Palm Pre Emulating an iPod to Accomplish iTunes Sync?

[Peace]

By purposefully crippling the ability of iTunes to sync with other devices. Going out of their way to purposefully code to do so. Syncing a playlist etc from within iTunes is much easier than dragging from folders. Arguing otherwise is asinine.


I'm still not sure what you're talking about. Yes the media is AAC. This thread is about Apple purposefully crippling iTunes to maintain leverage over a competitors product. Not other companies not supporting AAC .

This thread is NOT about Apple purposefully crippling iTunes to maintain leverage over a competitors product. This thread is about Palm "emulating an iPod" to crack into iTunes.

 

[Macminiintel]

Omg

This is appalling, we don't what a crappy Palm Pre device, thats why we have iPhones and iPod touches because they are better,

 

[MVApple]

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2172

Yeah and it seems the original poster of that message completely failed to take notice to the fact that all the 3rd party players on there are old and in a landfill somewhere.

 

[Sehnsucht]

According to Johansen, the Palm Pre must be specifically presenting itself as an Apple iPod to trick iTunes into syncing data with it. This is why iTunes displays "Syncing iPod" rather than "Syncing Pre" during the demos. Aside from transmitting Apple-specific Vendor Ids and Product Ids, the Palm Pre must also be responding to custom USB commands sent by iTunes to gather information about the device. Johansen also believes that there will likely be enough differences in the implementation that Apple will be able to break this compatibility with the next iTunes release.

 

[Macminiintel]

This sounds like some Palm ploy to whine about Apple being unfair because other devices can't interface with iTunes. Apple will come back with "iPods can't dock with Palm Desktop" and Palm will look very stupid.

HA HA, i bet thats gonna happen, but I'm glad iTunes is iPod & iPhone only, it gives it a nicer user experience and has to support fewer devices making much less problems for iTunes

 

[Chilz0r]

Thisssssss is a little shady.

I think this is the best thing to happen to the whole JesusPhone hype! More Power to Palm, More Pressure For Apple. Keep Up The Good Competition.

inb4 Apple is so righteous and holy.

 

[.Andy]

This thread is NOT about Apple purposefully crippling iTunes to maintain leverage over a competitors product. This thread is about Palm "emulating an iPod" to crack into iTunes.

And why can't palm (or any other company) just sync with iTunes? Because Apple purposefully, by updates, cripples the ability for itunes to do so. Apple does so to maintain their control over the media in iTunes, making it difficult to transfer said media to other devices, and hence leveraging an advantage for their own media players. It makes perfect business sense. It's horrible for customers however.

I also suggest you read the original story again carefully. I will copy and paste this quote for you;

Johansen also believes that there will likely be enough differences in the implementation that Apple will be able to break this compatibility with the next iTunes release.

 

[thedragonden]

No it isn't. It specificly refers to iPod, and not some other device.

Yes it is generic in the sense that iTunes only expects to sync to iPods (Hence, the menu item "Sync iPod"). Non-generic would be "iPod Shuffle" "iPod Touch" etc.

iTunes has built-in support for certain third-party devices.

You can transfer songs to third party devices, not sync those devices.

 

[ChuckG]

Shortly: Apple, Inc. V. Palm, Inc.

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2172

"To play AAC and AAC Protected songs, your iPod must have iPod Software 1.3 or later installed. Not all digital music players can play AAC songs and only iPod can play AAC Protected songs"

Like I said, the iTunes jukebox software probably had underlying support for these players, which carried on until Apple started selling protected music.

Jobs would never - ever - license iTunes support to Palm. Palm is really provoking Apple into a now expected legal war. Is Palm the new pawn for the mysterious group that wants to change Apple's successful business models?

 

[Macminiintel]

Apple should let them do it. Until Verizon picks it up- then break them both... right as verizon launches. Just to kick Verizon in the balls.

I don't think it would work i mean if Apple allowed them to do this, that would mean Apple would also have to offer some form of customer support for making the Palm pre work in iTunes, and its not even an Apple branded product, so they'll defiantly be stopping it

 

[redkamel]

Why buy from a company that makes it difficult for the media you buy to be used on devices made by other companies?

I can't see why anybody would be on Apple's side in this

Its not more difficult, you pay a few cents more and then you can put the song on your phone just as you normally would if you had bought it from anywhere else. While it does suck, its not like they went out of their way to stop you. You can even make all your songs DRM free at once.

In regards to using iTunes, while some phones do use iTunes, I THINK they have limited syncing ability, per Apple coding it in; whereas Pre, as a smart phone, needs to have full syncing capability for it to be worth anything (otherwise you have to sync to two programs, so you might as well make the second program do music too).

