficial microsoft press member, Paul Thurrott.

Potential and looks apart, I find the kinds of issues I've found unacceptable in PCs over $1500 much less $2500.

So after all this, all I have said is ... "I hope with MS with SB 2 has ironed out all the glitches". That is all.

As for being impossible to talk with these people. Well, these people work on all platforms. We pick up what we think its best for ourselves and provide our opinion, share our experiences and so on and so forth.

As for the bumpers, yes it was a lame solution but it worked. Better than promises of the next update will be fixed and its not fixed, next updated will be fixed and its not fixed, and after 7 months finality comes an update that reduces the problem but does not solve it entirely ... than another update and the problem comes back again ... and ..... Which one would you prefer?

I think different people have different experiences, different expectations. The SB 2 looks like a very very good laptop ... will see. I'll keep waiting until the dust settles ... there will always be a SB 3, 4, 5, 6 right? So no worries.

Now I need to answer a GSM call from my MacBook Pro as the iPhone is in my jacket in the hanger, my mistake. But I have my back covered were phone, tablet and PC integration is concerned at many levels, including this. Have fun with "Your People" with the Windows 10 fall Update.

Have a nice day,

Cheers.

 

[dumastudetto]

Anyone who says "too bad it runs Windows" clearly hasn't used Windows lately.

I have tried the full Windows experience full time (and for a while) after well over a decade of using a Mac exclusively and while I would say that I definitely prefer macOS, I don't think Windows is bad. In fact, we are slowly approaching OS parity where both platforms are very stable, have awesome features and are fast and fluid.

Whatever the preference, I would not bet against Windows at this point. It's moving in the right direction and fast.

You're not a real Apple person if you think Windows is an acceptable choice. It isn't, and it never will be.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

You're not a real Apple person if you think Windows is an acceptable choice. It isn't, and it never will be.

That is not quite true, it is acceptable. Were it is acceptable on a $2000 package from a robustness and completeness of experience pov, its another matter.

 

[iMi]

You're not a real Apple person if you think Windows is an acceptable choice. It isn't, and it never will be.

I didn't realize a person could be an "Apple person."

I own and use Apple products, sure.

I also own and use Volvo, Kenmore, Eddie Bauer, Nike or Toll Brothers products. Thousands of brands. I don't walk around identifying myself as a "Kenmore" person. That would be weird. I'm a Kenmore person, you stupid Whirlpool bastards! You will never be as good as me because I'm a Kenmore person. See, weird... right?

This is a product. Not a nationality or culture. No one died to preserve our rights to use Apple products. It's just stuff. If someone has to establish his or her identity by the products they buy and feel the need to defend that identity then I believe they have lost touch with what matters in life.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

I didn't realize a person could be an "Apple person."

I own and use Apple products, sure.

I also own and use Volvo, Kenmore, Eddie Bauer, Nike or Toll Brothers products. Thousands of brands. I don't walk around identifying myself as a "Kenmore" person. That would be weird. I'm a Kenmore person, you stupid Whirlpool bastards! You will never be as good as me because I'm a Kenmore person. See, weird... right?

This is a product. Not a nationality or culture. No one died to preserve our rights to use Apple products. It's just stuff. If someone has to establish his or her identity by the products they buy and feel the need to defend that identity then I believe they have lost touch with what matters in life.

+1.

 

[iMi]

You know, I just absolutely love it when people say "Your Windows is not working - you just do not know how to use it". Seriously, that is the most ridiculous statement I have ever read. I have certifications in Windows 10, I am an IT Director, we have Windows 10 at work and I use it at home. In fact, I loved Windows 10 when it first launched that I purchased several copies for around $1,000. 1507 was great!. Then the big updates happened. I have been using Windows since Windows 95. I have only been using MacOS since Leopard. I am way more familiar with Windows than Mac. There are a few very well known issues that have happened in the past with Windows 10. This is across many forums, included in the cumulative updates as a fix for these issues, and my own personal experiences with dozens of computers.

