Nokia Increases Scope of Patent Complaints to Include 'Virtually All' Apple Products

[ranguvar]

Most probably it's some kind of ridiculous complaint about how Apple used a lens for their camera or created a touch user interface that's controlled with fingers or about how there are processors and chips in the iPhone as opposed to having built one with bread, cheese and butter.

Seriously, most of these patent complaints (and the patents themselves) are pretty ridiculous. Quite a lot of the things they file patents for are really trivial things.
I remember that one iPod patent that included voice control and what it said was basically "the user says something into the microphone and then the iPod analyzes what the user said and does some kind of action". I think we can agree that this is just a paraphrase of "voice control".

Patent complaints are mostly just a way for companies to make (or loose) money and battle each other in court.

Nokia and Apple should step out of court and innovate!

 

[aegisdesign]

It gets better. Apple outlines the nature of Nokia's potentially illegal strong-arm tactics. ( Apple specifically claims Nokia to be unlawful in article 84)

From Apple's counter-claim;

Article 81. In Particular, in or about the spring of 2008, Nokia demanded that, as part of it’s compensation for licensing Nokia’s portfolio of purported essential patents, Apple must grant Nokia a license to a particular number of Apple non-standards-essential patents...Apple immediately rejected the proposal and reiterated Apple’s position that Nokia’s F/RAND obligations required it to licence Nokia’s purportedly essential technologies.

Article 82. ...In or about May 2009, Nokia demanded a royalty approximately three times as much as the royalty proposed the prior spring, which was itself in excess of a F/RAND rate, as well as “picks’ to Apple’s non-standards-essential patents.


Nokia have been very naughty.

That doesn't sound naughty at all.

That sounds like Nokia, after trying to licence and Apple saying NO, tried two more times giving Apple options and they still said NO whilst Apple persistently infringed.

So Nokia asks the court to settle what the fees should be and Apple counter-sues.

Apple are being jerks. Just pay up already like everybody else has. It's peanuts. It's less than this court battle will cost you. Or just let Nokia use some of your patents in exchange? What's the worst than can happen? Nokia are more interested in lower priced phones and business phones where you don't compete, not shiny hipster toys.

 

[MorphingDragon]

I know of QT. QT doesn't make much sense for Maemo. Gnome is much more dominant right now and as been for the last 2 years with the KDE 4 debacle and there has always been many more GTK+ apps than QT apps, which in turn means more developpers who already know the API.

Just because a Desktop is more dominant than another desktop in a 1% market share doesn't mean QT is used less. When really, QT is used more than GTK.

GTK is for GUI. QT is a complete SDK comparable to .Net and Cocoa. Lets see what professional devs use QT.

Google, Skype, KDE, Asus, Samsung, Sun, opera, Adobe, HP, Sony, Barco, RealFLow, Roku, Kangaroo, ZTE, Naviflash, Volkswagon, BMW, HGZ, Honda, SAAB, Satoti Hydro, GE, Oracle, Mita, Phzer AMD, Philips, Novell and the list goes on and on and on.

GTK? Redhat.... Novell...

...

Does GTK have native multitouch. Does GTK have thread management. Does GtK have file handlers. Is GTK able to be naively used with OO programming. is GTK designed form the gorund up to be cross platform.

 

[Goona]

The only things that I dislike about Apple are the fanboys. How stupid and blind can you people really be?

And how stupid and blind can some of you idiotic haters be?

 

[Povilas]

I know of QT. QT doesn't make much sense for Maemo. Gnome is much more dominant right now and as been for the last 2 years with the KDE 4 debacle and there has always been many more GTK+ apps than QT apps, which in turn means more developpers who already know the API.

Qtopia would've made sense if Maemo would've been phone technology from day 1, pure QT ? Not so much.

It's not about Gnome or KDE it's about efficiency GTK far more bloated uses mor RAM and takes more rendering power. QT is a lot lighter in all aspects.

