NVMe with ST-NGFF2013-C; Vega Internal GPU; Mac Pro 2013 (6,1)

[tsialex]

But no one has tried to reproduce this issue on a 5,1 or iMac Pro, at least no one that has gotten back to me. So there is a possibility.

Anyone with a 5,1 or iMac Pro willing to attempt a bug repro for this issue?

Most people with MP5,1 and NVMe drives are using the DXE from MP61, so I think that this bug can occur with 5,1 ones too. Need to find someone willing to test and prove it.

 

[elitebigboss]

Similar to feedback from MIKX, you can have a second NVMe drive and partition it as NTFS-only with no APFS partitions on the same drive. That should work and not crash. This is unfortunate for Mac Pro 6,1 since it requires a second hard drive located outside of the cylinder housing. This type of setup may also increase the difficulty of switching boot volumes.
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Except for Mac Pro 6,1 there is currently no evidence to suggest this bug exists on any other Apple computer. But no one has tried to reproduce this issue on a 5,1 or iMac Pro, at least no one that has gotten back to me. So there is a possibility.

Anyone with a 5,1 or iMac Pro willing to attempt a bug repro for this issue?
[doublepost=1535659320][/doublepost]Having less time to spend in the office, I have moved my inside-out Mac Pro (late 2013) back home. It is in pieces, I need to set it up again which takes a couple hours.

Hi, thank you for your reply. I want to add a additional info that is, this kind of kernel panic not only occur on NVMe drive but also happened to my 256GB Apple SSD. Just today, I encountered kernel panic but without that "black screen" and it's a similar behavior to what my apple SSD had before. I suspect that is a common problem with mixing NTFS and APFS not just for NVMe drive? Maybe just because people didn't realize this kernel panic is affected by NTFS (like me)?

 

[CodeJingle]

I want to add a additional info that is, this kind of kernel panic not only occur on NVMe drive but also happened to my 256GB Apple SSD.

If true this helps to narrow down the scope of the problem for either a cause of mostly hardware or mostly software. Spanning multiple hard drive technologies and being specific to NTFS, and knowing that Apple has no expertise in NTFS (Apple's native NTFS driver is still read-only, and Boot Camp still only splits to FAT), I think it shows this is mostly a software issue.

 

[crjackson2134]

If true this helps to narrow down the scope of the problem for either a cause of mostly hardware or mostly software. Spanning multiple hard drive technologies and being specific to NTFS, and knowing that Apple has no expertise in NTFS (Apple's native NTFS driver is still read-only, and Boot Camp still only splits to FAT), I think it shows this is mostly a software issue.

I agree, and I believe as @elitebigboss does, it specifically an APFS conflict.

I think Apple probably has great expertise in NTFS, but rather has no interest in supporting it in macOS, or even accommodating it’s use (for anything) these days.

 

[Pressure]

If true this helps to narrow down the scope of the problem for either a cause of mostly hardware or mostly software. Spanning multiple hard drive technologies and being specific to NTFS, and knowing that Apple has no expertise in NTFS (Apple's native NTFS driver is still read-only, and Boot Camp still only splits to FAT), I think it shows this is mostly a software issue.

It's an license issue.

 

[SillySammy]

Just wanted to say thanks to all those who contributed to this thread.

I got my "new" 2013 Mac Pro cylinder upgraded from the 4core to a 10core/3GHz cpu and added 64GB of RAM.
Also took the time to upgrade to a new NVMe 1TB Samsung EVO 960, and getting over 1300MB/sec formatted APFS. (running 10.13.6, fresh install)

My ROM version is now
MP61.0124.B00

My SMC version is now
2.20f18


Nice thing about the upgrade, it gave me a darn good reason to blow out all the dust bunnies and apply new Artic Silver 5 paste on the CPU. I think the GPUs are fine, but, I might hit them with new paste here later this fall.

37C is what hardware monitor says. With 3 running VMs (VirtualBox 5.2) I never see it go higher than 42C.


I do still have my original 250GB SSD, which I used to do a fresh install in the first place, and then let it upgrade the firmware. Aside from that, it was a perfectly FLAWLESS upgrade, just a few hours for everything.