Why be on Apples side? they run iTunes. They can pick what it plays with. If Pre wants to sync with iTunes, it needs to do so in a fair and supported manner, like other phones. Since it competes with the iPhone, I doubt that will come cheap, and I would be surprised if a deal went through. By emulating an iphone, Palm is essentially cheating and using another companies sync software without their permission. Thats why some people are on Apples side, since they, you know, designed the software.

If people want to make hacks for itunes to sync with Pre, and then sell it, go for it. If Palm want to make a deal, thats fine. But if one company wants to circumvent a legal way for software support to use another companies resources, thats illegal, in my book.

Well, first I agree with DVD jon, as this is likely the easiest and simplest way to assure syncability...and all they have to do is just update Pre over the air with new Product codes. Now whats the legal and ethical difference between a third party software and impersonating ID's? I dont really know. But I think a third party software is like someone modding their own car. They own the software, they can alter it if they like. Apple runs itunes and you choose if you want to update or not too. Maybe if Palm made an itunes add on, it would be legal

But if Palm is impersonating Apple products, that just seems wrong somehow
maybe its the fact that the Palm is actively trying to use a Apple's software and sync interface, without permission I imagine, by impersonating Apple's own product vs writing their own management or program, is wrong (or illegal, but Im no lawyer) because I dont think companies should interfere/abuse competitors software. It then opens up a whole new box, I mean, can they make an iTunes that prevents installing other sync software? Should iPhones impersonate Pre's and use their App store and vice versa...with company support?

At any rate, I should probably go to bed, but I dont think its kosher for Palm to have Pre fake its an apple product so it can use apple's sync services.

 

[Macminiintel]

I really don't see why Apple would get upset about this. More devices syncing to iTunes = more iTunes users = more money in Apple's pockets.

no not really as the article did say non iTunes bought music, so Apple won't get any money from it. It would also go like this


More Devices syncing to iTunes= more users= syncing issues and problems= less money for Apple

 

[Macminiintel]

Doesn't John Rubenstein work for Palm now???.

He use to work for Apple, maybe they will get away with it, though I hope not

 

[Eso]

except maybe you're forgetting the fact that apple has people who specifically keep track of their employees online for this reason...

That's just frightening. Do they install keyloggers too? Who would know right - I mean is there even anti-virus software for the Mac?

 

[Evangelion]

By purposefully crippling the ability of iTunes to sync with other devices. Going out of their way to purposefully code to do so. Syncing a playlist etc from within iTunes is much easier than dragging from folders. Arguing otherwise is asinine.

So, just because their software does not work with third-party hardware (it does work on some hardware), they are "criplling" that hardware? Does the Zune-software support other hardware besides Zunes?

And like I said: the contents of your itunes-library is in your hard-drive, neatly organized in folders. There's nothing stopping you from using those files and folders in some other piece of software that does sync with your hardware. Just because iTunes might not work with the hardware you have does NOT mean that the contents of your iTunes-library is not available to that hardware. You just have to use some other software to sync those files over.

I'm still not sure what you're talking about. Yes the media is AAC. This thread is about Apple purposefully crippling iTunes to maintain leverage over a competitors product.

Apple is not required to support other hardware in their software. And you are NOT prevented from using your iTunes-library in some other piece of hardware. The contents is directly accessible through files and folder on your HD.

Not other companies not supporting AAC .

Your complaint was that "OMG, I can't use my iTunes-library with my third-party hardware!", when the fact is that if the third-party hardware supports AAC, contents of your library will work fine in that hardware. Why is this so difficult to understand? Sure, you might not be able to use iTunes for the task, but there's nothing stopping you from using some other software instead. Accessing the contents of your iTunes-library is not difficult since it's just a bunch of files and folders in your HD.

 

[pavvento]

Ya, Palm is seriously walking on thin ice with the whole multi-touch thing and UI infringements and now this with iTunes and all their former Apple employees, WOW!!!

I know Palm has lots of patents too, but this is looking like it could turn into a big messy fight.

I do not think that Apple will let the Pre sync with iTunes. I could be wrong since I'm not an executive at Apple, but this is my opinion. Watch the next iTunes update come out way ahead of schedule in the next week or two!

I think the Pre looks cool and BY FAR the best and probably only REAL competition for the iPhone yet. But I am all for Apple protecting their ecosystem and IP.

Fixed that for you.

 

[ChuckG]

LOL.

At this point, I wonder if Kim-Jung Il is on the Palm Board of Directors.

Desperate Palm, so 'ronery' of ideas.

 

[.Andy]

Its not more difficult, you pay a few cents more and then you can put the song on your phone just as you normally would if you had bought it from anywhere else. While it does suck, its not like they went out of their way to stop you.

