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Piracy and Mac OS X

Re: Re: Piracy sucks!

Originally posted by dynamicd


If i'm not mistaken, microsoft did something like this with xp and a friend of mine got around it by pirating the corporate edition, i think, which only requires the serial when installing. I'm not sure if this is how it works or if apple even has something like a corporate edition of OS X. Somebody correct me if i'm wrong.
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Your friend has a MAJOR shock coming when XP Service Pack 1 is released.

He needs to research all the particulars of XP Service Pack 1 IMMEDIATELY.

Also, does he like Windows Update? Tell him to use it while he can because once XP SP1 hits the street it's all over for him.

On top of that, they appear to be re-structuring the entire XP Corporate authentication system.

TL
 
Re: Re: Re: Piracy sucks!

Originally posted by TechLarry


Your friend has a MAJOR shock coming when XP Service Pack 1 is released.

He needs to research all the particulars of XP Service Pack 1 IMMEDIATELY.

Also, does he like Windows Update? Tell him to use it while he can because once XP SP1 hits the street it's all over for him.

On top of that, they appear to be re-structuring the entire XP Corporate authentication system.

TL
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True except for certain editions like Dells OEM edition and a few other companies. They still have no authorization.

The thing is that people are going to have to take time to figure out how to get around it again.

All part of the palladium chip scheme....
 
Originally posted by peterjhill
It would be so simple for Apple to protect their copyrights, that it isn't even funny. Apple has the advantage over Microsoft in that it makes the Hardware as well as the software.

anyone who has run the Apple System Profiler knows that one of the tidbits that it gives you is the System Serial Number. When you install the system, it could have you go to a web page at apple, enter in your license key, the system would send your hardware serial number BUT NOT STORE THE HARDWARE SERIAL! (to solve privacy issues that people will invariably have), hash the two together using a secure algorithm, then either give you a new code to enter, or better yet, just set the final key into the OS. So unless someone has a way to fake the hardware serial number, they could take your software key, and it would be useless to them.

I would not be unhappy if they stored your hardware serial also, that way if you reinstalled your system, they would have an easier time reverifiying your right to install the OS. Otherwise they could have blank boxes under the software license code that you could write in your final install code into.

So, yeah, it would be trivial for apple to do this. Complain if you must how unfair it is, but it would be fully within their right to do so. They are out to make a profit after all.
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What you describe is Windows Product Activation (Windows XP) at it's roots and it SUCKS!

I have been left stranded THREE times by this GD system, and I own a LEGAL copy of the software!

Each time I had to call the Microsoft "Mothership" and obtain 'permission' to use the software that I paid for.

I was so furious with just the concept of such a thing.

Now you are recommending Apple do this?

Someone get a broom and beat this guy over the head with it, quick!

TL
 
"Are you saying that there is any difference between rich and poor under the law? There isn't. If you're poor and you steal something, you're in trouble. If you're rich and you steal something, you're in trouble."

Incorrect.

If you are rich and steal, you can afford better lawyers to get you off the hook. Or you know someone who gets you off the hook.

Or, you just buy the damned hook!

TL
 
Originally posted by TechLarry


What you describe is Windows Product Activation (Windows XP) at it's roots and it SUCKS!
I have been left stranded THREE times by this GD system, and I own a LEGAL copy of the software!
Each time I had to call the Microsoft "Mothership" and obtain 'permission' to use the software that I paid for.
I was so furious with just the concept of such a thing.
Now you are recommending Apple do this?
Someone get a broom and beat this guy over the head with it, quick!
TL
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There is a huge difference (for the third time now) between Microsoft and Apple. Microsoft has to guess that the computer is the same one that the key was generated for. Upgrading your hardware would confuse it.

Every mac motherboard has a unique serial number that can be read by the OS. Therefore it would be pretty much fool proof. Within 30 days of install, be connected to the Internet, type in your software license key, it then hashes your hardware SN with your software SN, creates a secure certificate that lets the OS go happily along.

Even better, if it stored the hardware and software key together, if you would need to reinstall your OS, it could figure out that you have already licensed it, pull out your hardware key, and let you go.

No waiting on the phone begging for MS to give you a new activation key. If you don't like it, too bad! Apple has all the right in the world to protect its investment in software development time. As for it being so difficult to enter a software license key, I guess you haven't played any games on a computer lately, lets see, StarWars GB, Diablo 2, they both have unique keys that need to be entered in upon install.