 

[elitebigboss]

If true this helps to narrow down the scope of the problem for either a cause of most hardware or mostly software. Spanning multiple hard drive technologies and being specific to NTFS, and knowing that Apple has no expertise in NTFS (Apple's native NTFS driver is still read-only, and Boot Camp still only splits to FAT), I think it shows this is mostly a software issue.

I tried to narrow down today, it may not be a problem with ntfs and it is an issue with EFI drive.

Today I perform a windows installation without bootcamp assistant and it runs into kernel panic after I switch to mac. So I erased the windows partition and restore my SSD without bootcamp assistant. And I still encounter kernel panic. So I check my disklist, and clean the EFI by removing microsoft folder from it.

No more kernel panic from there. So I am assuming the real problem here is in EFI? I might be totally wrong here, or EFI and NTFS both cause kernel panic.

 

[CodeJingle]

No more kernel panic from there. So I am assuming the real problem here is in EFI? I might be totally wrong here, or EFI and NTFS both cause kernel panic.

If you can get a core dump and file a bug along with the core dump that will be good.
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It's an license issue.

Well if the license issue requires Apple's implementation of NTFS drivers to be read-only, hopefully they are still working on continually improving those read-only drivers. Unless the license issue requires they use an implementation of drivers that are very old, in which case the driver issues makes sense.

Paragon makes NTFS drivers for macOS that support read and write and tend to me more stable than Apple's built-in NTFS drivers. Apple should make the same deal Paragon made. After how many years I am sure Apple and Microsoft can work out a better license deal for built-in support of NTFS in macOS.

https://www.paragon-software.com/home/ntfs-mac/

I would also note that the kernel panics caused by APFS+NTFS (and EFI thrown in there somewhere) occur on both macOS and Windows! Boot into either partition macOS on APFS or Windows on NTFS, or sometimes even having that drive plugged in and enumerated by the OS even if booting from a different drive, and the OS may still panic.

 

[CodeJingle]

Moved all my stuff back home from the office (see attached photo). But then the reason for all this effort of moving stuff back home changed, and now is no longer applicable. An ombudsman is my gift in response to government behavior best categorized as 'by any means necessary'. I've been busy preparing several documents for legal filing, and some strict deadlines coming up at the office for a project that will get the company free money, so my time for side stuff is still limited.

I am not moving all that stuff back to the office. I have maybe $400 worth of supplies to get in order to accomplish stuff at home. Soldering iron, hot air soldering station, solder, anti-static mat, isopropyl alcohol, nylon and brass brushes, heat tape, another multi-meter, various wires and test leads/probes/clips, various containers, better lighting for the microscope, glue gun and glue sticks, proto boards, microscopic screwdriver set, and some post-it notes. The table legs are metal I sanded some of the coating off I'll probably reconnect to earth ground to further avoid static build-up (like what I have at the office).

Mac Pro (late 2013) almost set up again. I plan to do a core dump after backing up the NVMe and wiping it to a known bad configuration for kernel panic. I first need to upgrade my backup drive. I borrowed a Mac Mini for capturing the core dump.

 

[sbarton]

So can the Mac Pro 2013 boot OSX and Bootcamp from an external Thunderbolt 2 Enclosure? I have a Lacie little big disk 1TB which is comprised of 2 512GB drives which are stripped in OSX as a 1TB data volume (thats how I use it today). I have a 1TB 961 nvme internal drive partitioned into 2 volumes - one for OSX and one for Bootcamp (Windows 10).

In order to get around the BIOS issue with Mojave, NTFS, and NVME - can I reverse how I'm using the drives and move my boot volumes to the external drives (via thunderbolt)? I think the only unknown from my end is if Windows 10 can boot an external drive over thunderbolt.

 

[ktfn]

I got my "new" 2013 Mac Pro cylinder upgraded from the 4core to a 10core/3GHz cpu and added 64GB of RAM.
Also took the time to upgrade to a new NVMe 1TB Samsung EVO 960, and getting over 1300MB/sec formatted APFS. (running 10.13.6, fresh install)

Hey, just wanted to clarify one thing, since you've done this recently. I remember reading something along the lines that using an NVMe drive via an adapter in those cylinder Mac Pros results in very long loading times, caused by the mac first trying to find a "regular" (non-nvme) drive and only after failing that going to boot the nvme one. Can you confirm or deny this? How are the boot times with the new NVMe drive? Or is there maybe anything else that could be considered a con with this sort of upgrade?

