OK...so let's say I buy the new 17" MacBook Pro with a non-interchangeable battery...

[akdj]

Remember when they (the manufacturers, not just Apple) started getting rid of serial ports....and parallel ports...in favor of USB Remember when floppy drives first were eliminated....or we went from the Standard Card (PCMICA, or whatever) slot to ExpressCard (I do, I shoot P2 from Panny and the cards only "fit" in the old, standard, not PCIx16 slot).....

USB has become the industry standard. Period. Alot of new PCs have NO F/W ports, when 3 years ago MOST had at least a single FW400 slot. It's not Apple's fault the industry didn't "adopt" FW...and I am a HUGE fan of FW 800, with a couple of powered field drives from OWC....have you ever tried to find a FW powered 2.5" portable drive? Few and far between....in fact, last weekend at Best Buy, out of about 75 choices, ONE had F/W....the rest are USB. Even the big boys, other than the Western Digital's model with all 3 (USB, 4 and 800)....none exist! Most peripherals have gone to strictly USB, and again...I am a FAN! I have 3 video cameras that are FW ONLY!

But that was yesterday's gear....Not much is being made with Firewire moving forward...even in the Pro Audio and Creative Graphic's world...all peripherals have USB, but only a couple have FireWire....and I am a BIG fan! But now it's time to move forward....and there is NO way you should get corrupt file errors with a 400/800 combo cord????

Time to move forward!

J

 

[erikistired]

Remember when they (the manufacturers, not just Apple) started getting rid of serial ports....and parallel ports...in favor of USB Remember when floppy drives first were eliminated....or we went from the Standard Card (PCMICA, or whatever) slot to ExpressCard (I do, I shoot P2 from Panny and the cards only "fit" in the old, standard, not PCIx16 slot).....

USB has become the industry standard. Period. Alot of new PCs have NO F/W ports, when 3 years ago MOST had at least a single FW400 slot. It's not Apple's fault the industry didn't "adopt" FW...and I am a HUGE fan of FW 800, with a couple of powered field drives from OWC....have you ever tried to find a FW powered 2.5" portable drive? Few and far between....in fact, last weekend at Best Buy, out of about 75 choices, ONE had F/W....the rest are USB. Even the big boys, other than the Western Digital's model with all 3 (USB, 4 and 800)....none exist! Most peripherals have gone to strictly USB, and again...I am a FAN! I have 3 video cameras that are FW ONLY!

But that was yesterday's gear....Not much is being made with Firewire moving forward...even in the Pro Audio and Creative Graphic's world...all peripherals have USB, but only a couple have FireWire....and I am a BIG fan! But now it's time to move forward....and there is NO way you should get corrupt file errors with a 400/800 combo cord????

Time to move forward!

J

PCs have hardly ever had FW ports. the random laptop might have one, and a few creative labs soundcards had one, but otherwise, you never saw FW on them. it's one of the things that attracted pros to the apple platform. just because best buy doesn't carry something doesn't make it obsolete.

 

[jeffy.dee-lux]

Research battery technology before making such assumptions.

lol... buddy, you'd be laughing if you knew what I do for a living. Lithium batteries have an extremely good coulombic efficiency, which means that almost no heat is generated during charging.

But you're right, if you actually look into the numbers for those external power supplies, they're pretty heavy for what they offer. And the sketchy magsafe connection is also a concern. But if Apple went at this, they could make an external battery with the same battery chemistry and that would latch onto the magsafe connector in a better way, maybe by being fit across the entire bottom case.

Either way, you didn't need to be snarky. What's your research on?

 

[Tosser]

Remember when they (the manufacturers, not just Apple) started getting rid of serial ports....and parallel ports...in favor of USB Remember when floppy drives first were eliminated....or we went from the Standard Card (PCMICA, or whatever) slot to ExpressCard (I do, I shoot P2 from Panny and the cards only "fit" in the old, standard, not PCIx16 slot).....

