Palm Pre Roundup: Public Launch Tomorrow, iTunes 8.2 Syncing

[Macman1993]

I think you are right that getting itunes syncing back into control will be hard. I can see the next ipod updates having more physical security for requiring itunes that if duplicated by another company will be grounds for serious law suits.

For a company like pre I see this being a huge problem with trying to keep up with itunes. For the hacking jailbreaking community it is perfectly fine for them to say the newest itunes broke us please wait for an update. For a legitimate corporation having to publish that its users have to wait for its next hack to sync with itunes that alone turns off a lot of people who don't want to be involved with hacks.

I think apple could pull off on a new software update for all ipods/iphones adding files that will break syncing on the device if certain files aren't present on the device. iTunes sends out file A to device if file B is found all good if file B is not found that device is "jammed" and syncing will not work. Apple wouldn't get in trouble for this they would just say well sorry we sent out software upgrades to our products to prevent something like this, to fix the device bring your ipod/iphone to an apple store and we will fix it. O wait you are using something we don't make the software for sorry not our problem.

Yes my idea is cruel but I don't pay for palm to be the best I pay for apple to be the best.

 

[*LTD*]

Most everything Apple does is anti-competitive and restrictive.

I'd do things that we're as close to anti-competitive as possible as well, just shy of inviting more legal trouble than I can handle. Why should Apple give anyone else even so much as an inch?? Apple is already being copied left and right.

And Apple's "restrictive" policies and their control of the entire package is 99.99% of the reason they are not only in business today, but teaching the rest of the industry how to do tech right. Or would you rather NOT have OS X, Macs, iPods and iPhones? Hey, there's always Creative, SanDisk, Windows, generic PCs, etc. All the freedom you could ever want!

People who criticize Apple's "restrictive" policies, and then turn around and go on enjoying OS X, virus-free, maintenance free, and generally accept all the OTHER core ways they are "restrictive", really shouldn't be here. You can't have it both ways. The entire user experience (which must be attended to in its entirety by Apple) extends to much more than you would personally like.

 

[aristotle]

Huge.

http://www.macdailynews.com/index.p...pres_big_debut_at_sprints_flagship_nyc_store/

Wow at that pace, they should sell a few thousand by the end of the week nation-wide.

 

[mccldwll]

Sure allowing other companies to use their stuff is "nice" but when I put money into apple my hope is not that they will use my money to be nice to palm but that they will take my money and turn it into more money.

You didn't put any money into aapl that aapl is using. If, in fact, you did invest in aapl, then you simply bought common stock on the open market from a previous investor. You have a miniscule equity position, and you empower the BOD to make appropriate decisions.

 

[aristotle]

This is interesting (the reason is obvious [why WOULD Sprint tell people and then watch them leave their store??], but it's still interesting.)

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/06/palm-pre-launch/


Posted by: bugmenot | 06/6/09 | 11:52 am
I arrived at the local Sprint store at 10 this morning, and waited in line for over half an hour.

When I finally reached the counter, I was told “We actually don’t have any more, but we can ship when they become avail…”
I interrupted and asked why they did not tell all the people waiting in line that. I was told…”We aren’t allowed to say that.” They aren’t allowed to say that to the people waiting?

I did the other people in line a favor, loudly saying “They don’t have any more Pres, and they won’t tell you that.” as I left. The entire line left as well.

I am going to switch and get an iPhone, something I should have done years ago. GOODBYE, Sprint. This is not how you treat a customer of over a decade!

I'm sorry to hear that any company would treat their loyal customers that way. As much as I'd like to see valid competition to spur Apple forward, I don't think Palm's Pre is going to make it and I'm afraid that Palm will be out of business by this time next year. The reason why supplies were so limited and why they were launching on Sprint is because Palm could not afford a large production run needed to satisfy GSM providers around to world or to even satisfy the needs of Verizon.

I'm afraid that Sprint will have to either switch to LTE along with Verizon to join the GSM providers around the world migrating to LTE (which is the fourth generation of GSM technology) or die a slow death as one of the few remaining CDMA networks in the world.

Your switch over to AT&T will be at a good time when they have finally upgraded their networks to support high speed data access on devices like the iPhone and by 2011, you will have a choice of carriers to use your iPhone on once both AT&T and Verizon are both on LTE.

 

[KFujiwara]

Those posters must have had crappy luck. The employees at the Sprint store I went to told everyone exactly how many they had in (which was more than enough for everyone in line). They also gave out vouchers for as many Pre's they had in stock, so no one was promised one that did not receive one. So far, it's a great phone, really the only phone that can go against the iPhone in terms of the UI. Syncs with iTunes pretty easily, too. Plus, so far, battery life is only a small amount less than the iPhones that are within the household, in my opinion.

 

[Cameront9]

So now the USB consortium is also writing laws? Some of you folks around here don't have the slightest clue of what the word "illegal" means, but you throw it into every discussion nonetheless.

