Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
With the inevitably fall of RIM and their Blackberrys in the US market, there will be a place in the smartphone market for Microsoft and Nokia.

Microsoft wouldn't have missed the whole smartphone revolution if they didn't have Steve Ballmer as CEO. What an idiot.

Yes.
The funniest thing is that MSFT had a 7 year lead in the smart phones. They had the "best" PDA after killing PALM.

Bill Gates did great with MSFT. Since Ballmer have taken over, their stock have fallen 50%.

Ballmer have 2 sides to him:
1) Without him, IBM would not have made the biggest mistake in computer history: licensing DOS. DOS that MSFT did not even have. Only Ballmer can sell something that you don't have. (then he ran out and bought QDOS for 50K)
Look at Android. Ballmer have gotten 9 Android vendors to pay MSFT protection fee for each Android device. 5-15 dollar per device. MSFT will make almost a billion next year on this. Free money. (Apple invent. Google clone. Android vendors pays licensing to MSFT).


The bad side of Ballmer:
No innovation. No drive to make great products.
 
Except Ballmer and co. are still running MS. Not quite an awe-inspiring recipe for change.


Does MS have a Steve Jobs-type figure ready to swoop in and re-invent the brand and their business? Sometimes that's what it takes. I don't see any visionary at MS. Do you?


Yes. But the signs for it aren't very encouraging. Anything can happen. But if nothing fundamental changes at MS (and nothing has, by the looks of it) it'll probably be more of the same.


With what we'e seen today from MS and Nokia, it's getting harder and harder to notice. Apparently, this is defined as a radical change at MS. LOL


Of course. It's called "Market Realities." Something MS and a few others in the same boat have yet to wake up to.


Absolutely. They've earned it. I'm also passionate about seeing things clearly. A lot of that clarity involves acknowledging an Apple-dominated market reality in one way or another - whether in terms of ideas, products, mindshare etc. There's no point in denying it, and more importantly, there's no point in pretending it has no effect. The effect is palpable and far-reaching, for the industry at large and consumers alike. Apple sneezes, and everyone else reaches for a Kleenex.

MS has, is, and judging from what we're seeing, will, perform way below expectations, way below what their R&D and mass of human capital suggests is possible. And in light of Ballmer's track record, his attitude, beliefs about tech and the people he chooses to surround himself with, what's going to change? And when? And why should anything change at all, given that the very Board that Ballmer is responsible to appears wholly complicit in his "strategy"?


I don't work for Apple.

And yes, I'm quite biased. I'm biased against ****, and the companies that think it's perfectly fine to mass-produce it, and then either laugh about it or act completely incredulous when a) consumers end up not wanting it, or b) someone else comes along and proves it to them.

Sinofsky, to name one.
 
That's odd, given I have the same phone and find Mango is better than iOS. Maybe it's a matter of opinion and not fact?

Nah, its probably just my Apple reality distortion field getting in the way. OR perhaps its the incredible amount of missing features/apps/services that I lose when I try to use my Focus in the same way I use my iPhone.
 
MS has, is, and judging from what we're seeing, will, perform way below expectations, way below what their R&D and mass of human capital suggests is possible. And in light of Ballmer's track record, his attitude, beliefs about tech and the people he chooses to surround himself with, what's going to change? And when? And why should anything change at all, given that the very Board that Ballmer is responsible to appears wholly complicit in his "strategy"?

Having switched some of what I do back to Windows I can tell you that W7 has some advantages over Mac. Sure, Windows is more of a pain to set up and maintain than Mac but it's a fine OS.

The nicest thing about using W7 is the desktop. Red X box to close, CTRL instead of CMD, the End key, Save As, no stupid autosave, and especially no spinning beach ball. Excel and Word also work nicer on Windows.

Yes, I still like my Mac apps but I'd rather do a lot on W7 rather than on Lion.
 
Mac OS market share: approx. 10%.

I havent seen the reality distortion field this intense since steve jobs....

boy will be boys, er, fanboys will be fanboys.

You understand that market share is irrelevant?
Its about making money and great product.
MSFT can have 90+% market share in OS (and if you work with IT you know why they have 90%)
Android can have 90% market share in smartphones as long as Apple continues to sell more phones and make great products/profit.

Apple have 90%+ market share in computers over 1000 dollars.
Ipad have a higher ASP then the ASP of computers.
People are prepared to pay for quality. Like BMW instead of a Skoda.