I don't care what you shoot. The reality is that you're comparing apples to oranges. There are NO heir to firewire. So nothing got "replaced". It got "nixed".

USB has become the industry standard.

And what "industry" are you talking about? It's certainly not audio or video or anything of the kind.

Period.

Alot of new PCs have NO F/W ports, when 3 years ago MOST had at least a single FW400 slot.

What the hell are you on about? Firewire equipped shipped computers rose 20 percent last year. Oh, I know, you ONLY look at the computers you happen to find at your nearest consumer outlet such as Best Buy.

It's not Apple's fault the industry didn't "adopt" FW...and I am a HUGE fan of FW 800, with a couple of powered field drives from OWC....have you ever tried to find a FW powered 2.5" portable drive? Few and far between....in fact, last weekend at Best Buy, out of about 75 choices, ONE had F/W....the rest are USB. Even the big boys, other than the Western Digital's model with all 3 (USB, 4 and 800)....none exist! Most peripherals have gone to strictly USB, and again...I am a FAN! I have 3 video cameras that are FW ONLY!

Perhaps you should try somewhere else than Best Buy.

But that was yesterday's gear....Not much is being made with Firewire moving forward...even in the Pro Audio and Creative Graphic's world...all peripherals have USB, but only a couple have FireWire....and I am a BIG fan!

You really need to do your research. First of, don't tell us lies. It's obvious you're far from a "FW-fan" as you purport to be. No, that is apparently only for effect, thinking it might give more weight to your argument. It doesn't help to go "I'm a BIG fan", before and after stating such unresearched nonsense and implying that USB is a move FORWARD. Seriously, get with the programme, will you.

But now it's time to move forward....and there is NO way you should get corrupt file errors with a 400/800 combo cord????

Again, do your effing research. He's not the only one having weird issues. There's a reason (even before the ntroduction of the Agere chipset, and even before support for Expresscard-fw adaptors were apparently nixed in OS X) that people, myself included would avoid adaptors at all cost if at all possible.

Time to move forward!

J

As I have stated before:
Moving back five or ten years technology-wise and having to use consumer quality gear is hardly "moving forward".

And again: Don't pretend to be a "fan" of something when you have no clue about it, and you really aren't. It really doesn't lend the rest of what you say much credit. In fact, I'd say the contrary is the case.

 

[Tosser]

lol... buddy, you'd be laughing if you knew what I do for a living. Lithium batteries have an extremely good coulombic efficiency, which means that almost no heat is generated during charging.

I'm not sure I would laugh. I'm pretty sure I would be crying, if what you imply is true.
The reality is, that you haven't done your research. You might know things in theory, but hte reality is quite different than what you thought.

But you're right, if you actually look into the numbers for those external power supplies, they're pretty heavy for what they offer. And the sketchy magsafe connection is also a concern. But if Apple went at this, they could make an external battery with the same battery chemistry and that would latch onto the magsafe connector in a better way, maybe by being fit across the entire bottom case.

I'm sorry, but that one had me laughing. First you guys argue that it wouldn't take "Much extra bulk and weight" to do this, and when your attention is directed to the problems introduced with your workaround, you go back to an idea of adding something that is bulky and ads even more weight – this time, you think it would be a neat solution to have something that straps the entire width of a 17" notebook.

Either way, you didn't need to be snarky. What's your research on?

What do you mean, "What's my research on?"? I live in the real world, and having done my research on these things, I know what's out there, and how things work _practically_. I am certainly not a scientist, but this is once again a case of theory vs. the real world.

P.S. I'm sorry about the snarkiness. It goes with the territory of people applauding everything Apple does and comes up with ill-researched hypothetical workarounds which doesn't work in the real world.

 

[jeffy.dee-lux]

what's not real world about lithium batteries not heating up while charging? It's an efficient process is all i'm saying, and that's not theory, it's something i've observed in practice many a time.

 

[Tosser]

what's not real world about lithium batteries not heating up while charging? It's an efficient process is all i'm saying, and that's not theory, it's something i've observed in practice many a time.

