Nokia Increases Scope of Patent Complaints to Include 'Virtually All' Apple Products

[mdriftmeyer]

You really do sound like a brainless fanboy

Isn't clear to you that this isn't about money, Nokia could have set a price per iPhone to charge Apple, instead they said they will let the courts decide the amount to be paid. Nokia still operate at a 20+ BILLION revenue in comparison to Apple, who are in a lot more markets than Nokia

If you can't see thefacts of this discussion you shouldn't even be involved

http://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:NOK

Take a long hard look at The Net Profit margins for Nokia.

-9.31%

It's P/E ratio: 63.63.
EPS: $.20
Shares outstanding: 3.71 Billion

Now take at look at Apple's Net Profit margins.

http://www.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ:AAPL

+16.87%

It's P/E ratio: 33.26.
EPS: $6.29
Shares outstanding: 900.68 Million

Nokia's stock is just under $13/share.

Nokia return on assets/equity (2009) vs (2008)
Return on average assets -10.08% 10.08%
Return on average equity -18.01% 27.52%

This isn't a healthy company. It's dying and this is a last ditch effort to infuse it's Bank Lenders confidence.

 

[aegisdesign]

Let's look at Nokia's recent ventures:

Comes With Music - FAIL
Ovi App Store - YAWN
Ovi - YAWN
N97 - YAWN

No wonder why they are jealous and looking to sue.

Ovi App Store has been improving gradually. Apple's App store is of course perfect.

Ovi (which bit do you mean) ?

The free Ovi Maps app that lets you download entire maps of countries to your phone so you don't incur data charges?

Or Ovi Mail, their free GMail-like service?

Or Ovi Files, their free BacktoMyMac/DropBox service?

Or Ovi Share, their free photosharing service?

Or Ovi Calendar, their free iCal service that syncs perfectly with your Mac?

Or Ovi Contacts, their free address book service that syncs with your Mac?

Or were you thinking of the Nokia Messaging services such as their free push email service?

Sure, I could have an iPhone and pay extra for MobileMe and suffer a less reliable service but that would be a major YAWN.

N97 - If you've not heard, most of the issues were fixed in the second firmware release. It's not uncommon unfortunately with Nokia to have to wait for the x.1 release to get something that works well. Oh wait, who else does that....Apple perhaps?

ps. N97 Mini

 

[conradwt]

You really do sound like a brainless fanboy

Isn't clear to you that this isn't about money, Nokia could have set a price per iPhone to charge Apple, instead they said they will let the courts decide the amount to be paid. Nokia still operate at a 20+ BILLION revenue in comparison to Apple, who are in a lot more markets than Nokia

If you can't see thefacts of this discussion you shouldn't even be involved

Apple's net worth is $183.40B which is 4x that of Nokia's at $48.24B.

 

[Nuvi]

http://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:NOK

Take a long hard look at The Net Profit margins for Nokia.

-9.31%

It's P/E ratio: 63.63.
EPS: $.20
Shares outstanding: 3.71 Billion

Now take at look at Apple's Net Profit margins.

http://www.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ:AAPL

+16.87%

It's P/E ratio: 33.26.
EPS: $6.29
Shares outstanding: 900.68 Million

Nokia's stock is just under $13/share.

Nokia return on assets/equity (2009) vs (2008)
Return on average assets -10.08% 10.08%
Return on average equity -18.01% 27.52%

This isn't a healthy company. It's dying and this is a last ditch effort to infuse it's Bank Lenders confidence.

LOL at Nokia dying Stop that fanboy nonsense. What next? Microsoft dying? Getting in grips with reality and some objectivity wouldn't hurt...

 

[aegisdesign]

I still think patents for a international standard should be forfeit.

But then nobody would give up their patents to a standard or spend billions on R&D.

It would be pretty stupid to spend billions on new technology research only to have someone come along and use your technology for free to take your market away from you.

Oh wait...

 

[MecPro]

We can look at all the numbers all day long and see that Nokia is losing ground, that is true. Of course the money is a benefit, but the fact still remains that money IMO isn't the main issue here, and it's nothing more than Nokia protecting their patents.

It's quite simply that Nokia helped develop technology which Apple never paid for. Apple won't allow Nokia to share in their patents, so what is the next logical step? It is to sue for an amount the courts to analyse and will decide. Nokia are not asking for x amount, they are asking th epeople in the know to assess the amount of Nokia technology in Apple products and then ask for a suitable amount

If this was about money, then Nokia would have asked for $50 for each patent, yes EACH..not just the 10 most solid ones, but all THOUSANDS of the patents based on WIFI and GSM.

