Microsoft Says Windows PC Makers Seeing 'Continued Growth' in Premium Market Led by Apple

[darkandlong]

That's largely the fault of Intel, since the notebook-class CPU chipsets do not support the low-power RAM in configurations above 16GB. Apple could have used desktop-class chipsets and RAM, but then battery life (already criticized) would have taken a hit. The rumor is that Apple might release one 32GB configuration later this year.

That said, even most "pros" don't need more than 16GB. It's mainly useful when doing hard core video editing or multiple virtual machines. With fast SSDs paging is far less noticeable than it used to be.

Which 'pros' don't need more than 16gb of RAM?

Anyone working with video or fx does.
Anyone working with large PSDs or high-resolution photos in Lightroom's does.
Anyone working with audio does.
Any developer running multiple VMs does.

This whole line is complete bs. When people talk about pros they don't mean an office manager who uses his MBP to run PowerPoint.

 

[robeddie]

But I don't really understand why, particularly after Apple dropped the price of the adapters. Sure, they could have thrown one in (and am surprised they didn't, given that they anticipated mostly non-existent outrage over dropping the headphone jack on the iPhone 7), but it's not like most people will need more than one or two of them.

IMO if they had kept the MagSafe, but included the same number of usbC ports, they would have been much better off. I get it, usbC can charge the computer, but at the end of the day having one extra port would have been so much more 'user friendly' and a nice nod to the great invention that was MagSafe. Instead, they throw the baby out with the bathwater. I now look at MS laptops with magnetic charging and envy them. Such a shame Apple decided to throw away such a brilliant invention.

 

[BeforeTheMeds]

Apple is going to have to start releasing 10 year old technology before I even consider going back to Windows.. .

Apple has certainly found the customer base they are looking for. The ones that would buy a turd in a white box with a fruit picture on it.

That being said, its your money.

 

[robeddie]

That's largely the fault of Intel, since the notebook-class CPU chipsets do not support the low-power RAM in configurations above 16GB. Apple could have used desktop-class chipsets and RAM, but then battery life (already criticized) would have taken a hit. The rumor is that Apple might release one 32GB configuration later this year.

That said, even most "pros" don't need more than 16GB. It's mainly useful when doing hard core video editing or multiple virtual machines. With fast SSDs paging is far less noticeable than it used to be.

Apple only got criticism for their battery life because they insisted on making the new laptops unnecessarily thin, thereby forcing the batteries to be smaller than ideal. Had they made a version that was a couple mm thicker, with a full 99mw battery (as the previous 15 inch models had) ... they would have avoided all the discussion of battery life. All they would have had to say at that point ... 'don't like the battery life of the 15 inch midlevel model, get the MAX model".

End of story.

 

[ericwn]

How about Apple releasing new laptops that aren't just slightly thinner versions of last year's models?

Check out the new MacBook Pro then!

 

[darkandlong]

Apple is going to have to start releasing 10 year old technology before I even consider going back to Windows.. and then it will likely be Linux, not Windows.

As for the surface tablet, Windows is a horrible touch GUI even with HiDPI displays. Try poking that little close button in the top left without hitting the minimize or maximize buttons instead... unless you enjoy using a stylus for everything. My surface lasted about 3 months before I sold it off.

You are exactly Apple's target demographic. You'll buy whatever outmoded **** they'll sell you and you'll do it with a big smile on your face.

 

[2IS]

I'm a cross-platform user, and at this point the only reason I'm not on Windows exclusively is because imessage/txt message forwarding is quite handy.

 

[Apple 26.2]

That's not my experience with Office 2013, which is what we use at the office.
[doublepost=1485543523][/doublepost]
The Griffin Breaksafe eases that a bit. I'm surprised Apple didn't introduce a similar cable of its own (or endorse a third party product like it did with the LG monitors).

I agree, of course, but shouldn't a $2400+ Apple-quality device have that built-in capability?

 

[KPOM]

Which 'pros' don't need more than 16gb of RAM?

Anyone working with video or fx does.
Anyone working with large PSDs or high-resolution photos in Lightroom's does.
Anyone working with audio does.
Any developer running multiple VMs does.

This whole line is complete bs. When people talk about pros they don't mean an office manager who uses his MBP to run PowerPoint.

That's not the only customer for the MacBook Pro. It's a mainstream product. Apple has never made a notebook with 32GB or 64GB of RAM in the past. I didn't hear the level of complaints about the 2015 MacBook Pro.

 

[tech4all]

blah blah since 10+ years...
Sure, Apple´s lineup is ridiculous at the moment, but I used a Surface - and it sucked more than anything.

Why?

Apple is going to have to start releasing 10 year old technology before I even consider going back to Windows.. and then it will likely be Linux, not Windows.