 

[Goona]

They did. For years they have been using their patents on low power GSM integration in their handsets. Almost every company that makes a GSM phone uses the same technology. Just because this patent is older, doesn't make is any less valid. Other companies have been paying Nokia their fair share, why hasn't Apple?

Apple and a few other tech giants seem to think that they are untouchable in the legal system because of cash flow. That ongoing childish battle with Apple Corps. in which Apple Computer finally won and then became Apple Co. is a good example.

For years MS operated this way and they are living in the bed they made. The latest injunction over MS Word shows the futility. If Apple wants to smear Nokia as these private legal battles become public, that is their prerogative.

I doubt very much that Nokia is doing this to make a profit. If Nokia is doing as poorly as everyone claims, and Apple is doing as well as everyone claims; it would seem like a futile uphill struggle to continue for the underdog.

If Apple wants to continue to ignore Patents that they are using and not paying for, I hope they get what is coming to them. Same goes for Nokia, SE, DELL, Palm, Moto and the rest.

The Finns gave us the first GSM phone call almost 20 years ago. You have a lot to thank them for. The very fact that Nokia still manufactures phones in Finnland, is AWESOME. I would die if I could buy a quality computer made in the USA still.

So I guess Apple should go ahead and pay 3 times the industry rate because the Finns gave us the first GSM phone call right?

 

[McBeats]

LOL @ nokia.

nuff said

 

[Goona]

Except for the fact that Apple says in its filings in the court case that they have been in negotiations with Nokia for over 2 years now to license these patents.

Nokia is not a new Psystar, if anything, it's Apple that is improperly using someone else's intellectual property here.

This isn't black and white. Nokia is ahead of Apple by about 3 orders of magnitude in the cellphone market. They are ahead in the technology game with the N900 (vs the 3GS) and Maemo tablets (vs the rumored Apple products).

Nokia isn't a bad guy, Apple isn't a good guy and reverses aren't true either. This is just 2 corporations that didn't see eye to eye on licensing issues and couldn't find common grounds in 2 years of negotiations. Now they're going to have the courts decide. This is precisely why there are courts and a justice system.

No your Nokia is just a greedy company who wants some of Apple's profits, that's why they want them paying 3 times the industry rate. Why should Apple be treated any different, is it because they have a product that they are making billions off. You must be kidding me.

 

[aegisdesign]

Why they decided to switch from GTK to QT isn't clear to me though. Possibly because QT is more cross platform? That's about the only thing I can think of.

Yep. Qt 4.6 came out a month or so back and now includes a port to Symbian S60 V3 FP1 and later. It's a beta release on Maemo 5 and of course still runs on Windows, OSX, Linux and a few other OSs.

If you were writing a mobile application for Symbian and Maemo, QT would be it.

 

[Goona]

Quoted for Truth. Nokia is trying to change licensing terms in order to export triple the amount of money as well as access to Apple's patents.

According to the Nokia fanboys, Apple should pay whatever Nokia demands!

 

[KnightWRX]

No your Nokia is just a greedy company who wants some of Apple's profits, that's why they want them paying 3 times the industry rate. Why should Apple be treated any different, is it because they have a product that they are making billions off. You must be kidding me.

Sorry my Nokia ? I don't even own a single Nokia product, much less have a job with them or even stock.

Where did you get *MY* nokia from ?

Just because a Desktop is more dominant than another desktop in a 1% market share doesn't mean QT is used less. When really, QT is used more than GTK.

GTK is for GUI. QT is a complete SDK comparable to .Net and Cocoa. Lets see what professional devs use QT.

Google, Skype, KDE, Asus, Samsung, Sun, opera, Adobe, HP, Sony, Barco, RealFLow, Roku, Kangaroo, ZTE, Naviflash, Volkswagon, BMW, HGZ, Honda, SAAB, Satoti Hydro, GE, Oracle, Mita, Phzer AMD, Philips, Novell and the list goes on and on and on.

GTK? Redhat.... Novell...

...

Does GTK have native multitouch. Does GTK have thread management. Does GtK have file handlers. Is GTK able to be naively used with OO programming. is GTK designed form the gorund up to be cross platform.