1. Windows 10 1607 - Before the 2nd cumulative update, I was experiencing "Windows received a bad stub data. This was fixed with a cumulative update. Seriously, how can desktop and start menu shortcuts break? They have been around for a very long time. This issue occurred on dozens of desktops both home and at work. SFC and dism restore health did not fix the issue.
   https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us...a/f4829753-484e-4cf8-b123-6caf2422d17b?auth=1
   https://social.technet.microsoft.co...tub-received-bad-data?forum=win10itprogeneral
   
2. Windows 10 1607 - Before the 2nd cumulative update, I was experiencing failed Windows Updates which meant attempting to fix issue #1 was much more difficult. I had to download the cumulative update from https://www.catalog.update.microsoft.com/Home.aspx and install it manually.
3. Windows 10 1511 - Got so many blue screens on dozens of systems where 1507 worked just fine. Cumulative update for 1511 fixed it, no outdated drivers or anything were a cause. Even on identical systems in a business environment, it was a random occurrence.
4. Windows 10 Enterprise still comes with those ridiculous apps - Candy Crush, Xbox, Feedback and more. Every major update, those apps are brought back which results in a PowerShell script change on the GPO side to get it fixed.
5. Default application settings are reset to Apps every major update. I think this is fixed in 1709 or will be in a future update.
6. Windows 10 Pro has a lot of GPO settings removed that we used back in Windows 7 Pro.
7. Windows 10 1607 on three computers - running disk cleanup to remove quite a bit of space resulted in Windows becoming corrupted. One computer was able to be fixed with a dism restore health command in safe mode (which took dozens of attempts to successfully get to safe mode to begin with). Two other computers could not be fixed. Lucky one of those had an Acronis backup for the night before.

Windows 7 was the last good OS from Microsoft. When Windows 10 works, it works much better than 7. However, it is not working most of the time. NONE of the issue above were present in Windows 7. I never got a BSOD, I never got my Windows install corrupted just by doing a disk cleanup, I never got all my desktop shortcuts to fail after an update.

macOS is not immune to issues, and I have encountered some that frustrates me too. I have had WAY WAY WAY more issue with Windows 10 than I have had with macOS since Leopard.

I also do not understand people when they say "Windows is finally good". What about Windows XP or Windows 7? Those are the gold standard of what an Operating System should be. Windows 7 was just about perfect. The problem with Windows 7, just like Windows XP, is now it is too old to run on newer hardware.

So do not just say we do not know how to use Windows. Windows 10 is nice when it works. I still prefer it to Windows 7, I think the aero theme is so horrible these days I hate using a Windows 7 system. And Windows 7 basic is ugly too. There are great improvements to Windows 10 over 7 as well that I like (some actually existed since Windows 8).
[doublepost=1508505414][/doublepost]

Please show me where Apple is marketing macs to be a AAA gaming platform? They just recently started talking about this with VR and eGPU. But they still aren't marketing these systems as gaming systems. Why are people treating these like gaming systems? Want to game - yes use Windows and get a GTX 1080. You know that Quadro video cards are known to be bad a gaming too right? Linus Tech Tips did test a $5,000 Quadro video card and it was just as good as a GTX 1080. But if you get a lesser quadro card, your gaming performance sucks.

I really find it shocking so many people are complaining about Mac's GPU because they cannot play their games. These are not built for gaming. They never have been. macOS is not a gaming platform. Even my 2010 Mac Pro, playing a game on macOS results in 30 fps with a GTX 980. But playing the same game on Windows 10 on the same computer, I get 90+ fps.

NVIDIA Quadro M4000 ($1,399 new https://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod...VIDIA_Quadro_M4000-_-9SIAD6H6EV0830-_-Product) vs GTX 1080 (~$550).

http://www.game-debate.com/gpu/index.php?gid=3413&gid2=1701&compare=quadro-m4000-vs-geforce-gtx-1080

These AMD cards are equivalent to the Quadro cards. More suited for professional applications than gaming.

Very informative.

I agree about the gaming. I personally love Xbox and have a PC dedicated to Oculus and gaming as well. The Mac is not the place to game... yet. It could change, but definitely not a destination for gaming today. Although I do run Civ 6 on the latest iMac (580) and it runs super smooth on ultra settings.