 

[cesarvog]

I have not noticed major delays in booting time, except fot the very FIRST boot after exchanging the factory blade with the NVMe Samsung 960. A little extra time is indeed noticeable on every boot once the Apple logo appears with the gauge below. I don't know if the experts also refer to that phase as "boot time", but I have always thought of that as the OS loading phase.

I'm using the ST-NGFF2013-C adapter, which I got from the following link:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01CWWAENG/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I got two of those and installed one in my Mid 2013 13 inch MacBook Air, and the other in my cylinder Mac Pro (Late 2013) with a 3,5 GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon E5 and 16 GB of RAM.

Originally I got the previous gen. Sintech (much shorter) adapter for the MacBook Air and, the one I linked to above, for the Mac Pro, but decided to get a second one for the MacBook Air as well, as explained below.

With the shorter Sintech adapter, the MacBook Air would not resume from sleep after reopening the display. So I got another unit of the ST-NGFF2013-C.

I remember doing a reset of both the SMC and the PRAM on the MacBook Air, but have not done either on the cylinder Mac Pro. EDIT: Since I initially posted this, I decided to try SMC and PRAM reset on the Mac Pro too. It did not make any difference in booting/OS loading times.

Lastly, I did not time previous nor current boot times on either machine, so this is all based on how the machines seem to behave once turned on. Over regular usage, on the other hand, both machines are way more snappy in everything I do and I think the SSD upgrade is very much worthwhile.

YMMV.

 

[CodeJingle]

So can the Mac Pro 2013 boot OSX and Bootcamp from an external Thunderbolt 2 Enclosure?

The issue with mixing APFS and NTFS partitions on the same drive causing kernel crashes in both macOS and Windows 10 may be independent of whether you are booting from an internal or external volume.

In order to get around the BIOS issue with Mojave, NTFS, and NVME - can I reverse how I'm using the drives and move my boot volumes to the external drives (via thunderbolt)?

If you are having trouble updating your bios and you have swapped your internal drive for an NVMe then yes swap it back. If you want to permanently swap your NVMe to external that would probably be a better idea. It should be fine to boot into Windows 10 from an external NVMe drive connected over Thunderbolt 2. If it does not work then let me know. The hard part with Mojave and Bootcamp is that the Windows boot switcher app is borked, so you will have to manually switch your startup drive in the boot menu instead of from within Windows 10.

If you can switch your NVMe to only have APFS partition and no NTFS then it should not be a problem to keep the NVMe as your internal drive. Though please test yourself.
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I have not noticed major delays in booting time, except fot the very FIRST boot after exchanging the factory blade with the NVMe Samsung 960. A little extra time is indeed noticeable on every boot once the Apple logo appears with the gauge below. I don't know if the experts also refer to that phase as "boot time", but I have always thought of that as the OS loading phase.

The 'boot time' is the time from when you press the button that turns the machine on, till when you enter the login screen asking for your credentials (or when entering the desktop directly if your machine is configured to boot without a password). This can be 'cold boot' or 'warm boot' as well. This is without consideration for sleep/wake (for the purposes of this feedback consider sleep/wake is disabled). This is my informal definition of 'boot time', rather than declaring my buttocks to be an expert in macOS boot terminology.

The 'boot time' has changed for Mojave so my previous feedback is less valid. I may not have updated the first post to account for this yet. Mojave isn't actually out yet so I can update later. Though I have stopped testing newer releases of High Sierra, boot time may have changed there too.

 

[ktfn]

The 'boot time' has changed for Mojave so my previous feedback is less valid. I may not have updated the first post to account for this yet. Mojave isn't actually out yet so I can update later. Though I have stopped testing newer releases of High Sierra, boot time may have changed there too.

Can you give a short summary of the boot time situation? Does using an nvme drive increase boot time in either cold boot or warm boot? if so, by how much? How does Mojave change that? Does is make it better or worse?
Thanks

 

[cesarvog]

It should be fine to boot into Windows 10 from an external NVMe drive connected over Thunderbolt 2.