Again as I say, Nokia work mainly in R&D for mobile phones, their main markets are mobile phones although they do have smaller sections that work in IT. Apple on the other hand operate on a much larger scale from Mobile phones, OS, Servers, Computers, entertainment devices etc. They have a larger opportunity to earn money since they are working in a larger area in comparison to Nokia, and for the fact that Nokia's revenue for the last fiscal year was still larger than Apples, continues to prove why they are right to defend their patents in research and development in the mobile phone industry.

If McDonalds sold the McWhopper, no matter how much money BK made, the logical and right decision will be to sue McDonalds. The money either company make is NOT THE MAIN ISSUE. The main issue is that McDonalds have take something another company has created and used it for their own benefits. If any of you guys worked in business or worked for a company who create technology, then you'll know about how hard people work for patents, and how protective they are about them. If someone took my patented technology and just ran with it and made a **** load of cash, damn right I'd be annoyed, the money would be a pleasant after thought.

But that's my opinion, as we are, feel free to agree or disagree

edit* One other thing, how many phones has Apple sold? I think it's almost 10m, how much will Nokia realistically ask for in terms of licensing per phone? To get even 1b it will need to be $100 per iPhone (I think my maths is right!) which I don't think is realistic. Are Nokia asking for a license for each iPhone sold, or the ones for future sale? These are actual questions, not rhetorical ones

 

[aegisdesign]

The iPhone is not just an "iPod shuffle- type of device."
it's a phone that revolutionized the whole entire phone industry.

How?
1) Every phone company are doing touch-screens now.
2) They're starting to go "app crazy."
3) Most features, like virtual keyboards, built in apps are being copied.
4) Phone companies are changing their dimensions on phones.
5) The visual voicemail became a phenomenon.
6) Pinch&zoom,.. WOW! Many are trying to do that now. Most of them fail to though. Ha!
7) People see this device as a, "OMG! Finally some new features and ideas."

and the list can keep going.

None of these Apple invented however or patented.

 

[cjmillsnun]

The patents include wifi patents. Macs do come with wifi built-in, these days.

So do most PCs, so why isn't Nokia suing Dell or HP?

 

[mrochester]

So do most PCs, so why isn't Nokia suing Dell or HP?

Maybe they pay for them?

 

[MecPro]

So do most PCs, so why isn't Nokia suing Dell or HP?

As noted by the other guy, maybe they pay for them..or maybe it's only beacause Apple counter-sued them, and this is counter counter sue!

 

[E.Lizardo]

The fanboy drivel runs thick and fast in this thread. No-one here seems to know the fine details of the case and yet all the negativity is attributed to Nokia. That is the very definition of blind faith there. Knee jerk reactions based on the notion that one involved party can do no wrong. It's lazy thinking, closed minded, and just downright ugly.

If you have nothing to add to the discussion than "Apple good, Nokia bad" then don't post at all. Read the thread, move on and then maybe we all might learn something instead of having to wade through pages and pages of **** to get to the real facts.

I could probably make this post in a huge number of threads here.

GO APPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And you would be wasting your time in a huge number of threads here.If you don't like the posts here,don't read the threads and do move along....

 

[aegisdesign]

However, they did say that the initial offer from nokia was in excess of what everyone else was paying under the F/RAND deal:

No they did not.

Article 82. Nokia demanded a royalty three times as much as the royalty proposed prior sping, which was itself in excess of a F/RAND rate

That is simply stating that the previous spring's offer was not considered F/RAND by Apple. It is not stating that the offer was what everyone else was paying Nokia.

Nokia state in their complaint that they have been offering the patents under the terms of F/RAND. Apple is saying they weren't. Neither side is telling us what those terms were.

 

[MecPro]

If Apple have bought license chips from manufacturers who use the technology and have paid royalties, this this case is done and dusted.

We need more info

 

[aegisdesign]

yeah. And without Apple we would still have mobiles like those from Nokia just a few years ago. I think Nokia has got what they deserve.

Pioneers ... maybe. They were good a long time ago, but meanwhile using their mobiles is a neverending source of frustration and despair.

Odd, my E71 is the best mobile phone I've ever had. Flawless SIP calls, great email clent, good call quality, thinner than an iPhone, mostly made of stainless steel, 1500mAh battery that lasts 2-3 days, flawless sync with my Mac and the best twitter client on any platform (Gravity).

Some peoples priorities lie outside Super Monkey Ball.

 

[DMann]

The main issue is that McDonalds have take something another company has created and used it for their own benefits.

And just what benefits might we talking about here? $$

One other thing, how many phones has Apple sold? I think it's almost 10m

Try 10 Million during this quarter alone. The number happens to exceed 50 Million to date.