 

[dumastudetto]

I didn't realize a person could be an "Apple person."

I own and use Apple products, sure.

I also own and use Volvo, Kenmore, Eddie Bauer, Nike or Toll Brothers products. Thousands of brands. I don't walk around identifying myself as a "Kenmore" person. That would be weird. I'm a Kenmore person, you stupid Whirlpool bastards! You will never be as good as me because I'm a Kenmore person. See, weird... right?

This is a product. Not a nationality or culture. No one died to preserve our rights to use Apple products. It's just stuff. If someone has to establish his or her identity by the products they buy and feel the need to defend that identity then I believe they have lost touch with what matters in life.

Like I said, you don't get Apple.

Us Apple people have long regarded ourselves as being part of a family. Just Google for posts "I've joined the Apple family" for a free lesson.

I have no problem with people who are happy to make huge compromises to put up with Windows, but those of us in the Apple family will never ever consider Windows an acceptable choice.

 

[Regime2008]

Please show me where Apple is marketing macs to be a AAA gaming platform? They just recently started talking about this with VR and eGPU. But they still aren't marketing these systems as gaming systems. Why are people treating these like gaming systems? Want to game - yes use Windows and get a GTX 1080. You know that Quadro video cards are known to be bad a gaming too right? Linus Tech Tips did test a $5,000 Quadro video card and it was just as good as a GTX 1080. But if you get a lesser quadro card, your gaming performance sucks.

I really find it shocking so many people are complaining about Mac's GPU because they cannot play their games. These are not built for gaming. They never have been. macOS is not a gaming platform. Even my 2010 Mac Pro, playing a game on macOS results in 30 fps with a GTX 980. But playing the same game on Windows 10 on the same computer, I get 90+ fps.

NVIDIA Quadro M4000 ($1,399 new https://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod...VIDIA_Quadro_M4000-_-9SIAD6H6EV0830-_-Product) vs GTX 1080 (~$550).

http://www.game-debate.com/gpu/index.php?gid=3413&gid2=1701&compare=quadro-m4000-vs-geforce-gtx-1080

These AMD cards are equivalent to the Quadro cards. More suited for professional applications than gaming.

....which is why I said it is the biggest drawback for me, hence why I don't use it.... My whole point was, I can get all of my work done, on a faster machine, for a cheaper price, and still be able to play games. It wouldn't make sense for me to spend much more, to get much less.

 

[dumastudetto]

That is not quite true, it is acceptable. Were it is acceptable on a $2000 package from a robustness and completeness of experience pov, its another matter.

Yes the pricing of these products from Microsoft is even more crazy. You are not getting premium hardware, premium software, premium experience, premium anything. But you are paying a huge premium for that Surface Book. They want to charge Apple prices without delivering any of the things that create true value for customers.

The same goes for Google. The Pixel phones are hugely overpriced and flawed in almost every way. The display on the new XL 2 is grotesque and they are charging Apple prices for it. Google doesn't understand that Apple customers would return that junk in a heartbeat if they had a display that looked dirty or blue/red/green color banding issues. If you want to charge premium prices, you have to deliver a premium device and a premium experience.

 

[iMi]

Like I said, you don't get Apple.

Us Apple people have long regarded ourselves as being part of a family. Just Google for posts "I've joined the Apple family" for a free lesson.

I have no problem with people who are happy to make huge compromises to put up with Windows, but those of us in the Apple family will never ever consider Windows an acceptable choice.

I've used Apple computers almost exclusively for the past 15 years. I get Apple. I don't get you.

 

[skaertus]

I didn't realize a person could be an "Apple person."

I own and use Apple products, sure.

I also own and use Volvo, Kenmore, Eddie Bauer, Nike or Toll Brothers products. Thousands of brands. I don't walk around identifying myself as a "Kenmore" person. That would be weird. I'm a Kenmore person, you stupid Whirlpool bastards! You will never be as good as me because I'm a Kenmore person. See, weird... right?