Why have 90% market share and make crappy products and less money?
That is .com bubble thinking.
Finally investors starts to remember that its about making money. Netflix down 60%+ and Amazon down sharply. Yes. Amazon will get a huge market share in tablets. But they buy this market share. Each tablet is sold at a huge loss. You may think its good strategy to loose money. I don't.
 
That's odd, given I have the same phone and find Mango is better than iOS. Maybe it's a matter of opinion and not fact?

You can have your opinion, and then there are market realities that exist regardless and separate from your opinion.

WP7 is currently flopping because consumers don't care about it. Some reasons have already been listed. By and large, it doesn't bring enough to the table, and it arrived quite late. So after a year its share is negligible.

So what's changed now?

Some people preferred the Zune (yes, it's true), but the platform is now dead. Some people preferred WebOS, but the platform is now dead, or rather, somewhere between dying and dead. Some people preferred the Playbook, but it's a failure. Some people preferred HP's Windows Slate, but it was killed faster than you can say iPad.

Quite a few people spent (or rather, wasted) money on these dead platforms which are no longer supported, or getting too little of it to make it worth keeping. Dead and dying platforms in effect shaft consumers. That's why it's important to understand market forces and what they mean for those who are a part of it.

There are forces that act irrespective of and beyond your personal preferences.
 
Last edited:
Or in different terms....Anybody that doesn't agree with your opinion is simply not worth listening to.

Not at all. You don't have to like the hardware, but it's a well known fact that Nokia makes solid hardware.

I have a Samsung focus. It is neither smoother or better than iOS.

I think you misunderstood me. By last years hardware, I was referring to the single core processors still used for WP7 as opposed to the dual cores used by other major platforms. I didn't literally mean an old phone. Also, no where did I ever imply it was better.
 
Nokia waits at least ONE QUARTER to even discuss bringing the phones to the US while Apple manages to get the iPhone to at least some European countries at the same time.

And one wonders why they are failing! (It was the same with the N95, N96, etc...6-12 months later they manage to get them to the US.)

Nokia can never get volume shipping of these phones since they buy them from Korean OEMs (probably HTC).

If HTC have to chose between manufacturing their own phone or OEM one phone to Nokia. Who do you thing they will prioritize?

The Nokia moron CEO needs to get Nokia's factories online and start manufacture their own MSFT phones.
Then it can be interesting. Nokia is the only phone company that can manufacture 50 dollar phones and make profit. With this expertise they may be able to manufacture a full feature smartphone at 50% lover cost then others. That is the only way they can be saved in this oneway called Windows Mobile.
 
You can have your opinion, and then there are market realities that exist regardless and separate from your opinion.

WP7 is currently flopping because consumers don't care about it. Some reasons have already been listed. By and large, it doesn't bring enough to the table, and it arrived quite late. So after a year its share is negligible.

So what's changed now?

So again, you change the conversation to sales instead of discussions on the technology. That's your go-to when you get cornered on any point of technicality. You also omitted the Economist line about MS/ Nokia being able to take over RIM's marketshare. That's not surprising, of course.
 
That wasn't what people said when the first iPad didn't have one. Then it was a sensible design decision. Now, apparently, it's unforgivable.

Since when is iPad and a phone the same thing?
Apple release things when they are ready. When Ipad1 was ready they did not have the infrastructure for FaceTime.
 
The rumors where always that Nokia had 10 designers on each technician.
LM Ericsson had 10 technician on each designer.

Back early 1990 LM Ericsson where the largest cell phone maker in the world. They where 3-4 years ahead of everyone.
The self confidence inside Ericsson was enormous.

In a desperate move Nokia gave every single Ericsson employee there I worked an offer: Jump to Nokia and get 30% more salary. Massive brain drain. Nokias first design phone: the Banana phone in Matrix was released.

Ericsson laughed. They hired ex Microsoft Rolf Skoglund as IT strategist. Within 4 years with him Ericsson went from 250+ SEK down to 3 SEK in share price. 99% share drop thanks to stupid Microsoft.

Now Nokia made the same mistake. Hired a Microsoft CEO that is insane. Nokia gets a billion from MSFT that they have to repay with each telephone they make.

Both Nokia and Ericsson have a special place in my heart since I worked at both places. Both places where killed by maniac leaders that believe that Microsoft cares for anybody but them self.

Rip Nokia.

I used to work for Nokia Data back in the early 90's - they were producing PC's that Apple would be proud of. They got bought-up by UK's ICL, who wanted the nice PC's, then ICL was bought by Fujitsu and the beautifully designed Nokia PC's became horrible brown/grey boxes like all the rest of the rubbish on the market.