As for the surface tablet, Windows is a horrible touch GUI even with HiDPI displays. Try poking that little close button in the top left without hitting the minimize or maximize buttons instead... unless you enjoy using a stylus for everything. My surface lasted about 3 months before I sold it off.

That may happen sooner than you think.

 

[MH01]

Meanwhile my daughter's $1200 HP Spectre X2 continues to have issues thanks to the Win10 Anniversary Update that destroyed support for PCs with SSDs for some reason.

Fortunately I managed to get it working (as in booting up and running for about an hour at a time) and my daughter followed my emailed steps to update the SSD Drivers with something from Intel and it is actually usable for slightly longer than an hour now.

If Apple had released a macOS Sierra update that bricked MacBooks/MacBook Airs/MacBook Pros with SSDs and never bothered to actually, you know fix their OS after 6 months, there would be so many lawsuits Apple would transition to becoming solely a law firm to deal with it all.

But hey its Microsoft and PCs and business as usual and yay they are growing in the "premium" space by suckers who keep getting their crappy touch screen laptop/tablet combos identity-confused products that barely work as advertised and are one official OS update away from becoming very expensive paper weights.

My 2012 rMBP had severe wifi issues for 18 months , had to use it wired. Maybe I was an apple sucker.... and three wasted visits to Genius Bar it's all fine. They finally fixed it .

I'm not seeing much of a difference between macOS and windows 10 in terms of being stable . Win probably has the edge

 

[PalidinoDH]

I've been a Mac user for over 10 years because they were awesome.
The MBP is proving Apple is running for profit and not innovation.
Here's some key differences between SurfaceBook and MBP:

• SB - 16 hours of battery life. MBP - 10 hour. In reality, SB is a little less with pro usage, but MBP is only about 2 to 3 hours. Pathetic.
• SB - Has magsafe like connector for safety. MBP - got rid of Magsafe, one of the best inventions ever. This is ridiculous.
• SB - Has touchscreen. Once you use it you never go back. MBP - no touch screen, but has touch bar, that once you use it, you tend to avoid it.
• SB - Has detachable screen, where when detached, the OS changes into a tablet mode making it great for simple things like games, email, and browsing. MBP - can't detach screen, so if you wan't a tablet, it need to buy an expensive iPad. Obvious money grab.
• SB - Has the option for Nvidia GPU, which is great for CUDA developement, which I do. MBP - does not offer this option. So stuck with non CUDA development.

Please let me know if I'm being over critical, but please justify you reasoning. Remember, I was a hard core Mac lover, and Apple makes more money than anyone, so there's no reason that Apple should be 4 years behind the competition. Tim Cook may be fantastic at organizing production, but he would be fired if Steve Job's came back to life for what he has done to the company. Yes, the stock is good, but that cause the company is running for profit. It won't last.

My 2016 MBP battery is fine and gets 8-10 hours.
Magsafe was actually a huge annoyance using it in bed at night for me.
I had a Surface Pro 3 and Lenovo Yoga (first and second versions) and rarely touched the screen, but then I mostly just program. I can't speak on the surface book keyboard, but the surface pro keyboard is a joke.
I have an iPad I never use. Would detaching the screen be fun? Definitely, but I don't need it.
Apple definitely lacks when it comes to GPU options which is annoying.

 

[GhostRaider]

Writing on the Surface tablet blows me away all the time. And the fact that you are running full Windows too really is a no brainer. Apple has nothing that competes with that. iPad is a toy.

 

[KPOM]

IMO if they had kept the MagSafe, but included the same number of usbC ports, they would have been much better off. I get it, usbC can charge the computer, but at the end of the day having one extra port would have been so much more 'user friendly' and a nice nod to the great invention that was MagSafe. Instead, they throw the baby out with the bathwater. I now look at MS laptops with magnetic charging and envy them. Such a shame Apple decided to throw away such a brilliant invention.

But USB-C also supports pass-through charging. Keeping a separate MagSafe port would have reinforced the notion that charging is a "separate" function and only ancillary to USB-C. I am surprised they didn't introduce a new cable like the Griffin BreakSafe. I'm not surprised they dropped the separate MagSafe port. That writing was on the wall since the 12" MacBook came out. Since charging a notebook isn't "pro" or "consumer" I figured the MacBook Pro would get USB-C charging. But I also thought that they might use it as an opportunity to say that their experience with the MacBook informed them that people really liked MagSafe and that they had found a way to deliver it through USB-C.

4 TB3 ports are plenty, particularly since multi-port USB-C adapters and hubs abound these days.

 

[davidwes]

I would replace confusion with ignorance. It is clearly a very different experience any way you look at it - and some people (like yourselves) will be completely fine with it and that's fine, but to act "confused" as to why others may not be okay with it is just plain ignorance or stupidityy (more likely purposeful ignorance to be pro-Apple I presume), sorry.