I never once said they go out of their way to stop you. The most convenient method for the consumer is to just sync their devices with iTunes as they would an iPod. Dragging and dropping from deeper files is more difficult. Period.

To reiterate. I don't argue that it doesn't make perfect business sense for apple to do this. However from a consumer point of view (i.e. everyone who doesn't own shares in apple) it is annoying, frustrating, and an unnecessary hassle.

So, just because their software does not work with third-party hardware (it does work on some hardware), they are "criplling" that hardware?

Absolutely. They purposefully write code to block syncing ability.

Does the Zune-software support other hardware besides Zunes?

I have no idea. Being MS I presume that it doesn't allow other devices to sync that don't pay up. However that doesn't mean that I'm cool with Apple doing it nor am I accepting of MS doing it.

And like I said: the contents of your itunes-library is in your hard-drive, neatly organized in folders. There's nothing stopping you from using those files and folders in some other piece of software that does sync with your hardware.

You are rallying against an argument that I've not made. My point was that it's more difficult to drag and drop from folders than to sync my playlists. Not that it is impossible to do so .

Just because iTunes might not work with the hardware you have does NOT mean that the contents of your iTunes-library is not available to that hardware. You just have to use some other software to sync those files over.

Again this isn't an argument that I've made. I suggest you read my posts again.

Apple is not required to support other hardware in their software.

I never said they did

Your complaint was that "OMG, I can't use my iTunes-library with my third-party hardware!", when the fact is that if the third-party hardware supports AAC, contents of your library will work fine in that hardware.

No that wasn't my argument at all. Here it is again.

Why buy from a company that makes it difficult for the media you buy to be used on devices made by other companies?

 

[knightlie]

Whosays it violates anything.

Fanboys. The Palm Pre has brought out the very worst of the smug arrogance that the Apple userbase is derided for. It's embarrassing.

Personally I hope the Pre is successful and popular amongst people who the iPhone doesn't suit. So far the biggest complaints are that the Pre is ugly and doesn't play games, not exactly deal-breaking issues.

As for the argument about no apps and no App Store - neither did the iPhone when it was released.

I would imagine the only thing this syncing issue violates is how USB devices work - Palm are apparently pretending to be Apple via the Vendor ID, and pretending their device is an Apple device. I wonder if this comes under some kind of USB licensing agreement? I can't see Apples Vendor ID being covered by their IP.

 

[Evangelion]

Absolutely. They purposefully write code to block syncing ability.

you could say the same about every piece of software which doesn't support every piece of hardware out there.

You are rallying against argument that I've not made. My point was that it's more difficult to drag and drop from folders than to sync my playlists. Not that it is impossible to do so .

Who said anything about "dragging and dropping"? I said use some other software that does the syncing for you. Like I have said over and over: the contents of your iTunes-library is directly available on your HD. You could use some other piece of software that uses those files and folders as it's library and syncs that content to your device.

If Apple went out of their way to make those files invisible (like, using a singly monolithic file that contains your entire library) then you might have a point. But they don't.

Apple is under no obligation to support other hardware in their software. But whether you can use itunes with your hardware shouldn't be the issue here, the issue is that can you use your iTunes-library with your hardware. And there's nothing stopping you from doing that. Nothing at all.

Again this isn't an argument that I've made. I suggest you read my posts again.

I did. Your complaint is that it's hard to use your media with third-party hardware. And that is EXACTLY what I have been arguing against! It's NOT hard to use that media in some other hardware, since the media is directly accessible on your HD!

you DIDN'T say "why is it so hard to use iTunes with this third party hardware?". what you basically said is "Why is it so hard to use my content with third-party hardware?". But it isn't. Your content is available as files and folders on your HD, so you could use some third-party software that accesses those files and folders and syncs them to your device. Apple is under no obligation do provide that service to you in iTunes, but they don't go out of their way to stop you from syncing your content to third-party hardware using third-part software.

the key here is NOT iTunes, it's the contents of the iTunes-library. iTunes might not work with your third-party hardware, but your library does.

Comprende?

 

[pavvento]

you could say the same about every piece of software which doesn't support every piece of hardware out there.



Who said anything about "dragging and dropping"? I said use some other software that does the syncing for you. Like I have said over and over: the contents of your iTunes-library is directly available on your HD. You could use some other piece of software that uses those files and folders as it's library and syncs that content to your device.

If Apple went out of their way to make those files invisible (like, using a singly monolithic file that contains your entire library) then you might have a point. But they don't.

