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How many pre owners are there? Hardly enough to clog up Apple's support team surely?

It doesn't matter now, but what about later? And what about other third party handset makers who would want to get into iTunes?

If this is so, why do Apple allow 3rd party apps to integrate wtih iTunes to sync? do the 3rd parties have to pay Apple for these features?

Support for the app store apps not made by apple are done from the software company that made the app as part of their agreement with Apple. No such agreement exists between Apple and Palm.

Once again, Apple has no issue with people using 3rd party software to sync with iTunes (Nokia multimedia transfer for example). The same costs are incurred by Apple for those who sync in this way so it isn't a valid argument.

But Apple only supports the Sync services portion of these programs, not the programs or the devices themselves. The vast majority of support costs go to the software makers who developed the program and not Apple.
 
Does Apple prevent you from drag-n-dropping music to the Pre? No. Is drag-n-dropping so difficult now? :rolleyes:

In my book worthless argument. The playlist are not saved and that is a huge thing that people are going to want to be saved when syncing up with another device. So drag and drop is worthless.

Any system that can only read the libary is worthless unless it can sync up the playlist.

Do you mean MS allows other players to sync with the Zune software? That would be new to me.

Well prepared to be blown away MS DOES allo0w others players to sync with it. the Zune uses Microsoft Windows media player on windows. As far as Media player care it will let just about any device sync up with it.

Hell apple doing this and locking out everyone else is just giving Microsoft very good ammo to throw at Apple in ads.

For example "Unlike Apple Microsoft is not racist when it comes other MP3. players. Microsoft is open to letting any one sync up with Windows media player ............"
 
What a lot of people here are missing...

I hear a lot of folks talking about Apple having a monopoly, whatever, and allowing other devices to sync, etc.

Apple doesn't have to allow this behavior from Palm as long as the Palm Pre keeps showing up in iTunes AS AN IPOD.

That's violating a lot of stuff right there, for iTunes to be tricked to sync with it because the device is pretending to be an Apple product, instead of Palm doing like motorola and other companies have done, and licensing the rights for their devices to sync with iTunes. A denial of licensing could possibly be seen by the courts as some kind of monopoly play, possibly. This, however? This with the Palm Pre pretending to be an ipod, software wise? That is something Apple can put their foot down about, no question.
 
Seriously

They either need to make nice with Apple and get them to officially allow the syncing, or they need to partner with another media player. This is a slippery slope for Palm and not one that instills confidence in the user base, and more importantly the potential user base.
 
Lame on Apple's part. One more reason not to use iTunes...

I can't imagine how this is lame on Apple's part. It's Palm writing their software to pretend to be a device it isn't so it can work with software they didn't write. Palm just needs to partner with Apple or someone else and create an official solution for their customers.
 
Thanks pdjudd for the replies.

It doesn't matter now, but what about later? And what about other third party handset makers who would want to get into iTunes?

This is true. Depending on the success of WebOS, perhaps Apple are better off nipping this in the bud in case it does do well

Support for the app store apps not made by apple are done from the software company that made the app as part of their agreement with Apple. No such agreement exists between Apple and Palm.

Do the 3rd parties have to sign an agreement with Apple to use the 3rd party support for syncing or is it an open standard? (I'm not sure on this)

But Apple only supports the Sync services portion of these programs, not the programs or the devices themselves. The vast majority of support costs go to the software makers who developed the program and not Apple.
Do 3rd parties have to pay Apple to sync with iTunes? If not, why are people saying Apple are out of pocket with the Pre directly syncing with iTunes. If there was a 3rd party solution Apple would still pick up the cost of bandwidth for music and iTunes updates. I really can't see how Apple are any worse off cos of this.
 
In my book worthless argument. The playlist are not saved and that is a huge thing that people are going to want to be saved when syncing up with another device. So drag and drop is worthless.

Any system that can only read the library is worthless unless it can sync up the playlist.

Which is why Apple publishes an XML file with the iTUnes library and developed SyncServices - to provide support for more advanced syncing.
 
It is pro game.

It is just like some of the smack talking that happens in pro football, basketball games. If you talk smack and that takes the other player off his game and you score... that is part of the game.

If the work arounds cost palm $500 to do and are legal. And they cost Apple $3000 to do and they can't really stop them. If that $3,000 of Apple isn't spent on a feature that really would be hard for Palm to compete against then Palm made progress.

Frankly there is also the fanatical Apple fan boy blow back here also. If it is a no harm, no foul interoperability feature then the Apple-can-do-no-wrong folks are arguing all over all the boards about how Apple is so justified in denying end user functionality.

It is a small hack.

If no one is calling Apple support about Pre synching then it is almost as anal retentive on Apples part as it is on Palm.

If it costs Palm more money that it does Apple then it is a small but too expensive hack. In that case it is dumb for Palm.

Finally it also points out that the sync process really isn't all that proprietary. There is probably a very simple protocol that would allow iTunes (or any other music library software) to sync with any other device on the other end of a usb connection.