(NB I am fully aware that kildraik is feigning ignorance only to drive his/her opinion and/or exercising the pro-Apple brigade and may just be an Apple troll, but I'll bite)

I'm sorry. I think its confusion. I really don't understand.

For instance, I'm typing this on my macbook air with physical keys. But when at a coffee shop, i have type emails by laying down the ipad and typing regularly. I didn't notice a slow down in typing speed with a digital keyboard (it did suck that half the screen is taken up by the keyboard, but that is a very different complaint).

So PLEASE help me figure out why a physical key is so different then a digital one. AND when talking about the esc key its even stranger since its always the left most place - so you don't even have to look for it.

 

[brendu]

Apple should make a Mac tablet.

No. They shouldn't. They should make the Mac as good as they can and they should make the iPad as good as they can. Get me Pro level software on the iPad. I don't want to make everything in Mac OS jumbo so it responds properly to touch input.
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Which 'pros' don't need more than 16gb of RAM?

Anyone working with video or fx does.
Anyone working with large PSDs or high-resolution photos in Lightroom's does.
Anyone working with audio does.
Any developer running multiple VMs does.

This whole line is complete bs. When people talk about pros they don't mean an office manager who uses his MBP to run PowerPoint.

No. When people refer to "pros" they usually mean people who earn a living using their computer. Lawyers, journalists, freelance web developers, musicians, graphic designer, teachers, accountants, and many other professions count as "Pro" users who would never make use of 32GB ram.

 

[sracer]

I've been a Mac user for over 10 years because they were awesome.
The MBP is proving Apple is running for profit and not innovation.
Here's some key differences between SurfaceBook and MBP:

• SB - 16 hours of battery life. MBP - 10 hour. In reality, SB is a little less with pro usage, but MBP is only about 2 to 3 hours. Pathetic.
• SB - Has magsafe like connector for safety. MBP - got rid of Magsafe, one of the best inventions ever. This is ridiculous.
• SB - Has touchscreen. Once you use it you never go back. MBP - no touch screen, but has touch bar, that once you use it, you tend to avoid it.
• SB - Has detachable screen, where when detached, the OS changes into a tablet mode making it great for simple things like games, email, and browsing. MBP - can't detach screen, so if you wan't a tablet, it need to buy an expensive iPad. Obvious money grab.
• SB - Has the option for Nvidia GPU, which is great for CUDA developement, which I do. MBP - does not offer this option. So stuck with non CUDA development.

Please let me know if I'm being over critical, but please justify you reasoning. Remember, I was a hard core Mac lover, and Apple makes more money than anyone, so there's no reason that Apple should be 4 years behind the competition. Tim Cook may be fantastic at organizing production, but he would be fired if Steve Job's came back to life for what he has done to the company. Yes, the stock is good, but that cause the company is running for profit. It won't last.

Defining "overly critical" is highly subjective.

But a few of the things you point to as "benefits" of the SB are not universally beneficial...

Touchscreen. I own plenty of touchscreen devices... notebooks, hybrids, tablets. When working with desktop apps in Windows, using a a touchscreen is NOT preferred over using a mouse, trackpoint, or trackpad. Not only are the touch targets small, but your finger blocks your view of what your touching. Nor do you have the precision that you have with a traditional pointing device.

Detachable screen. The SB's ability to convert into tablet mode is still hit-or-miss and is highly dependent upon what app you're working on. Because Microsoft badly stumbled with the whole Modern UI app framework, what was an "app gap" has turned into an "app canyon". There is still a pitiful quantity of quality touch-optimized Modern UI apps. That directly impacts the user experience of using the SB as a tablet.

Then there is Windows 10 itself which is worthy of a thread all to its own.

The SB is an extremely nice ultrabook that makes a some-what poor tablet.

I'm sorry. I think its confusion. I really don't understand.

For instance, I'm typing this on my macbook air with physical keys. But when at a coffee shop, i have type emails by laying down the ipad and typing regularly. I didn't notice a slow down in typing speed with a digital keyboard (it did suck that half the screen is taken up by the keyboard, but that is a very different complaint).

So PLEASE help me figure out why a physical key is so different then a digital one. AND when talking about the esc key its even stranger since its always the left most place - so you don't even have to look for it.

If you are a hunt and peck 10 words per minute typist, then, yes using the onscreen keyboard won't slow you down.

 

[manu chao]

So you are agreeing with me? what do you mean by sorry, you agreed? I said thinner does not mean a fresh laptop and you agree with me by saying a touch screen would mean that. You seem to be arguing with yourself.