Yes, booting into Windows 10 from an external thunderbolt drive works. Please note that I "moved" my Windows 10 bootcamp partition from the internal factory blade to an external blade by using https://twocanoes.com/products/mac/winclone/

The external thunderbolt drive I use is the Transcend Jetdrive 855.

Please note that Windows 10 remains activated ONLY if you use this thunderbolt drive on the SAME system where the bootcamp partition was. I tried booting it from a different Mac and it worked, but Windows said it was not activated. Returning the external drive to the original Mac resulted in Windows showing as activated again. (Thanks, Lord).

The 'boot time' is the time from when you press the button that turns the machine on, till when you enter the login screen asking for your credentials (or when entering the desktop directly if your machine is configured to boot without a password). This can be 'cold boot' or 'warm boot' as well. This is without consideration for sleep/wake (for the purposes of this feedback consider sleep/wake is disabled). This is my informal definition of 'boot time', rather than declaring my buttocks to be an expert in macOS boot terminology.

Thanks for clarifying. By this definition, booting into High Sierra definitely takes some extra time with the Samsung 1TB 960 EVO NVMe.

 

[Selsk]

I just did a clean install of high sierra APFS on the original apple ssd (250gb). I kept the old bootcamp partition from when I was running Sierra. So far I have no issues. Able to switch back and forth with no panics.

 

[tsialex]

Apple updated the BootROM for MP61 with 10.14.1 DP1, now uses the new version string: 126.0.0.0.0

MP6,1

$IBIOSI$ MP61.88Z.0125.B00.1808170703
Copyright (c) 2005-2018 Apple Inc.  All rights reserved.
Apple ROM Version
  Model:        MP61
  EFI Version:  126.0.0.0.0
  Built by:     root@saumon
  Date:         Fri Aug 17 07:01:38 PDT 2018
  Revision:     126 (B&I)
  ROM Version:  F000_D00
  Build Type:   Official Build, Release
  Compiler:     Apple clang version 3.0 (tags/Apple/clang-211.10.1) (based on LLVM 3.0svn)

 

[RxJemm]

Apple updated the BootROM for MP61 with 10.14.1 DP1, now uses the new version string: 126.0.0.0.0

MP6,1

$IBIOSI$ MP61.88Z.0125.B00.1808170703
Copyright (c) 2005-2018 Apple Inc.  All rights reserved.
Apple ROM Version
  Model:        MP61
  EFI Version:  126.0.0.0.0
  Built by:     root@saumon
  Date:         Fri Aug 17 07:01:38 PDT 2018
  Revision:     126 (B&I)
  ROM Version:  F000_D00
  Build Type:   Official Build, Release
  Compiler:     Apple clang version 3.0 (tags/Apple/clang-211.10.1) (based on LLVM 3.0svn)

Good looking out! Let us see if it brings increased stability.

 

[Selsk]

Can anyone please give me a quick recap on nvme ssd speeds? Im took lazy to look through the 30+ pages.

Specifically, is it worth getting the Samsung Evo Pro over the regular Evo in my 2013 nMp.

Can the mac pro even utilize the top end speeds of the Evo Pro?

Thank you very much.

 

[sbarton]

Apple updated the BootROM for MP61 with 10.14.1 DP1, now uses the new version string: 126.0.0.0.0

Its odd that they would dump the first part that designates the actual machine (MP61.....). I wonder if this is a beta boot rom and that is how they designate before releasing final version. I loaded it on my 6,1. Can confirm it shows the same even when booted back into HS.

 

[tsialex]

Its odd that they would dump the first part that designates the actual machine (MP61.....). I wonder if this is a beta boot rom and that is how they designate before releasing final version. I loaded it on my 6,1. Can confirm it shows the same even when booted back into HS.

No, Apple changed the version string for EFI to the same used by iMac Pro and 2017/8 Macs.

Every supported Mac is getting this change with 10.14.b1 bootROM firmware upgrades. Mac Pro 5,1 got it with Mojave DP7.

CSM BIOS string continues with the prefix MP61…

 

[sbarton]

Ok quick update from me -

Im using a 1TB OEM PM961 in my 6,1 with the normal sintech adapter.

Yesterday I swapped out my drive with my original Apple SSD and upgraded it to Mojave. I then updated to the 10.14.1 public beta with the new boot rom described above.