An analogy would be like you needed the Microsoft IIS server to talk to IE but wouldn't talk to Firefox or Sarfari. Seriously what is so complicated here. It is a list of files and if not there copy. Before there was DRM stuff to worry about. ( didn't make sense to copy files that wouldn't run a non apple MP3 player. ) If the files run anywhere now .... what is the point of being anal retentive about which device transfer the file to?

The iPod sync protocol for iTunes isn't a publicly documented protocol. That means if Apple discovers the need to alter the protocol (to handle a new feature or fix a bug, for example) they don't need to tell anyone else what's going on. By piggy-backing on this, Palm has set themselves up for having to reverse engineer any changes Apple makes to the protocol in order to maintain compatibility. What are they going to do if, at some point, Apple decides that encrypting the transfer protocol is a sensible thing to do? (Say for example, allowing over-the-air syncing, and just using the same protocol over the wire for the sake of consistency and simplicity.) Palm has put themselves in a situation where they might be *unable* to provide syncing to their own device for a period of time because they didn't want to bother doing it the correct way in the first place.

The public interface for third-party devices is designed to be stable and maintain compatibility across releases. It's a bundle of XML which describes the iTunes Library's structure. All Palm has to do is write an app which interfaces with iTunes through this *public*, documented interface, and they can handle syncing however they need to for their device.

What's worse, based on a basic descriptions I've seen of the method Apple used to block the initial piggy-back ride (check for an Apple USB manufacturer ID as well as an iPod USB device ID), this could mean that iTunes (and OS X) are now incapable of distinguishing a Pre from an iPod. What happens now when Apple releases a firmware update for the iPod model in question? Will it try to overwrite the Pre's firmware? What happens if it tries? What happens if it 'kinda' succeeds? Who is responsible for the damage caused? I'd say Palm would actually be the responsible party, but the backlash from the *user* would be targeted at Apple, because it was Apple's software that caused their phone to die.

Also, by going this piggy-back route, Palm is violating their contract with the USB Consortium (the group which managed, allocates, and maintains the list of USB manufacturer/device IDs which allow computers to determine what device has just been plugged in). In doing so, they've opened themselves up to the potential *loss* of their USB IDs. ALL OF THEM.

In short, there's a multitude of reasons why Palm's insistance on pretending the Pre is an iPod is a *stupid* decision.
 
Do the 3rd parties have to sign an agreement with Apple to use the 3rd party support for syncing or is it an open standard? (I'm not sure on this)
If we are talking about sync services then I presume that they are covered by the same terms that cover the developer program. I am not a developer, but I know that these services are simply licensed out, but as far as I am aware are free to use.

Do 3rd parties have to pay Apple to sync with iTunes? If not, why are people saying Apple are out of pocket with the Pre directly syncing with iTunes. If there was a 3rd party solution Apple would still pick up the cost of bandwidth for music and iTunes updates. I really can't see how Apple are any worse off cos of this.

For the app store? Yes, it would be part of their distribution deal with Apple. If we are talking about apps like the missing sync, no. Apples developer tools are free to download and use. The XML file is readily available for anybody to use.

As far as bandwidth costs go, they are figured into the cost of the track. APple doesn't really care what happen to the DRM free music or any other content (app store excluded) since Apple doesn't own any real rights outside of distribution). As long as the tracks are paid for and any DRM is not craked, Apple's involvement ends when the transaction is closed.
 
If I was Apple I would put a web os virus or initiate the kill switch into iTunes so that next time if it detects Palm it sends a virus to the device to infect it or sends a kill switch to disable the device completely and erase all data.

:D

Then you would be subject to a class action lawsuit and possible criminal action.

If this was Microsoft vs Palm, I bet the posts would be for Palm.
 
For the app store? Yes, it would be part of their distribution deal with Apple. If we are talking about apps like the missing sync, no. Apples developer tools are free to download and use. The XML file is readily available for anybody to use.

As far as bandwidth costs go, they are figured into the cost of the track. APple doesn't really care what happen to the DRM free music or any other content (app store excluded) since Apple doesn't own any real rights outside of distribution). As long as the tracks are paid for and any DRM is not craked, Apple's involvement ends when the transaction is closed.

That's exactly what I was on about. I used to use Nokia Multimedia Transfer to sync a playlist to my old 5800XpressMusic.

Once again, thanks for the replies. It's nice to see some level headed maturity these boards and all of your points were valid! :cool:
 
As the primary media player of OSX iTunes should synch to as many devices as possible, or at the very least that have a license to do so. It just goes to show how little respect Apple actually has for its customers.
 
As the primary media player of OSX iTunes should synch to as many devices as possible, or at the very least that have a license to do so. It just goes to show how little respect Apple actually has for its customers.

Wrong. Being a media player, even the default one, does not obligate anyone to do anything with it. That goes double with closed source, proprietary software.

ETA: One should point out that iTunes is just a GUI interface to manage a library. All the playback is done by Quicktime and its supporting libraries and engines. iTunes is a library and a front end. Quicktime is the player.
 