I am well aware that they don't heat up "much" They still get warm, though, and as such, it is inefficent to use one battery to charge another. Even something like a thirty percent real-world ineffieciency would mean you'd have to add that to the weight and bulk, not to mention it would have to run at a higher voltage in order to charge the internal, once again adding bulk and weight for a given amperage.

However, I was talking about the notion that because Li-Ion batteries are very compact energy-wise (compared to say, Lead-Acid, AGMs, NiMH, NiCad and the sort), that doesn't mean that it wouldn't a)add bulk, and b) add weight as was the argument from you at one time.

 

[jeffy.dee-lux]

I am well aware that they don't heat up "much" They still get warm, though, and as such, it is inefficent to use one battery to charge another. Even something like a thirty percent real-world ineffieciency would mean you'd have to add that to the weight and bulk, not to mention it would have to run at a higher voltage in order to charge the internal, once again adding bulk and weight for a given amperage.

Sorry to keep this thread going off topic, but the key point here is that the inefficiency is on the order of 1% and less with lithium batteries (look it up for yourself!), that was the key point I was trying to get across. As I pointed out earlier, none of this matters since the packs we're talking about don't even do any of this, but I just had to save face a little bit after being accused of not knowing my stuff when it comes to batteries.

 

[Abstract]

Tosser strikes again!



Next up, he'll argue with me about prostate cancer and therapy. He's just so gosh darned smart, he is.

 

[Tosser]

Sorry to keep this thread going off topic, but the key point here is that the inefficiency is on the order of 1% and less with lithium batteries (look it up for yourself!)

Yes, in theory. And for a single cell.
Just like "Li-Ion batteries don't have any memory effect". And that is true – at least until you couple it with other cells and a circuitry to measure how much battery is left.

, that was the key point I was trying to get across.

Yes, but things are far from always optimal in the real world.

As I pointed out earlier, none of this matters since the packs we're talking about don't even do any of this, but I just had to save face a little bit after being accused of not knowing my stuff when it comes to batteries.

Good. No need to save face. It's just a debate. And as you said, I was snarky (no, I'm not being sarcastic).

Tosser strikes again!

LOL

 

[apolloa]

Do you 2 guy's wear 2 foot thick bottle top glasses and a T Shirt with the Atari logo on it? Talk about geeky tech!

 

[Tosser]

Do you 2 guy's wear 2 foot thick bottle glasses and a T Shirt with the Atari logo on it? Talk about geeky tech!

Haha, no. From looking at me, you can't tell I'm somewhat of a geek. I dont' even have a T-shirt with any print whatsoever, nor glasses.

[edit: Turns out I'm not telling the truth: I have some "Tech Tops" from Icebreaker, and they do come with stitched logos, unfortunately]

It's just that from boating and using portable (pro) gear, battery tech is concern and thus an "interest born from necessity", if you will.

 

[175170]

Well, anyways- to keep this topic going...
I would probably go with a some sort of Solar Charger.
As a Previous Poster stated- the people who actually need removable batteries would be the 17" MacBook Pro Users.
Thus, Apple made a pretty big mistake testing these batteries out on these guys.

 

[PeterQC]

Just a question, why don't you buy an expresscard with firewire 400 ports (if it's possible) and one of these: http://www.batterygeek.net/Batterygeek-net-MacBook-MacBook-Pro-Battery-Packs-s/78.htm.

I don't really know what you do and in what conditions you work and do your photoshoots, I had a simple course in b&w photography and digital with some D40 & D50, and never shooted useing tethering, but that seems to me like a solution.

 

[Tosser]

We have already been over the expresscard-fw adaptors. That's a non-solution.
And that brick doesn't solve much, to be honest – something we also covered.

However, as far as external batt packs, go, those seem to be the closest bet so far. Assuming he really wants to stick with Apple, despite the slew of shortcomings recently.