Today I swapped my PM961 back in and installed 10.14 release.

My PM961 has 2 partitions including EFI. One with Mojave 10.14 (APFS) and One for Windows 10 (NTFS).

Update 1 - After several hours of trouble free reboots into windows 10 and back to OSX as well as cold starts I started getting KPs out the ass. Literally had 2 in the past 5 min. I have no idea what changed but it appears the problem remains, sadly 🙁

Update 2 - Well this is exciting. I've always wondered if my LaCie Little Big Disk 1tb Thunderbolt SSD could take NVME m.2 drives. It came from the factory with 2 PCIe AHCI m.2 ssd. I've successfully transplanted my PM961 from the internal connector of the 6,1 to one of the slots in the LBD and both volumes are recognized and I can boot into both OSX and Windows 10 from it. Note: I did experience 1 kernel panic so far (it was the first time I booted the drive) none since. The first time I booted the nvme partitions were not fully enumerated. I could see them in disk manager and system info, but the volumes would not mount (greyed out) - around this time I experienced KP and after subsequent reboot all volumes mounted and so far works great.

Update 3 - Been quite a day. I reinstalled my original Apple 512gb internal ssd and moved everything back over from my 1tb NVME drive. I rolled up a DIY external bootcamp driving using a Samsung EVO 850 SSD and a cheap USB 3.0 enclosure from my local Microcenter. Works great, get around 340mbs read/write which is more than I was expecting. Boots Windows 10 ever so slightly slower than the NVME drive and I think it will work out fine. I just use bootcamp as a gaming solution for my Mac Pro - nothing mission critical. Getting the partition cloned correctly so it booted, but I got it done. So mission to move all NVME partitions to alternatives locations accomplished.

Update 4 - NVME and Mojave have not been kind to me. I've got issues with the 2 NVME drives over thunderbolt. Disk manager can't format or mount them half the time and I've been unable to create a raid 0 set with them. Again, could be the controller I'm using which was designed pre-nvme however I was hoping that pcie over TB would be agnostic enough to let them work. However when I hook them up to my late 2013 Macbook Pro running HS they work fine and I'm able to do partition, format, create raid volumes etc, etc - no problems.

 

[cgscotto]

First, thanks to everyone who did the research for upgrading the Apple SSD to an NVMe drive. Following the directions in this thread, I successfully installed a Samsung 960 Pro 1TB NVMe blade using the Sintech NGFF-2013-C adapter and the EK heat sink. Like others that have upgraded using the Sintech adapter, the ssd mounting screw is at an angle. I want to replace it, but I don't want to just randomly try screws for fit. I have already tried an M4 size screw, which was too big. What is the correct size screw? I have literally searched for hours trying to find the screw size. It is like a national security secret. Is it an M2 or an M2.5? Most of the T8 screws for computers seem to be M2.5s.

UPDATE: The screw is definitely an M2.5. I got one at a local hardware store, but it is 8 mm, which I think is too long. I have a box of computer screws coming, and I bet the 6 or 7 mm will be perfect.

By the way, the Mac Pro is running great with the 960 Pro. Thanks again.

 

[juan99999]

I'm late to the game but would like to upgrade the SSD on my mac pro 6,1 to a 1TB samsung drive

1. Is there a complete set of instructions/video with part needed, where to buy, ... to do this on mojave?
2. Does the 970 work? (it's cheaper than 960 currently)
3. For people who have done it, do you recommend it? What are the main disadvantages (e.g. stability, upgrading to next OS, ...)
4. What true-life performance gains are you getting- seems that boot times are the same, once booted, do programs (photoshop) run faster?
5. Based on what I've ready, bootcamp doesn't won't work- that's a disadvantage for me- what have people done to work around this?

Thanks in advance.

 

[RxJemm]

I would also like to echo cgscotto's thanks to everyone in this forum that constributed to the research for this upgrade.

I used this ST-NGFF2013-C adapter :
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01CWWAENG/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Interestingly, the area of my adapter that goes near to the MacPro's ssd socket no longer has exposed contacts, so I did not use the Kapton tape. I reused the stock screw.

- It's been 4 weeks and not one issue! 🙂