This is a product. Not a nationality or culture. No one died to preserve our rights to use Apple products. It's just stuff. If someone has to establish his or her identity by the products they buy and feel the need to defend that identity then I believe they have lost touch with what matters in life.

Great post! I can’t agree more.

 

[skaertus]

Like I said, you don't get Apple.

Us Apple people have long regarded ourselves as being part of a family. Just Google for posts "I've joined the Apple family" for a free lesson.

I have no problem with people who are happy to make huge compromises to put up with Windows, but those of us in the Apple family will never ever consider Windows an acceptable choice.

Apple family?

Should I assume then Apple pays your rent, and your meals?

Please, there is no such a thing. This is a product. If people keeps making this personal, then there will be little competition, since nobody will ever accept Windows as an alternative to a Mac.

And if Windows is not a threat and people will remain faithful until the end, Apple will have little incentive to invest in the Mac and will still charge loads of money for its products.

If you want to make things personal, we might say that you may love Apple, but Apple certainly does not love you, it just wants your money. See?

 

[Regime2008]

I didn't realize a person could be an "Apple person."

I own and use Apple products, sure.

I also own and use Volvo, Kenmore, Eddie Bauer, Nike or Toll Brothers products. Thousands of brands. I don't walk around identifying myself as a "Kenmore" person. That would be weird. I'm a Kenmore person, you stupid Whirlpool bastards! You will never be as good as me because I'm a Kenmore person. See, weird... right?

This is a product. Not a nationality or culture. No one died to preserve our rights to use Apple products. It's just stuff. If someone has to establish his or her identity by the products they buy and feel the need to defend that identity then I believe they have lost touch with what matters in life.

You are my hero! I can't stand brand loyalist's. When people are that loyal to a company, they end up getting locked into spending money with that company exclusively, and become blind to facts and reality. I just go with my best options for the money.

Like I said, you don't get Apple.

Us Apple people have long regarded ourselves as being part of a family. Just Google for posts "I've joined the Apple family" for a free lesson.

I have no problem with people who are happy to make huge compromises to put up with Windows, but those of us in the Apple family will never ever consider Windows an acceptable choice.

I never made any compromises with Windows, and many will feel the same way. If I spent money with Apple, it would be a huge compromise for me, because of MY needs and what I would be missing out on. I need something flexible for work, and I need something powerful for gaming. Spend 2k on a PC build, or 5k on an Apple comparable.....wait a second, they don't offer one!

 

[greenmeanie]

You act as if this never happens with MacOS and Apple products?
Please stop already.

MS is saying exactly today about the new models as it said about the previous ones. Look problems may exist in any product, some companies fix it other ask you to buy a new model to fix it.

As for the comparison .., Apple quite often in rhetoric overstates they achievements as MS does. At the center of Marketing it’s overstatment, its ridiculous I know. On “you are holding it wrong” that was not definitely the best of Apple. But they did turn around and offer bumper to solve the problem (I had no such problem but I saw other having it).

What did MS for the issue of detaching and reattaching the keyboard when it stopped working as it happened often in SP2 and SP3, and was also expericed in SP4? Flood you with fixing procedures to try your self, exchanges, wait for the next software update, ... or buy the next model. Meanwhile, the official statement was that this stuff only happened to a minor number of people, which as far as the CR goes. Don’t get me started with SP4, the issues are well known. Now I have spent on my SP3 close to 2000 dollars ... You know how many chargers I have bought for SP2 and SP3 has it just stopped working? How about the pogo connectors, how do they get along with the daily ware after 3 years of use?

Have a nice day.

PS: I have never said it was crap. Have I? I just enumerated issues that annoyme. Issues that for the price I think I should not have had to deal with. Now this is subjective, your mileage may vary. For instance, you may be the kind of person that updates laptops every year, or every two year. My self, I tend to pass along to my wife and kids and do use them at least for 3 years. For instance last year I passed along my SP3 to my wife, and she passes her SP2 to my 10 year old kid. He wa always complaining about the keyboard stopped working, and wireless for 3 months ... I remembered I had a MacBook Pro from 2009 in the attic, flushed it out, reset, bang, he is very happy, no problems. It is better than any 400 PC crap, Chromebook or Windows 10. That is what I expect for stuff that costs close to 2000 dollars or more. Believe me, buy a 7 year old MacBook Pro refurb in a good state for 300 dollars and do more than any low cost PC.