I don't see why a legitimate user and purchaser should be upset at having to enter a license key one time. If I pay over $100 for software, I damn well don't want some P2P bandwidth hog using the software for free, just because their ethics differ from mine.
 
Originally posted by TechLarry
"Are you saying that there is any difference between rich and poor under the law? There isn't. If you're poor and you steal something, you're in trouble. If you're rich and you steal something, you're in trouble."
Incorrect.
If you are rich and steal, you can afford better lawyers to get you off the hook. Or you know someone who gets you off the hook.
Or, you just buy the damned hook!
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That may work for a while, but if enough people get pissed off, then even the lawmakers will turn on you. Enron for example. American's tolerate a certain amount of infulence by corporations in the lawmaking process, but there is a limit. If a politician realizes that their re-election chances are going to go to zero by ignoring some problem, they will react as the public wishes.

Apple has gone to bat for users already when it comes to issues that I feel are important. They understand the users right to rip their own CDs and then burn custom CDs or use them in iPods. Apple fought hard over MPEG-4 licensing terms. Sure, they are using these issues to sell more devices, but hey, they are devices that I want. Apple is not trying to influence all the Cupertino judges to let their employees drink and drive, or speed through residential neighborhoods.

Your argument is not very compelling to me, not that it was even a complete argument. What are you trying to say? Are you trying to insinuate that Apple is trying to get special treatment with respect to fighting piracy of its software (the topic of this thread)?
 
Originally posted by peterjhill


In case you didn't see my earlier post. It would be trivial for apple to use a software SN from the OS Box, and hash it with the hardware SN from your computer (see apple system profiler) and create a unique key for your OS, that will only work on your computer. Apple could have a private key, say 4096 bits, then do a pgp like thing to encrypt your hardware and software keys together. The resulting key could be sent electronically to your computer. You would only have to enter in your software SN. It would keep track of the hardware SN that it got from your computer when you installed it, together with your software SN, so that it would not allow the software SN to be installed on any other machine. Software update could be used to reverify keys. And even better, if the same software SN was seen from, say, over 100 different hardware SN's, then the next software update could disable your OS.

I would find that all very amusing, as a person who will be paying for their upgrade to 10.2, and have no sympathy for people who steal software.

It is not a moral issue. It is a legal issue. It may be wrong in the former, but in the US, it is definitely wrong in the latter to steal software, even from yourself
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Anyone find that broom yet ?

TL
 
Originally posted by peterjhill


That may work for a while, but if enough people get pissed off, then even the lawmakers will turn on you. Enron for example. American's tolerate a certain amount of infulence by corporations in the lawmaking process, but there is a limit. If a politician realizes that their re-election chances are going to go to zero by ignoring some problem, they will react as the public wishes.

Apple has gone to bat for users already when it comes to issues that I feel are important. They understand the users right to rip their own CDs and then burn custom CDs or use them in iPods. Apple fought hard over MPEG-4 licensing terms. Sure, they are using these issues to sell more devices, but hey, they are devices that I want. Apple is not trying to influence all the Cupertino judges to let their employees drink and drive, or speed through residential neighborhoods.

Your argument is not very compelling to me, not that it was even a complete argument. What are you trying to say? Are you trying to insinuate that Apple is trying to get special treatment with respect to fighting piracy of its software (the topic of this thread)?
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First, you screwed up the quote and mixed comments from two different people.

We'll let that slide for now...

Secondly, referring to the likes of Enron, Worldcom, and now Quest it would seem, is hardly appropriate here.

These are multi-BILLION dollar fiasco's that are affecting millions of people, the stock market, and the economy in general.

And I'm sorry it wasn't compelling enough for you. Any more will cost you $9.95, please...

TL
 
It's not a legal issue, or a moral issue, it's a BAD BUSINESS ISSUE, and CONSUMER RIGHTS, and REEMING THE CONSUMER....

Also, software BY LAW cannot transmit information without your permission, EVEN if it is in the EULA. That is called deception and something else technical, and MS is already in trouble for that.

Law is a lot harder than repeating what some dumbbutt says on TV... or reading it...

I work in a large law firm 😛
 
Originally posted by peterjhill


There is a huge difference (for the third time now) between Microsoft and Apple. Microsoft has to guess that the computer is the same one that the key was generated for. Upgrading your hardware would confuse it.