Apple is under no obligation to support other hardware in their software. But whether you can use itunes with your hardware shouldn't be the issue here, the issue is that can you use your iTunes-library with your hardware. And there's nothing stopping you from doing that. Nothing at all.



I did. Your complaint is that it's hard to use your media with third-party hardware. And that is EXACTLY what I have been arguing against! It's NOT hard to use that media in some other hardware, since the media is directly accessible on your HD!

you DIDN'T say "why is it so hard to use iTunes with this third party hardware?". what you basically said is "Why is it so hard to use my content with third-party hardware?". But it isn't. Your content is available as files and folders on your HD, so you could use some third-party software that accesses those files and folders and syncs them to your device. Apple is under no obligation do provide that service to you in iTunes, but they don't go out of their way to stop you from syncing your content to third-party hardware using third-part software.

the key here is NOT iTunes, it's the contents of the iTunes-library. iTunes might not work with your third-party hardware, but your library does.

Comprende?

I don't understand how this argument has been continuing. Is there anything easier than plugging in an mp3 player and syncing it with iTunes? No. Therefore, any other means of syncing it is more difficult. More is the operative word. It can still be manageable, doable, accessible, enjoyable, easy, and any other adjective you'd like to come up with, but it is more difficult.

 

[.Andy]

you could say the same about every piece of software which doesn't support every piece of hardware out there.

Yes and i would.

Who said anything about "dragging and dropping"? I said use some other software that does the syncing for you.

Which is still more difficult than just syncing with itunes. Explain to the general consumer that they have to install two media players.

If Apple went out of their way to make those files invisible (like, using a singly monolithic file that contains your entire library) then you might have a point. But they don't.

Again you are arguing against points I've not made. Apple blocking other players from syncing with itunes makes it more difficult for consumers. You have correctly identified by way of hypothetical that if apple were to hide your music files it would be more difficult.

Apple is under no obligation to support other hardware in their software.

No. And I have never said they had any such obligation. Did I?

But whether you can use itunes with your hardware shouldn't be the issue here, the issue is that can you use your iTunes-library with your hardware. And there's nothing stopping you from doing that. Nothing at all.

Again an argument I've not made. Never once have I claimed that apple are stopping you from using your media in alternate ways. Just that by blocking syncing that they've made it more difficult.

I did. Your complaint is that it's hard to use your media with third-party hardware.

No. It was without itunes syncing it is more difficult than just syncing with itunes.

you DIDN'T say "why is it so hard to use iTunes with this third party hardware?". what you basically said is "Why is it so hard to use my content with third-party hardware?". But it isn't.

I never complained it was "so hard". My point is a simple one. It's more convenient for the consumer to simply sync a device with itunes than it is to;

Your content is available as files and folders on your HD, so you could use some third-party software that accesses those files and folders and syncs them to your device.

Are you seriously going to continue to argue that jumping through these hoops is no more difficult that just straight syncing from itunes?

the key here is NOT iTunes, it's the contents of the iTunes-library. iTunes might not work with your third-party hardware, but your library does.

Comprende?

Yes I comprehend what you're saying. And I completely agree with you that Apple has no obligation to support other hardware, nor is it impossible to utilise additional software or dragging and dropping to use other media players. However just that these methods are more difficult, and less convenient for consumers than simply syncing with itunes.

Apple blocking 3rd party syncing makes total sense from a business point of view. However it's unnecessarily difficult from a consumer point of view.

I don't understand how this argument has been continuing. Is there anything easier than plugging in an mp3 player and syncing it with iTunes? No. Therefore, any other means of syncing it is more difficult. More is the operative word. It can still be manageable, doable, accessible, enjoyable, easy, and any other adjective you'd like to come up with, but it is more difficult.

Thanks pavvento. I'm glad someone gets it.

 

[Shookster]

Palm could have just bundled Mozilla Songbird with the Pre:
http://getsongbird.com/

It's free and open source, and they could easily build a converter to convert your iTunes playlists to Songbird playlists (much like Firefox asks to import your Safari favorites and preferences when you run it for the first time).

I'm not sure what they're doing actually violates any laws but it's definitely a an underhand tactic.

Desperate companies resort to desperate measures and there's no company more desperate than Palm right now.

If the Pre fails, Palm is probably history. So it's no surprise that they want to succeed no matter what.

 

[Chundles]

iTunes 9.0: Fire zee missiles!

Can't see this lasting long at all, though, if it's emulating an iPod and not relying on the ability of iTunes to sync with old devices then how could this be stopped?

Apple are going to stomp on this one pretty quickly, I reckon we'll see an update very soon indeed.

 

[harry20larry]

I would like Apple to release an update that would brick any Palm Pre that tries to sync, geez guys, go make your own software or use doubletwist.