 

[dumastudetto]

Apple family?

Should I assume then Apple pays your rent, and your meals?

Please, there is no such a thing. This is a product. If people keeps making this personal, then there will be little competition, since nobody will ever accept Windows as an alternative to a Mac.

And if Windows is not a threat and people will remain faithful until the end, Apple will have little incentive to invest in the Mac and will still charge loads of money for its products.

If you want to make things personal, we might say that you may love Apple, but Apple certainly does not love you, it just wants your money. See?

My family doesn't pay for my rent, my bills, my meals, anything.

I will concede the "I've joined the Apple family..." is much less common place now than it used to be. But those of us who have been around Apple for a long time will surely remember when people who bought their first Apple product would declare proudly that they had joined the Apple family.

Apple loves its customers. It is why they have an obsession with providing world class customer care and service. It is why their staff will go out of their way to make you happy. Be it a refund, an immediate replacement for a faulty one, and sometimes even free updates to newer technology when your old device fails. They want to make us happy, and they do, and that is why we keep coming back for more.

Of course money is an important motivator for Apple. But I think the biggest thing for Apple is making the very best products and delighting all of us customers. They are proud to be the best, and they are determined to remain on that pedestal.

 

[greenmeanie]

You don't need a Macbook pro for that either.

Had issues with previous Surfaces. Bought a Macbook Pro 2015 15" and never looked back. Don't know what Microsoft has to offer, but you don't need a $3000 facebook machine with i9 and 64gb

[doublepost=1508511352][/doublepost]I beg to differ.
Apple hasn't rolled out anything without problems in years.
Please stop being a Apple shill.

My family doesn't pay for my rent, my bills, my meals, anything.

I will concede the "I've joined the Apple family..." is much less common place now than it used to be. But those of us who have been around Apple for a long time will surely remember when people who bought their first Apple product would declare that they had joined the Apple family.

Apple loves its customers. It is why they have an obsession with providing world class customer care and service. It is why their staff will go out of their way to make you happy. Be it a refund, an immediate replacement for a faulty one, and sometimes even free updates to newer technology when your old device fails. They want to make us happy, and they do, and that is why we keep coming back for more.

Of course money is an important motivator for Apple. But I think the biggest thing for Apple is making the very best products and delighting all of us customers. They are proud to be the best, and they are determined to remain on that pedestal.

 

[Ethosik]

It stands to reason that if you are an IT Director in a Windows shop you will run into more Windows issues than Mac issues. As both a consumer, and professional user, of MacOS and Windows 10, I have not found them to be vastly different. That is with machines on both sides that I took fresh out of the box and configured to use for work and home.

When given enterprise issued Windows machines with the "corporate image", they have been fraught with problems, in three different companies. Needing to be re-imaged to fix problems was common. I have never had to do that with any machine that I configured myself. So not to point fingers, but in my experience, IT organizations are a big part of the issue with Windows. I'm pretty positive that you won't agree.

Yet my issues with Windows 7 were very very few. I have had very very very few issues with my Windows 7 installs. I have had nothing but problems with my Windows 10 installs as mentioned in my post.

Windows 7 never BSOD on me. Windows 7 never broke all desktop and start menu shortcuts. Windows 7 never broke itself after a disk cleanup. Yet I have experienced these issues on Windows 10 across dozens of systems even at home. I loved Windows 7. Windows 10 is pretty buggy.

And not everyone will experience these issues. How is it right to complain that High Sierra is buggy but not Windows 10? How is it that I have not experienced any major bugs from Leopard to Sierra and other people have?

In my experience, Windows 10 is a lot less stable than Windows 7. Your experience might be different. You could have had horrible experiences with Windows 7 even though it is generally treated as the best or second best next to XP.