You're missing a few facts. Maemo doesn't need cross-platform, since it's one platform. They have an API for most of what QT does, GTK is only used for GUI parts because like you said, GTK is about GUI (glib abstracts a lot of other parts and is usually always used with GTK). Maemo is pretty much about drawing in open source devs, and in open source, GTK+ is more popular right now (and as been for about ever) than QT.

This was about leveraging the open source community. The fact is, they are now moving to eating their own dogfood and moving to QT for Maemo 6.0. They will also change their browser from Mozilla to Webkit. Nokia isn't dumb. GTK probably made more sense initially and now QT makes more sense moving into the future.

According to the Nokia fanboys, Apple should pay whatever Nokia demands!

I haven't read that in this thread. I've seen a few neutral people who look at facts say Apple should pay something to Nokia to use the patents, and that a suit makes sense if the companies can't negotiate proper licensing terms.

 

[ThunderSkunk]

Ok, my reaction as a potential customer is: instant blacklist of Nokia products in my company and household.

Having thrown this out there, they sure as hell better win to change my mind, because otherwise, they're just another shi**y company with too many lawyers and not enough product innovation.

 

[Goona]

ITC typically acts in the interest of American companies, where's Qualcomm based? The chance that the ITC will make any such ban on products of an American company that have been shipping for years. Zero to None.

I'm sure the dude would like that to happen. He has a public vendetta against Steve Jobs and Apple which he is running on the internet.

 

[MorphingDragon]

Yep. Qt 4.6 came out a month or so back and now includes a port to Symbian S60 V3 FP1 and later. It's a beta release on Maemo 5 and of course still runs on Windows, OSX, Linux and a few other OSs.

If you were writing a mobile application for Symbian and Maemo, QT would be it.

Its also cross platform on all operating systems with little porting.

 

[Goona]

Nope, Nokia has asked for exactly the same amount (5 percent of revenue), Apple doesn't even deny that. They are just saying that it is to much. Quite a tough argument as 30+ mobile companies agreed to pay the exactly same amount to Nokia before. Even those companies that sued Nokia because of their patents asked for that amount because it's been the standard FRAND amount in the mobile sector. Just Apple didn't want to pay.

So Apple said "Ok, we're not licencing your tech because it's too much for us, we're just stealing it! HAHA!"

Errrrrrrrrrrrrm, they asked for 3 times the industry rate in May of this year, why should Apple pay 3 times the industry rate, please tell us.

 

[aegisdesign]

No your Nokia is just a greedy company who wants some of Apple's profits, that's why they want them paying 3 times the industry rate. Why should Apple be treated any different, is it because they have a product that they are making billions off. You must be kidding me.

Apple are the only ones saying that. Nokia asked the courts to decide what was fair and what Apple should pay.

Seems to me they wouldn't ask the courts to decide unless they were happy with an outcome of "what everyone else pays".

 

[Goona]

If you want your tech toys not made in China, another good reason to buy Nokias--the high-end ones are made in Finland

You know most things in the world are now made in China especially electronics but yet we're still living, I wonder why they aren't making everything in Finland. If you use electronics in this day and age, it's probably being made in China, deal with it.

Apple are the only ones saying that. Nokia asked the courts to decide what was fair and what Apple should pay.

Seems to me they wouldn't ask the courts to decide unless they were happy with an outcome of "what everyone else pays".

So Apple is lying then about Nokia asking then to pay 3 times the industry rate?

 

[surferfromuk]

That doesn't sound naughty at all.

That sounds like Nokia, after trying to licence and Apple saying NO, tried two more times giving Apple options and they still said NO whilst Apple persistently infringed.

So Nokia asks the court to settle what the fees should be and Apple counter-sues.

Apple are being jerks. Just pay up already like everybody else has. It's peanuts. It's less than this court battle will cost you. Or just let Nokia use some of your patents in exchange? What's the worst than can happen? Nokia are more interested in lower priced phones and business phones where you don't compete, not shiny hipster toys.