My point was that a touch screen (with first requires making macOS touch-enabled) makes significantly different case designs possible. But without that, you largely are limited to upgrading components.

Most people do not even notice a couple of mm's thinner, that certainly does not mean a fresh design by any stretch. Touch screen, absolutely.

Most people misunderstand thinness. The goal is not thinness, the goal is lower weight, which you can generally only achieve by reducing the case volume (outside of radical changes like different materials). And with the screen size defining two dimensions, reducing the volume means reducing the thickness.

Thinness is visually appealing but it is also a visual indicator for a lighter device.

 

[darkandlong]

No. They shouldn't. They should make the Mac as good as they can and they should make the iPad as good as they can. Get me Pro level software on the iPad. I don't want to make everything in Mac OS jumbo so it responds properly to touch input.
[doublepost=1485547660][/doublepost]


No. When people refer to "pros" they usually mean people who earn a living using their computer. Lawyers, journalists, freelance web developers, musicians, graphic designer, teachers, accountants, and many other professions count as "Pro" users who would never make use of 32GB ram.

... Clowns,
Pig farmers,
Tug boat captains

Your list is absolutely meaningless.

 

[manu chao]

That is LAST YEAR'S MODEL. This is the new one that trumps the MBP:
http://store.hp.com/us/en/pdp/Laptops/hp-spectre-x360---15-bl075nr-z4z37ua-aba

I googled the model name provided by you (HP Spectre x360 15t). As your link shows, the model name for this year's model appears to be "HP Spectre x360 15-bl075nr".

It is still is a MBA class (15-W TDP) dual-core chip vs the quad-core (45-W TDP) chips of the 15" MBP. It also has only one TB3 port instead of four. I cannot find whether it can power a 5K external monitor, let alone two. And in regard to weight and size it is much closer to the previous 2012-2015 15" MBP than to the 2016 15" MBP:

2015 15" MBP: 2.04 kg, 18 mm
x360 15-bl075nr: 2.00 kg, 17.8 mm
2016 15" MBP: 1.83 kg, 15.5 mm

I am not saying that it is not a great laptop or that Apple isn't generally more expensive. Just that when putting two prices next to each other, those differences should be mentioned. I think the key problem with Apple is that it only offers one 15" MBP (conceptually it at least offered one with and one without discrete GPU before which were $500 apart). Thus people happy with a 15-W TDP dual-core CPU in their 15" laptop cannot get that from Apple and have to pay for the quad-core CPU. And this works in the other direction as well, as those wanting a laptop with 32 GB of RAM (accepting battery life and weight trade-offs), cannot get one from Apple.

But this problem has existed with Apple almost forever. What might have changed is that Macs don't have that aura of uniqueness or whatever you want to call it (eg, unibody aluminium frame, retina display, MagSafe) anymore or at least to a lesser degree.

 

[El Hikaru]

I bought the new 13 inch MBP with touch bar.
Contrary to general reception, I love the machine.

I checked the Surface Book, but that thing even does not even shut well due to detachable hinge.
The Detachable Screen has vent on the side and bulky.
The 128GB model cost $1,499.

I have not encountered much of things that people complain.
Keyboard is shallow and has distinctive mechanical clicking feel. It was easy getting used to.
USB C ports were something new. I had to buy adapters. My plan is to buy only USB C peripherals going forward.
Gigabytes of files fly around in the storage. That SSD is fast. Faster than NVMe SSDs out there.
It is light. Especially if you compared to the 2012 model with a mechanical hard drive.
I am an office worker. Mobility is more valuable than single charge capacity. I tried playing bioshock infinite to test the battery life. It lasted about an hour. I was rather impressed by its heat sink capability under heavy lifting.
It was expensive but I had some saving in my piggy bank. Not an issue.

 

[vmachiel]

Won't happen.

Not with that attitude.

 

[bladerunner2000]

Not with that attitude.

Doesn't matter. Apple doesn't care about consumers' wants or demands. if that was the case, they would sell you a 4 years Mac Pro still at it's original price or a desktop iMac with dated mobile GPUs.

I voted with my wallet and built a Hackintosh and sold my Mac Pro.

 

[Ludatyk]

I bought the new 13 inch MBP with touch bar.
Contrary to general reception, I love the machine.

Same here.

I enjoy using the Touchbar... I've made more use of it with BetterTouchTool and it's been really awesome! I've played with some compatible Touchbar apps... and it's been somewhat interesting. I didn't buy the new MBP for the touch bar, I bought it for the premium of buying into Apple... the touch bar is just an added bonus.

 

[drumcat]

Imagine a Surface hardware setup running macOS. How flippin' sweet would that be?