It's time you start realizing that corporations are not countries, and that CEOs are no kings... Or gods. And that not everything they tell you is the truth and that not everything they do is legal just because they put it in an EULA. Or a specification. And here's another news flash: Just because you get a patent on something that doesn't mean that the patent is valid. Not in other countries and not even in the corporate-friendly United States. When you folks go and look up the word "illegal", also try looking up "prior art".

Ok, illegal is not the right word, I would agree. Against the agreed-to rules, then. Palm agreed to abide by the USB rules in order to get the USB logo on their package. They broke the rules. So the USB forum could take action against them if they wanted to.

 

[alhedges]

People who think that Apple shouldn't at least be *concerned* about being sued for an anti-trust violation should they deliberately break syncing with other devices are either uninformed or in denial. Apple remembers what happened to MS, even if you don't.

Specifically, MS was found to have an OS monopoly because it had 90%+ of the market. That's fine; it's not illegal to have a monopoly. What is illegal is to use your monopoly power in *one* area to leverage yourself in *a different* area. This is/was the problem of MS "bundling" IE into its OS - it was using its monopoly power in the OS area to gain share in the browser area. Courts found that a browser is separate from an OS, and made MS: (1) pay a big fine; and (2) make changes to its OS so that it played more nicely with other browsers.

The iTunes store has 70% of the online music market. Conservatively, the iTunes program itself has at least an 80% market share. So what Apple should be concerned about is a court finding that: (1) iTunes has a monopoly; and (2) iTunes is using its monopoly power to unfairly fence out competition in the MP3 player market.

Now I'm not saying that this is necessarily the case; anti-trust law is complicated, and there are several other variables that might cut in Apple's favor - perhaps there are lower barriers to entry, for example. And 80% isn't 90%. But it is an issue, and I'm sure that Apple is aware of it and actively monitoring the situation.

 

[Goona]

People who think that Apple shouldn't at least be *concerned* about being sued for an anti-trust violation should they deliberately break syncing with other devices are either uninformed or in denial. Apple remembers what happened to MS, even if you don't.

Specifically, MS was found to have an OS monopoly because it had 90%+ of the market. That's fine; it's not illegal to have a monopoly. What is illegal is to use your monopoly power in *one* area to leverage yourself in *a different* area. This is/was the problem of MS "bundling" IE into its OS - it was using its monopoly power in the OS area to gain share in the browser area. Courts found that a browser is separate from an OS, and made MS: (1) pay a big fine; and (2) make changes to its OS so that it played more nicely with other browsers.

The iTunes store has 70% of the online music market. Conservatively, the iTunes program itself has at least an 80% market share. So what Apple should be concerned about is a court finding that: (1) iTunes has a monopoly; and (2) iTunes is using its monopoly power to unfairly fence out competition in the MP3 player market.

Now I'm not saying that this is necessarily the case; anti-trust law is complicated, and there are several other variables that might cut in Apple's favor - perhaps there are lower barriers to entry, for example. And 80% isn't 90%. But it is an issue, and I'm sure that Apple is aware of it and actively monitoring the situation.

All this is hearsay. Palm is just a lazy company who doesn't want to develop software like RIM developed for Blackberries to sync with Itunes. Then we have their supporters shouting anti-competitive bull. Why didn't Palm develop their own itunes when Apple was busy developing theirs and building up it's brand. Now they want to leech of Apple's hard work. Why haven't they made the Pre be able to sync with the Zune software, that's right they know nobody wants to use it, they just want to ride of the most popular service out there. Instead of sitting with Apple and coming to an agreement, they attempt to become "hackers". I hope Apple blocks it and if they want to take it to court, Apple has the money and lawyers to fight them.

 

[zacman]

Ok, illegal is not the right word, I would agree. Against the agreed-to rules, then. Palm agreed to abide by the USB rules in order to get the USB logo on their package.

They didn't violate any USB rules. The Palm Pre doesn't include the Apple vendor ID in the device itself. It's an USB driver extension written by Palm for OS X that identifies the Palm as an Apple ipod (touch).

 

[zacman]

Why didn't Palm develop their own itunes when Apple was busy developing theirs

Probably because people like you would then shout "The Palm tunes sucks!!!!!! itunes is much better. Why don't they support the best media player for the mac. What losers!!!!!"

 

[kdarling]

What is in question is Pre's mode of syncing with iTunes, which makes itself use Apple's own USB device ID. Spoofing another company's device ID is illegal according to the USB consortium.

Ok, illegal is not the right word, I would agree. Against the agreed-to rules, then. Palm agreed to abide by the USB rules in order to get the USB logo on their package. They broke the rules. So the USB forum could take action against them if they wanted to.

This is the correct answer. According to these rules agreed upon when getting a vendor id...

"Each Vendor ID Number is assigned to one company for its sole and exclusive use [...] They may not be [...] used by others, directly or indirectly [...]. Unauthorized use [...] are strictly prohibited."

So, yes, the USB-IF could take away Palm's ability to use the USB logo... assuming they use Apple's ID, that is. Do they?