Every mac motherboard has a unique serial number that can be read by the OS. Therefore it would be pretty much fool proof. Within 30 days of install, be connected to the Internet, type in your software license key, it then hashes your hardware SN with your software SN, creates a secure certificate that lets the OS go happily along.

Even better, if it stored the hardware and software key together, if you would need to reinstall your OS, it could figure out that you have already licensed it, pull out your hardware key, and let you go.

No waiting on the phone begging for MS to give you a new activation key. If you don't like it, too bad! Apple has all the right in the world to protect its investment in software development time. As for it being so difficult to enter a software license key, I guess you haven't played any games on a computer lately, lets see, StarWars GB, Diablo 2, they both have unique keys that need to be entered in upon install.

I don't see why a legitimate user and purchaser should be upset at having to enter a license key one time. If I pay over $100 for software, I damn well don't want some P2P bandwidth hog using the software for free, just because their ethics differ from mine.
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I never said entering a serial number is a problem. I don't think it is.

What I have a problem with is the fact that you have tossed a 'cure' out there and haven't invested ONE MINUTE of thought into the repercussions of that 'cure'.

If you take the time to THINK about this you will understand.

TL
 
Originally posted by GPTurismo
It's not a legal issue, or a moral issue, it's a BAD BUSINESS ISSUE, and CONSUMER RIGHTS, and REEMING THE CONSUMER....

Also, software BY LAW cannot transmit information without your permission, EVEN if it is in the EULA. That is called deception and something else technical, and MS is already in trouble for that.

Law is a lot harder than repeating what some dumbbutt says on TV... or reading it...

I work in a large law firm 😛
Click to expand...

As what...the coffee boy?

I work in a university, does that mean I know everything that my university teaches? Please.

A EULA is a contract between the software company and the purchaser. It stipulates what you can and can't do with it. Once you click on "Agree" you are bound, legally, to follow the stipulations of said contract (see, I can sound like I know what I'm talking about, too).
 
Originally posted by TechLarry
I never said entering a serial number is a problem. I don't think it is.

What I have a problem with is the fact that you have tossed a 'cure' out there and haven't invested ONE MINUTE of thought into the repercussions of that 'cure'.

If you take the time to THINK about this you will understand.

TL
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Since you've obviously spent so much more time THINKING about this, why don't you enlighten us as to why the proposed situation wouldn't work.

Facts speak louder than empty rhetoric.
 
Originally posted by GPTurismo
It's not a legal issue, or a moral issue, it's a BAD BUSINESS ISSUE, and CONSUMER RIGHTS, and REEMING THE CONSUMER....
Click to expand...
REEMING = Reaming

Also, software BY LAW cannot transmit information without your permission, EVEN if it is in the EULA. That is called deception and something else technical, and MS is already in trouble for that.
Click to expand...
And guess what... During the install/product validation, they can ask your permission to send the data, even show you what they are sending (the software SN and the hardware SN). They can tell you that you have the option not to have the information sent, but if you do, that the product will cease to function after 30 days.
They could warn you before you start the install that this will be required, and the consequences if it can not be performed. If you do not have an internet connection, they can come up with a toll free number that you can use to give them your SNs and they could give you the hashed validation code.

Law is a lot harder than repeating what some dumbbutt says on TV... or reading it...
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Yes, and you are a lawyer?

I work in a large law firm 😛
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that's nice, here's a cookie. I think I am being pretty realistic about a fair and easy way Apple could protect its rights. Oh yeah, btw, if Apple did use something like this, than the DMCA (which I personally disagree with many portions of) would come into effect, since any hacking of the validation code would be in effect an attempt to get around digital copy protection.

That would be a federal offense.
 
<SARCASIM>
Hmmm, I can't justify $700 for Photoshop and probably wouldn't need 90% of the features it has. I can, however, afford the forthcoming $99 Photoshop Elements and it has everything I need. Heck, even the small shareware fee for GraphicConverter would give me about all I need too. --BUT-- Why spend anything when I can just download and burn a copy of Photoshop for the cost of a blank CD-R?
</SARCASIM>
🙄

Just because I would not have bought Photoshop does not make pirating it a a victimless crime. I would have taken $$ away from retailers selling Elements (as well as Adobe) or Mr. Lemke who writes GraphicConverter.

Many of us pirated a lot of crap as kids, but most of us grew up.