Are Nokia asking for a license for each iPhone sold, or the ones for future sale? These are actual questions, not rhetorical ones

The majority of your questions' content has been addressed during and within the ongoing negotiations, dating back to 2007 - to date, we do not know the details.

If Nokia is only looking for patent royalties of 2%-3%, ($12-$18 per phone) then one would imagine that Apple would likely have agreed to that - it seems, however, that Nokia is asking for significantly more.

We'll likely find out, soon enough.

 

[Stella]

Damn, I'm running out of pop corn.

This is great - "Apple can't do no wrong / shouldn't pay up "vs the rest

Nokia must protect their patents, as Apple must do, or lose them. So, its not surprising each are suing each other and upping the stakes.

 

[aegisdesign]

edit* One other thing, how many phones has Apple sold? I think it's almost 10m, how much will Nokia realistically ask for in terms of licensing per phone? To get even 1b it will need to be $100 per iPhone (I think my maths is right!) which I don't think is realistic. Are Nokia asking for a license for each iPhone sold, or the ones for future sale? These are actual questions, not rhetorical ones

It's not even that. Piper Jaffery's analyst reckoned it was 1 to 2% or $12 per iphone as a worst case scenario. ie. it's peanuts and not about the money.

http://brainstormtech.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2009/10/22/nokia-vs-apple-12-per-iphone/

 

[ChazUK]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (Linux; U; Android 1.5; en-gb; HTC Hero Build/CUPCAKE) AppleWebKit/528.5+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.2 Mobile Safari/525.20.1)

yeah. And without Apple we would still have mobiles like those from Nokia just a few years ago. I think Nokia has got what they deserve.

Pioneers ... maybe. They were good a long time ago, but meanwhile using their mobiles is a neverending source of frustration and despair.

Wow. Where will all this end up?
I tink that one of the pioneers of modern telecommunication want what they deserve. (Cue cries of "Nokia fanboy")

Without Nokia (and the others involved in the development of gsm technology), you wouldn't have an iPhone.

Just because product is better than the other, it doesn't give Apple the right to steal anyone else's technology.

 

[Vmaatta]

I"m sure you are well aware that Nokia doesn't own ALL the patents and has been sued themselves over royalties and such and actually gave up ownership of some applicable patents to Qualcomm. And part of that collection of lawsuits was unreasonable price hikes by Nokia for key patents for GSM.

Yes I'm well aware that Nokia doens't own all GSM patents .

 

[archipellago]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (Linux; U; Android 1.5; en-gb; HTC Hero Build/CUPCAKE) AppleWebKit/528.5+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.2 Mobile Safari/525.20.1)



Just because product is better than the other, it doesn't give Apple the right to steal anyone else's technology.

the iphone isn't a better product anyway.....

different, not better.

 

[zacman]

Let's look at Nokia's recent ventures:

Comes With Music - FAIL

Hm? 5800 CWM sold more than 12 million in less than 3 months. Outsold the iPhone 3G by a factor of 3 after its release. Not so bad, eh?

 

[MattInOz]

Certainly, the same can be said. But Apple will become a cropper in the same way eventually.

Apple already did...

"come a cropper" that is, in the beleaguered years.

Too many products all too similar to each other with not enough distinguishing factors for the buyer to know with any confidence which model really suited.

Loss of direction and drive to innovate, major talent drains the other main storylines in that era. Can Apple stay away from those traps in the future. You would hope so but there are many other traps for them to stubble in to as well.

Does sound an awful lot like where Nokia are now.
The N97 does seem like their iMac, in that it could well be the turning point for them. It brings back the focus to being good at what they are good at. Getting Talent and skill to drive fashion not the other way around.

This case is going to be interesting to watch over the next few years.
Yes Nokia invested lots of effort in R&D and got lucky with some very good timing. Still they should reap the benefits of that.

On the other hand they themselves conceded to make the most they had to form a standard to spread the info about and lower the price to so called Fair and reasonable terms. I would guess these term are well known in that industry. They would have had to have built "reasonable" in to the costings for the product.

Both side could be and probably are playing a game here.
Nokia seems to wanting to get their hands on some IP that Apple wants to hold out on to as long as possible.
Could be years could be days we really don't know.

 

[mabaker]

Y'all acting as if Apple wouldn't do the same being in Nokia's shoes.

That's politics and both parties so so so know it.

 

[MorphingDragon]

But then nobody would give up their patents to a standard or spend billions on R&D.

It would be pretty stupid to spend billions on new technology research only to have someone come along and use your technology for free to take your market away from you.

Oh wait...

Communication standards should be open, just like internet standards.

 

[zacman]

No they did not.

"45. Apple has rejected Nokia's offer for the F/RAND terms and conditions both on portfolio and on a per patent basis (...)"