Edit/add:

I went to Apple.com's site to see how many watts the internal battery was (it's 95 watts). This means that the external 130Watt pack you linked to, will yield some 30 percent extra time. Now, that is all fine, but if you look at the size of that thing, it's huge compared to what can fit inside the MBP, much bigger than the extra 30 percent would suggest. In fact, I'm sure it's at least three times as big as the internal. And propably weighs at least three times as much.

Anyway, while there, I was shocked to read the following (from here - clicky). It reminded me of the vacuum Jobs and Co seem to move themselves around in – just like Stevie-boys ignorant comments when they nixed firewire and when they went all-glossy. Anyway, here it is – my emphasis –*and my comments are in brackets:

The longest-lasting Mac notebook battery ever.
The battery in the new 17-inch MacBook Pro lasts up to 8 hours on a single charge1 and can be recharged up to 1000 times2 — compared with only 200 to 300 times for typical notebooks. [Do they really think that other computers doesn't use Li-Ion or Li-ion ploymer batteries? How long has it been since they actually took a gander at what's out there?] To do this, Apple engineers custom-designed lithium-polymer cells to create the largest possible battery, [eh, that's kind of the reason that everyone else uses polymer batteres. And I'm pretty sure they simply gave the measurements to a battery manufacturer and that was the end of it]then they went even further: They built the battery right into the computer, eliminating the space-consuming mechanisms and housings that standard removable batteries require. The result is a battery that’s 40 percent bigger than the previous generation [yes, but not because they ditched the mechanisms. They redesigned the computer entirely to do this] and offers up to 8 hours of wireless productivity on a single charge — all in a notebook that’s less than an inch thin, weighs just 6.6 pounds,3 and remains the same price as the previous-generation model.

Oh, but it gets better:

But building a battery that lasts up to 8 hours is only part of the story. Giving it a lifespan of up to 1000 recharges required breakthroughs in battery technology[yes. Wow!! What a breakthrough!! Apple has the exact same battery technology as everyone else, the only difference is that they try to pass it off as something THEY stood for]. Apple electro-chemists developed advanced chemistry that maintains the battery’s charging capabilities longer than everSay what? Since when has Apple been dabbling with electro chemistry? Are you freaking kidding me!? This is worse than if they tried to pretend that THEY designed and manufactured the CPUs]. And while most notebooks wear down their batteries by charging them at a constant rate[Again!? Seriously, who, other than ignorant fanboys will eat this? MOST recent laptops use Li-Ion or Li-ion Polymer batteries, and they certainly do not charge by using a "constant rate". Not even old iBooks did that.], the 17-inch MacBook Pro takes a different approach. Using an Apple-developed technology called Adaptive Charging, a microchip on the battery constantly communicates with the computer to determine the optimal way to charge its cells, adjusting the current up and down depending on a variety of conditions[Ah, yes, a new term for the exact same method that has been in use since Li-Ion batteries hit the market – in other words: A "smart charger" – just like every other Li-Ion/ L-I polymer gadget out there]. Combined, these advancements offer a dramatic improvement in battery lifespan: more than three times the lifespan of typical notebook batteries — up to five years.

I am serious: How on earth can they pretend they invented ANYTHING here?
By the way, as far as "smart chargers" go, they are all using "Adaptive charging". A method which was patented in 2001 and filed in June 2000:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6204634.html


Apple really has no shame. It's a pity so many swallow what they say without hesitation.

Edit #2:
Here's some smart chargers - eh, "adaptive chargers" to choose from:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=Smart-charger+li-ion&btnG=Search

Or, we could use yet another common term – howsaboot "intelligent charger":

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=intelligent+charger+li-ion&btnG=Search

 

[mojibake]

It just comes down to a bunch of design engineers looking at a bunch of product characteristics, how they relate to one another and the relative importance and cost of all of them. Basically, I'm sure they're decision was made because by their calculations, they'll sell more laptops this way.

Well exactly, I'm saying I think their decision was misguided, because of:

1. A sampling / cultural bias towards the mainstream urban US market where a power plug is never far away. If you're one of those "think different" users who are on the fringes, pushing the envelope, here's the news: Apple doesn't care about you any more.