As for the wonderful, charity work people are doing in/near Mexico, good for you! You are breaking the law though. If the Apple rep you contacted was stupid enough to not comp' you some software, why are you using it? (You did contact an Apple sales rep, right?) Maybe the people can learn on a PC and some of that free editing software. It's not as good as FCP, but the basics of NLE are there and I've seen some really good stuff come out of them. (Heck, wasn't EditDV free for a while there?) If I were you, I'd be so pissed at Apple for not helping out that I'd either move to another product and/or send a letter to the local press.
 
Originally posted by peterjhill


If a politician realizes that their re-election chances are going to go to zero by ignoring some problem, they will react as the public wishes.
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Since when do politicians react as the public wishes?

You must be living in some alternative reality.

As I recall the public wished (by voting) someone else as the rightful president of the USA. Guess what they got? 😀 😀 😀
 
Originally posted by chuckzee

Since when do politicians react as the public wishes?
You must be living in some alternative reality.
As I recall the public wished (by voting) someone else as the rightful president of the USA. Guess what they got?
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Is your English that bad? Didn't you see a perfectly good example? If politicians feel like their job is threatened, and they like their job, they react just like anyone else does. They start doing their jobs, as their boss wants them to, otherwise they face the music and get fired.

This isn't Yugoslavia that I am living in. I could start some real **** about F**ked up politics by reminding people what the previous government has done. Maybe I should take it easy on you, if you really are from Yugoslavia. Maybe you were oppressed by your government while it committed crimes against humanity. I hope things are better there now.

The US certainally is not a perfect society, I would never make that claim. It is a system that works after a fashion, and usually pretty well. The person whom I voted for president is now a professor, yeah, that pi55ed me off. I'm over it though and dealing with it, hoping that Bush will not be around after the next election. I also think that there is too much nationalism going on in the US as a whole, much of it influenced by the media, which I think has more control over citizens of my country than the government or other corporations.

There are some issues I have with current laws, so I make sure that when I vote, I understand how the person I am voting for feels about these issues. Then I watch how they vote, and make sure they don't pi55 me off. If they do, I remember that the next time I vote. I also have written more than a few letters to my representives in congress speaking out on issues that are important to me, particularly when they come up for discussion or vote.

So, no I don't live in an alternate reality, like the one that thinks that stealing software is the thing to do to get back at evil governments or corporations. I live in a society in which I want to be respected by respecting the legal rights of others.
 
The Jaguar pricing for "new customers" is definitely OK - GREAT OS - but why are there no upgrades for those of us who have been paying since the public beta. As a matter of principle, there should be an official upgrade - say $99 - especially for early adopters! No rebates from Amazon, no coupons, no free stuff… Just a honest upgrade for everyone with an OS X receipt.

For the first time, I'm losing faith/enthusiasm...

Apple: why no upgrades for OS X buyers? Many basically good guys may turn to piracy… And then we'll have "increased security" - great!
 
OS X Cost

$130 is not that much for an OS upgrade like this. (I say as I duck from the flying tomatos!)

I went from Win NT 4.0 Workstation to Win 2000 Pro - after rebate it ended up being about the same price. (It was something like $199 for the upgrade minus a $70 rebate) The full version was $299.

Today, Win XP Pro Upgrade is the same $199 while the full version is $299.

OS X 10.1 to 10.2 is at least as big an upgrade as Win NT 4.0 to Win 2000 Pro was. (We've not migrated to XP at my current job so I cannot speak to it's advantages over 2000. Obviously it's not worth it to us to move to it.)

The only think that bothers me ( an OS X user since before the Preview Release ) is that "up-to-date" program's deadline is so soon to the release of 10.2. I would have hoped they would have backed it up to 90 days prior to the release or something.


PS: And, no the "since before the Preview Release" comment doesn't mean I HotLined a copy - my company had a Premier Level Developer license that seeded us with the developer releases so there! 😛
 
Originally posted by dricci
Yeah, we can see how well Microsoft's anti-piracy measures work.
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WinXP was hacked before it it store shelves. Apple is probably upset that soooo many copies of Jag are out there right now. They can place some anti-piracy if they want to but I dought they will.
 
Originally posted by Rower_CPU




At least you've given up defending software piracy and are starting to show your true motivations for joining this discussion.
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I never "defended" software piracy, i just dont think it is that big of a deal in the long run.
 
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