Even worse then if its a library. Apple should be providing this functionality or letting other manufacturers extend it to reduce customer confusion. This doesn't add any credulity to the claim that Macs "just work".
 
I also believe this is a losing battle for Apple, otherwise they would have done something legally about it.

Afterall, itunes allows a user to burn mp3 or audio discs directly onto CD media. Why not allow a direct dump of music to other media, such as a 3rd party flash drive (Palm Pre)? By Apple attempting to restrict what type of media can accept their audio files places them on dangerous grounds. I think Palm has the upper hand which is why Apple hasn't filed anything against them.

I imagine more companies will attempt direct syncing via iTunes. Because iTunes sells music to users, the user should have the option of placing it on any device. I don't think Apple can get around that without the DOJ reviewing it and setting a possilble precedence against their favor.

It's really genius on Palm's part to take advantage of this.
 
I also believe this is a losing battle for Apple, otherwise they would have done something legally about it.

Afterall, itunes allows a user to burn mp3 or audio discs directly onto CD media. Why not allow a direct dump of music to other media, such as a 3rd party flash drive (Palm Pre)? By Apple attempting to restrict what type of media can accept their audio files places them on dangerous grounds. I think Palm has the upper hand which is why Apple hasn't filed anything against them.

I imagine more companies will attempt direct syncing via iTunes. Because iTunes sells music to users, the user should have the option of placing it on any device. I don't think Apple can get around that without the DOJ reviewing it and setting a possilble precedence against their favor.

It's really genius on Palm's part to take advantage of this.
couldnt of put it better myself!
as a former iphone user and now a pre user im lovin syncing my existing library with my pre
 
I also believe this is a losing battle for Apple, otherwise they would have done something legally about it.

Afterall, itunes allows a user to burn mp3 or audio discs directly onto CD media. Why not allow a direct dump of music to other media, such as a 3rd party flash drive (Palm Pre)? By Apple attempting to restrict what type of media can accept their audio files places them on dangerous grounds. I think Palm has the upper hand which is why Apple hasn't filed anything against them.

I imagine more companies will attempt direct syncing via iTunes. Because iTunes sells music to users, the user should have the option of placing it on any device. I don't think Apple can get around that without the DOJ reviewing it and setting a possilble precedence against their favor.

It's really genius on Palm's part to take advantage of this.

Apple owns iTunes and therefore can do whatever they want when it comes to non-Apple devices. They never promised that iTunes would sync with third party devices and therefore have no obligation to provide such solution. And since Apple does not restrict the playing of media bought from within iTunes to Apple devices, no one can demand that their device must sync with iTunes. Every single song bought in iTunes can be transferred to another music management software where one can create playlists, tag the songs, etc. None of the makers of these music management packages have an obligation to sync with any hardware - it is their free choice as it is Apple's choice to what devices they want to support.
 
Even worse then if its a library. Apple should be providing this functionality or letting other manufacturers extend it to reduce customer confusion. This doesn't add any credulity to the claim that Macs "just work".


Apple already provides an index of what the iTunes library is comprised of along with the frameworks to interact with that file. Being a library does not obligate anything either.
 
I used to have respect for Palm, but not anymore.

They're sad and pathetic, and will never be a serious competitor in the smartphone arena again.

Are you kiding me? you are the one that is sad and pathetic with you whiny comment Honestly listen to your self.

On a side now Why the hell are pre owners wanting to use Itunes for sync? there are many other better Media syncing Applications out there now.
 
Apple already provides an index of what the iTunes library is comprised of along with the frameworks to interact with that file. Being a library does not obligate anything either.

Yadayadayada. This file only enables developers to write their own software to synch with the iTunes library. If I am the typical ignorant end user why would I even know to use the software from the manufacturer? I see my songs in iTunes, I want to be able to press a few buttons and make it move to my own device.

A typical Apple argument against Windows is that it is bloated and full of 3rd party apps. This attitude from Apple would mean OSX would be exactly the same, if it were not for the fact that most manufacturers couldn't be bothered to target a 4-5% marketshare.

No wonder Apple can make billions if they treat their customers like this and their customers DEFEND them for it.
 
Apple owns iTunes and therefore can do whatever they want when it comes to non-Apple devices. They never promised that iTunes would sync with third party devices and therefore have no obligation to provide such solution. And since Apple does not restrict the playing of media bought from within iTunes to Apple devices, no one can demand that their device must sync with iTunes. Every single song bought in iTunes can be transferred to another music management software where one can create playlists, tag the songs, etc. None of the makers of these music management packages have an obligation to sync with any hardware - it is their free choice as it is Apple's choice to what devices they want to support.

I agree Apple should only worry about their own products' support. However they can't do "whatever they want" to their program that will intentially brick non-Apple devices as that could also land them in legal trouble. I foresee Apple waving the white flag and doubt there will be a cat and mouse game of itunes coming out every week.

I also recall Apple's last statement about this issue when Palm first announced itunes integration. Apple basically said they will not support other products in future releases. They didn't quite say they would go after companies overriding their syncing capabilities.
 
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