2. An underachieving approach to chassis engineering. Sure, it's harder to make a strong chassis with a hole for the battery, but rather than putting the effort into finding a solution, they simply punted.

Moreover, the trend is disturbing because Apple seems committed to growing its product portfolio of sealed-battery products. Look at the history:
1. iPod (arguably not so bad)
2. iPhone (annoying but arguably solvable with aux power)
3. MacBook Air (really annoying, alienated long-distance travellers except those who fly Business Class)
4. MacBook Pro 17" (alienating the pros)
5. ???

If we don't complain loudly enough, this trend will continue, and those of you recommending "buy the 15-inch" or "buy the old model" will have nothing to say in a few years.

The screws on my MacBook Air, and my patience, are wearing thin.

 

[jeffy.dee-lux]

getting a longer cycle life could be as simple as using a larger pack and limiting the SOC range used. The SOC displayed to the user would still be 0-100% but that might correspond to something like 20-80% of the actual capacity of the pack. They probably do this already to a certain extent, but maybe they've upped the anty on this one. It all comes down to a marketing question in the end, balancing long life time against high capacity.

The Chevy Volt for example has a 16kWh pack, but will only use half of that, between 30% and 80%, so that GM can offer a 10 year warranty on the battery. They could've offered a car with an 70 mile or so all electric range, but they'd get backlash when the batteries start failing a few years early.

 

[Hmac]

I don't get why anyone would be surprised. Apple has never, never-ever-ever, been a company that caters to professionals, whether they be IT professionals or photography professionals. Yes, individual users may try to shoehorn their Apple equipment into a professional role, but why would anyone be so surprised when that isn't successful. The fact that the OP hasn't been able to stir any outrage equivalent to his with this thread pretty much verifies that.

Apple became successful in the consumer market, not the professional market. A non-removable battery in their flagship laptop is entirely in keeping with Apple, Inc.'s marketing history.

Get the 15", get the Lenovo, or get some form of external power. It appears that your needs are not part of Apple's market target.

 

[Brad Trent]

".....there is NO way you should get corrupt file errors with a 400/800 combo cord....."

Well...maybe up in Alaska where the North Pole has some magical effect on such things it doesn't happen, but down here in the real world of Manhattan it sure as Hell does, and just about every professional digital supplier is trying to figure it out because in an industry where professional photographers rely on high-megapixel digital backs that 90% of the time are...now sit down for this.....shot in tethered mode...the incidence of corrupted files shot using a 400-800 cable on the new series of Apple laptops with only a Firewire 800 port is now standard operating procedure! On my shoot Monday I had at least ten files over the course of a three hour shoot that were bad and I haven't had an issue like this, oh.....ever! It's a repeatable problem and whether it's the chipset in the computer or the simple fact that the transfer from a non-dedicated cable causes the corruption means little to me. As has been pointed out, using a Firewire 400 card is not the answer since it won't power a digital back, so for the foreseeable future guys like me will just have to eat those bad files.

And for those of you who have gotten your pants in a twist and accused me of being an angry old man, or worse, a cock, well...lemme just say that after tossing well over a hundred grand at Apple over the years I feel I have the right. As I sit here I'm staring at a Mac Pro, 2 G5's, 2 15" MacBook Pro's and an older G4 I use for a print server, and that's just in my studio...I have another G5 and an iMac at home...I'm heavily invested in this company's products as a major part of my business and every couple of years I'm forced to update to the next best thing. Apple's marketing strategy of dropping new products on the masses with very little warning about what they might contain may give the 'fanboys' out there a warm rush of blood to the head, but by dropping features that a lot of people have not only gotten used to but design their workflow and business around is more than just annoying, it costs a lotta money! Having some of you guys chime in with crap like, "Just buy another computer!", or, "Stop whining and adapt!", is hardly gonna help and quite honestly shows that you are simply willing to take what Apple tosses at you because you probably are an average user with limited needs. Have fun being average...I'm gonna keep complaining!