 

[TuffLuffJimmy]

They didn't violate any USB rules. The Palm Pre doesn't include the Apple vendor ID in the device itself. It's an USB driver extension written by Palm for OS X that identifies the Palm as an Apple ipod (touch).

except it works on Windows too, so you're just talking out of your backside here.

 

[zap2]

. Why didn't Palm develop their own itunes when Apple was busy developing theirs and building up it's brand. .

Because now if someone has an iPhone, moving to the Pre isn't nearly as large of an issue. That person can keeping using iTunes. This was huge news for me, because if I ever moved to the Pre, I'd be without good music software on my desktop.

 

[Cameront9]

This is the correct answer. According to these rules agreed upon when getting a vendor id...

"Each Vendor ID Number is assigned to one company for its sole and exclusive use [...] They may not be [...] used by others, directly or indirectly [...]. Unauthorized use [...] are strictly prohibited."

So, yes, the USB-IF could take away Palm's ability to use the USB logo... assuming they use Apple's ID, that is. Do they?

According to DVDJon, they did:

http://nanocr.eu/2009/06/04/palm-pre-usb-hack-confirmed/

 

[kdarling]

Because now if someone has an iPhone, moving to the Pre isn't nearly as large of an issue. That person can keeping using iTunes. This was huge news for me, because if I ever moved to the Pre, I'd be without good music software on my desktop.

No need to use iTunes directly. There are programs for Windows and Mac that sync any device that presents itself as a disk drive, using the information stored by iTunes.

iTunes Agent for PC

iTunes my Walkman for Mac

 

[zacman]

except it works on Windows too, so you're just talking out of your backside here.

Include "and for Windows" in my sentence.

It's even confirmed here: http://nanocr.eu/2009/06/04/palm-pre-usb-hack-confirmed/

"The root USB node (IOUSBDevice) still identifies the device as a Palm Pre (not visible in the image above)."

So they don't use 0x106b at all in the Palm Pre.

 

[Goona]

Probably because people like you would then shout "The Palm tunes sucks!!!!!! itunes is much better. Why don't they support the best media player for the mac. What losers!!!!!"

Why didn't they develop software like RIM developed to sync with itunes?

 

[Goona]

Because now if someone has an iPhone, moving to the Pre isn't nearly as large of an issue. That person can keeping using iTunes. This was huge news for me, because if I ever moved to the Pre, I'd be without good music software on my desktop.

I wonder why RIM didn't think about this when they developed their own software to sync with itunes, I guess they didn't want to take the easier way out? They wanted to actually put in some work.

 

[zacman]

Why didn't they develop software like RIM developed to sync with itunes?

They did. It's even included in the Palm Pre package... Why not get one and check yourself.

Using iTunes just makes it much more easy for most Mac users. You can choose between using iTunes itself or the included Palm Sync software.

 

[hefeglass]

ok, so i just got back from the sprint store...played with the pre for a while.


its a nice phone..BUT THE KEYBOARD IS EVEN WORSE than the reviews..
honestly, i wanted to see it for myself, because i figured the reviewers might not be giving keyboard the benefit of the doubt..

well..they were.

its horrible..i couldnt type normally because i had to lift one thumb before placing the other, since one thumb would make it impossible to access the key next to it..
very poor hardware...very nice software. the screen and multitouch are great...

 

[Goona]

They did. It's even included in the Palm Pre package... Why not get one and check yourself.

Using iTunes just makes it much more easy for most Mac users. You can choose between using iTunes itself or the included Palm Sync software.

I wonder why RIM didn't make it simpler for its customers?

 

[*LTD*]

ok, so i just got back from the sprint store...played with the pre for a while.


its a nice phone..BUT THE KEYBOARD IS EVEN WORSE than the reviews..
honestly, i wanted to see it for myself, because i figured the reviewers might not be giving keyboard the benefit of the doubt..

well..they were.

its horrible..i couldnt type normally because i had to lift one thumb before placing the other, since one thumb would make it impossible to access the key next to it..
very poor hardware...very nice software. the screen and multitouch are great...

Palm wants it both ways - Touch AND keyboard. Redundant. But anyway, you make an interesting point that was also borne out by the reviews. We'll see the extent of this keyboard fallout pretty soon, I'm guessing.

Apple made a decision almost two years ago: no antiquated, pushy-button, moving-parts keyboard. It was a bold move, but it has paid off.

 

[aristotle]

Palm wants it both ways - Touch AND keyboard. Redundant. But anyway, you make an interesting point that was also borne out by the reviews. We'll see the extent of this keyboard fallout pretty soon, I'm guessing.

Apparently there is no onscreen keyboard to supplement the physical one so when you are browsing in landscape mode and want to type something, you have to turn it to portrait mode and use the physical keypad.

 

[Goona]

Apparently there is no onscreen keyboard to supplement the physical one so when you are browsing in landscape mode and want to type something, you have to turn it to portrait mode and use the physical keypad.

That's pretty whack.