I suggest you read Apple's claim to gain a complete understanding of the situation. You will realise just how bad this really is for Nokia.

And why do I say that? Because....

Apple either clearly has documentary evidence to support it's claims that Nokia was attempting unlawful extortion in face of it's F/RAND obligations or they don't.

My feeling is they most obviously do otherwise they wouldn't have gone with a counter-claim and wouldn't make continual and repeated reference to it, nor would they pointlessly refused to pay a FAIR and REASONABLE NON-DISCRIMINATORY rate had they been offered it.

 

[Goona]

Stupid but true. Look at the specs on the N900. They beat the 3GS to a pulp. Look at the Maemo tablets, they have been shipping for quite some time ( ie, years).

Look at smartphone Market share. Nokia is 40% to Apple's 16%.

So it's only stupid if you're blinded by Apple love and can't see facts.

Yeah I see the facts alright, even with their supposed higher marketshare, Apple is making more profits off their iphone than Nokia. No wonder why Nokia wants some of their profits.

 

[Rocketman]

Nokia, in paragraph 44 of its complaint, says that all the offers it made to apple were subject to reciprocity.

I am afraid to say that is the smoking gun. Admission against interest.

Rocketman

 

[KnightWRX]

Yeah I see the facts alright, even with their supposed higher marketshare, Apple is making more profits off their iphone than Nokia. No wonder why Nokia wants some of their profits.

Profit only means Apple makes higher margins off their devices, not that they sell more or better quality devices.

In fact, quite the contrary, Apple making more profit only goes to show that Apple is scamming you in a sense. I wouldn't make that argument to promote any kind of intelligence on the part of Apple.

Seriously, you're grasping at straws. Nokia has patents that Apple needs to license. They can't agree to the terms. The courts will decide, and Apple will end up paying. This will end in settlement. Both sides are just pilling up the charges as way to push negotiations. This is business as usual.

 

[Goona]

Interesting - Nokia are going for damages resulting from what it perceives is lost market share. No wonder Apple are fighting it - this could result in massive open ended settlement.

From Nokia's filing ;


73. Even if Apple were to subsequently pay past due F/RAND royalites, it would still enjoy a market share it otherwise would not have but for the period of “free riding.” Nokia would likewise lose its portion of the market share for the period of the “free riding.” Due to the difficulty in predicting whether, if at all, such market share can be recovered, Nokia’s harm cannot be compensated by payment of past due F/RAND royalties alone.

Where are all the Nokia fanboys? Nokia are jealous of Apple's marketshare that they have gained. They also know Apple is making billions of the iphone. I wonder why Nokia with all the marketshare they will ever need is worried about the small and irrelevant marketshare according to the Nokia fanboys that Apple has.

 

[MacNorway]

Stupid but true. Look at the specs on the N900. They beat the 3GS to a pulp. Look at the Maemo tablets, they have been shipping for quite some time ( ie, years).

Look at smartphone Market share. Nokia is 40% to Apple's 16%.

So it's only stupid if you're blinded by Apple love and can't see facts.

Specs don't mean crap. All that matters is if it works or not. It doesn't matter how nice big boobs the girl has or how beautiful she is if she's dumbass stupid and can't suck.

Nokia spent how many years building that market share? And Apple? And how many Maemos have you seen in the wild?

 

[aegisdesign]

So Apple is lying then about Nokia asking then to pay 3 times the industry rate?

They actually alleged Nokia asked for three times what they'd offered the previous year, not three times the industry rate, whatever that is.

If you're suggesting the second offer was three times the industry rate then the implication is that Apple initially refused to pay even the "industry rate" whatever that is.

I suspect what actually happened was that Nokia offered a very low rate but included use of patents in the deal. Apple refused to include patents so the second offer was higher to reflect that.

 

[*LTD*]

alleging infringement of Nokia-held patents by "virtually all" Apple products, including the iPhone, iPod, and Mac.

Absolute lunacy. I'm dying to see this play out, if only to get a better sense of just how far this company has degenerated.