BT in NYC

 

[Hmac]

Looks to me like your choices are either "stop whining and adapt", or "keep whining and adapt". It certainly should be clear to you that the "average user" is Apple's market. That's where they make their money. Personally, I'm willing to take whatever Apple tosses at me because there is no other choice. And if it gets to the point where that doesn't work for me, I'll go buy something else.

Certainly you have the right, ALL of us Apple customers have the right to complain when Apple's market lineup doesn't meet our needs. But Apple has made it abundantly clear over the years that they aren't going to cater to every little market niche and no doubt that concept has been a key component of their rather stunning success over these last several years. I'm sure that if "removable battery for the 17-inch MBP" represents a profitable market, somebody will find a way to address it.

 

[PeterQC]

We have already been over the expresscard-fw adaptors. That's a non-solution.
And that brick doesn't solve much, to be honest – something we also covered.

However, as far as external batt packs, go, those seem to be the closest bet so far. Assuming he really wants to stick with Apple, despite the slew of shortcomings recently.

Why the express cards won't work? Sorry but I'm on the dark here. Lack of driver? Not compatibles?

I take this one won't work, heh? http://www.provantage.com/sonnet-technologies-fwusb2-e34~7SONT071.htm

 

[Tosser]

Why the express cards won't work? Sorry but I'm on the dark here. Lack of driver? Not compatibles?

No, it's not a lack of driver. It's simply buggy. But the moment people switch to Windows on the same computer, with the same card, it suddenly and magically works.

I take this one won't work, heh? http://www.provantage.com/sonnet-technologies-fwusb2-e34~7SONT071.htm

Well, there are two major firewire chipset. The world reknowned "always working" Texas Instrument (or "TI" for short) chipset and the inferiour Agere (Lucent) chipset which is also the one used in the new MacBook "pros".
The card you linked to doesn't say which chipset it uses, but if it is using the agere you will 100 percent experience problems. If it has the TI chipset you will most likely experience problems very quickly when transferring big files, or use it to transfer video or audio and/or use it for an audio interface.

The card itself will register as usual and seem to work outright, but artifacts and so on will soon pop up. So there, it's not "Uncompatible" as such, and the driver is there – it just seems "crippled" under OS X, where it works fine under Windows on the same computer with the same hardware and the same things attached. This is the reason I'm saying it looks like Apple "crippled" firewire support in the OS as well besides dumping the inferior Agere chipset on us. Because if it was a lack of driver, it wouldn't register or work (albeit "buggily") under os x, and if it was a hardware problem it wouldn't work on the same hardware but under windows.

 

[PeterQC]

No, it's not a lack of driver. It's simply buggy. But the moment people switch to Windows on the same computer, with the same card, it suddenly and magically works.


Well, there are two major firewire chipset. The world reknowned "always working" Texas Instrument (or "TI" for short) chipset and the inferiour Agere (Lucent) chipset which is also the one used in the new MacBook "pros".
The card you linked to doesn't say which chipset it uses, but if it is using the agere you will 100 percent experience problems. If it has the TI chipset you will most likely experience problems very quickly when transferring big files, or use it to transfer video or audio and/or use it for an audio interface.

The card itself will register as usual and seem to work outright, but artifacts and so on will soon pop up. So there, it's not "Uncompatible" as such, and the driver is there – it just seems "crippled" under OS X, where it works fine under Windows on the same computer with the same hardware and the same things attached. This is the reason I'm saying it looks like Apple "crippled" firewire support in the OS as well besides dumping the inferior Agere chipset on us. Because if it was a lack of driver, it wouldn't register or work (albeit "buggily") under os x, and if it was a hardware problem it wouldn't work on the same hardware but under windows.

I see. thank you.

 

[Mercellus]

I'd love to know why every thread seems to turn into a full-fledged flame-fest as of late.

 

[therealdt]

duh, just buy more that one MBP...

spoken like a true fanboy