[doublepost=1508512532][/doublepost]

....which is why I said it is the biggest drawback for me, hence why I don't use it.... My whole point was, I can get all of my work done, on a faster machine, for a cheaper price, and still be able to play games. It wouldn't make sense for me to spend much more, to get much less.

Yes, that is understandable. I was mostly targeting the people that state "Apple has crappy GPUs" or "At least this one has a decent GPU". And their argument is about gaming. Really?

I agree. If I want a gaming computer, I would look at a Windows PC. If I need to help someone pick out a computer and they said they want to game, I would recommend Windows PC over a mac. You buy what you need.
[doublepost=1508512919][/doublepost]

Financial services backends (i.e where the important stuff happens) don't run on Windows and have never done so. They instead tend to run on Linux, AIX (IBM's mainframe OS) or some old mainframe OS (if they're one of the many big corporations that are still using systems they set up in the 70s and 80s due to the cost and risk of replacing them).

Don't get me wrong, most big companies run Windows on the desktop due to a long list of reasons, but systems that are business critical and/or require high performance to be able to perform their duties tend to run on operating systems better suited for that kind of work.

And actually if you include servers, Linux is the most popular.
[doublepost=1508513374][/doublepost]

You mean that in a couple of years the MBP line will have a GPU thats of comparable strength to the one in the Surface Book now?

.... for specific use cases like gaming. These are NOT gaming systems. Try comparing a $1,350 NVIDIA Quadro to a $500 GTX 1080 and see that it is only 80% as powerful as the GTX 1080 in gaming.

These AMD cards are better than NVIDIA for what I use. Do not assume everyone plays games on their mac and needs NVIDIA 1080s for it. Or uses software that only can run on CUDA.

 

[convergent]

Like I said, you don't get Apple.

Us Apple people have long regarded ourselves as being part of a family. Just Google for posts "I've joined the Apple family" for a free lesson.

I have no problem with people who are happy to make huge compromises to put up with Windows, but those of us in the Apple family will never ever consider Windows an acceptable choice.

Oh my... you are EXACTLY what the new Apple is shooting for. Mind numb consumers that will take whatever they push out at top dollar, and smile while you are doing it. When Jobs was there, you at least had someone with vision that was telling you what you could buy. Now you have a gaggle of folks trying to see who will be the biggest baffoon, each trying to dictate sometimes stupid ideas to you in the name of courage, while their leader is off making political arguments. If you want to be part of that family, then go for it.

I, on the other hand, am a normal person... not an Apple person. I've bought and own many Apple products, as well as Microsoft, Amazon, Google, Dell, IBM, HP, Samsung, Lenovo, Acer, Asus, and pretty much any other large tech company. These companies serve me and my needs, and I buy what works for me. I don't buy something because I'm part of a "family".

Your membership in the Apple "family" lasts precisely as long as you pay them for their products and services. Waltz into an Apple store with some older product like the Thunderbolt Display (that I paid big bucks for), and you'll find out about "family".

Apple has made some great products over the years. They still do. But I happy to not be part of the "Apple family".

 

[Nuno Lopes]

You act as if this never happens with MacOS and Apple products?
Please stop already.

No. I don’t act like it never happens. It does. But in my experience and others that I know off, it happens in such less degree that justifies the cost. I had my fare share of problems but the only time I had to return a product in 8 years was once (screen bleeding). They gave me another one right away, it an iPad 3. I also had memory problems with a MacBook Pro,a 2009 model, gladely it was o e of those that we had easy access to memory and bought an afternarket set of 16GB.

So we come to one of the issues I have with Apple amongst others, I really dislike the fact that user can’t easily upgrade either RAM or Storage. I also think the price bump the MacBook Pro had it’s hardly justifiable considering that iPad Pro is not yet prepared from an user experience point of view to replace a laptop at a professional level IMHO. I also feel that the company even though it has more money than ever did, it is nnovating less than it ever did, taking less risks ... That comes down to the kind of CEO Tim is I guess. Maybe now that they have the silly spaceship they will be able to either focus on what it’s important or fly over to mars. It’s their call.

I am not part of the Apple family gladely.

Cheers.