I mean Nokia PC's were seriously good, they had a lot of innovation and came in different colors, way before Apple had the eMac :)
 
So again, you change the conversation to sales instead of discussions on the technology.

Sales and market performance dictates whether that product containing that technology you love so much continues to be available.

The tech is nice, but if no one's buying it, it's worth about as much as a pair of thermal underwear in Death Valley at high noon. All you can do is hope someone else implements it.
That's your go-to when you get cornered on any point of technicality. You also omitted the Economist line about MS/ Nokia being able to take over RIM's marketshare.

That's assuming Apple and Google don't get to it first. What we *do* know is that the move to Apple - to a degree noticeable enough to make headlines - has already begun, especially in light of the iPhone 4S:

https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/13723743/

http://www.neowin.net/news/rim-delays-blackberry-playbook-os-update
 
Who cares what people claim Apple did and did not invent. This thread is about the merits of Nokia's new Windows Phone. Don't know why you felt the need to campaign against Apple fans here.

Ah, thats what you were trying to do. I thought you came to the Macrumors message board to complain about Apple fans (which of course you did).


PhoneI - Please don't pretend or feign ignorance that there have been several people in this thread who prompted both his and my comments about Apple. It wasn't some random occurrence nor was non-sequitor.

Since when is iPad and a phone the same thing?
Apple release things when they are ready. When Ipad1 was ready they did not have the infrastructure for FaceTime.

Seriously? The iPhone 4 came out in June and the iPad came out in April. Regardless of whether the infrastructure was in place - they had already planned on Facetime. It wasn't some last minute addition. They could have easily released the iPad with a camera for obvious reasons and then "surprised" all owners with this great OS update that enabled facetime too.

They put cameras on the iPad2 because that was their roadmap. And to give incentives to upgrade. And no doubt there was also influence by other tablets (whether they sold well or not) that had cameras.

It's about sales. It wasn't about whether or not the infrastructure was in place.
 
That's odd, given I have the same phone and find Mango is better than iOS. Maybe it's a matter of opinion and not fact?

Well, yes, but only in the same sense that a Monet painting is more beautiful than dog poop.
 
You can have your opinion, and then there are market realities that exist regardless and separate from your opinion.

WP7 is currently flopping because consumers don't care about it.

So, again, you're saying OS X is a big flop. Sure, we like it, but "market realities" say we're wrong.
 
Are people really that dense?

The reason it's news on Macrumors is that it is Microsoft and Nokias answer to iOS and iPhone - the competition. There is nothing wrong with having an article on this as its interesting to see what other companies are coming up with in direct correlation to competing with Apple...think before you post people.
 
Having switched some of what I do back to Windows I can tell you that W7 has some advantages over Mac. Sure, Windows is more of a pain to set up and maintain than Mac but it's a fine OS.

The nicest thing about using W7 is the desktop. Red X box to close, CTRL instead of CMD, the End key, Save As, no stupid autosave, and especially no spinning beach ball. Excel and Word also work nicer on Windows.

Yes, I still like my Mac apps but I'd rather do a lot on W7 rather than on Lion.

VM it, thats what i do now that I'm stuck with mac hardware. :- )

While we're off topic, is there anyway to make windows snap to the side in Lion? Thats probably the #1 thing i miss now that i figured out how to turn on the 3 finger expose swipe.

----------

Well, yes, but only in the same sense that a Monet painting is more beautiful than dog poop.

Hey, i know iOS aint all that fresh, but dog poop - thats a bit harsh now, isn't it? ;)
 
So, again, you're saying OS X is a big flop. Sure, we like it, but "market realities" say we're wrong.

No. The market realities with respect to OS X have already been explained, and they should be obvious from the outset.

In brief:

Apple's penalty for "losing" the PC war in the 1990s is that they're now the most profitable PC maker in the world. Mac sales growth has outpaced the industry for well around 30 consecutive quarters now, if not more (even during a recession.) Apple owns the $1000+ category. And they are set to have another record quarter (already well into double-digit share in the US) selling expensive gear that runs an unlicensed, closed-platform OS, usually with a $1000 entry-fee. In fact, they are fresh off a record Mac quarter, as I'm sure you've noticed.

The numbers are just percentages, until you understand what they actually mean.

At this point, after a year on the market, WP7 is neither in demand, neither dominating a segment of retail, neither profitable, neither outpacing anyone else in growth, neither setting any records, neither priced out of and into another market segment to result in a benefit, neither offering anything substantially more than its rivals.

In short, WP7 isn't performing at all after a year on the market.

The questions still remain: what will change now? What will change consumer perception, and if something will, is it enough?
 
Last edited:
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.