PowerMac G5 Updates - March 23rd?

[MacRAND]

Design over Speed

well i hear you but market is being lossed (sic) every qtr. when you drop to 1.7% of new sales you got (sic) problems.
I dont care about philosophy or anything else.
If I a long time user like me am thinking of jumping ship then there are plenty more who have allready (sic) done this or have never seen a Apple product in the first place...
... they are getting less and less and less of the market every qtr. why do you think they had to open their own stores?

competition is good for the market but Apple is in their own little monopoly. look at the products for mac vs PC no comparison,look at those video cards again no comparison. sooner or later this market is going to hit these guys very hard if they dont start making machines for the consumer.

please explain to me how 1.7% of new sales is good for Apple?
please explain to me how making machines not to fit the consumer is good for apple?
please explain how having piss pot poor game options and no Tv capabilities is good for Apple.
Apple does what Apple wants not what the Market is willing to buy and hence have lost the market.
They need to get back to basics and that is selling to the consumer not just making the machine for the pro users and hope a few consumers come along for the ride. Its not working.

True, it is NOT working for you because you are a PLAYER, not a worker. Most of the rest of us in this MacRumors MacForum work with our computers. You PLAY games.
Apple does not design or make computers for you, Dont Hurt Me, and it is good when "Gamers" and "TV watchers" figure that out and abandon their Macs in favor of speedy little game boxes. You should move to the PC world where computers and games ARE CHEAPER, because that is your world. A world where you will obviously find comfort in massive numbers of other gamers and TV watchers. Weren't you one of the guys sitting in the audience in the 1984 Mac Ad, you were one of the gamers watching the big TV screen, until it got broken.

Think what you will, both chips are 64bit and have a bright future. If you care about usability and sleekness, you will go mac. If you care about gaming go alienware.

The vast majority of the millions of Mac users could care less about expensive video cards, the availability of cyber games with which to play for hours on end, or whether a Mac can be interfaced with HDTV, nor are we concerned with market share. Those are the things you constantly whine about on threads within this forum. Pitty you need a computer to entertain YOU. The rest of us share our entertainment time by watching TV with our family and friends, or play games with each other...when time for such trivia permits.

"It's not working" for you because you are a PLAYER, not a pro user, not a professional who uses a computer for work, nor are you the kind of consumer for which Apple Computers are superbly designed. Face it, the Macworld is not where you belong. You obviously belong with the MAJORITY of PC owners, with the MASSES, and that TINY but very important MINORITY of elite people in the world who seem to thrive on spending their time playing computer games and watching TV alone.

If you like PC go PC. I wouldnt buy alienware...because you can build your own for a lot less money and get the same calibur of system minus the branding ...
If i was in the market for a gaming system i'd go PC without hesistation. I'm in the market for a professional system though. Yeah, PC's can do it just as well now a days, but that's not all that matters.
Apple has had a foothold in the professional world since its inception, so that weighs into it. You have to cater to the market that you're entering if you want to be successful. The compatability between the two has gotten better over the years, which is more then welcome, but mac still has the professional market covered (ESP creativity related work).
If you're not using it as a professional system. Go PC

Therefore, you are invited to be a SWITCHER to PC & TV & Games.

A CEO is a CHIEF Executive Officer. You know that Chief implies the peak, pinnacle, singular most executive Officer. There aren't multiple CEOs at Apple, because they wouldn't be Chief Exectutive Officers would they? They would simply be EOs. Thanks for your insight into who's getting rich on our Apple purchases though.

There are reasons why Apple doesn't allow you to simply custom build the exact consumer iMac you want and most of them are due to Apple's consumer philosophy.
Apple's over-riding consumer philosophy, right or wrong, is that Consumers just want a tool that does what they want. Furthermore, consumers want a cool tool.. not a biege box, and a tool that is easy to use.

MacAddicts care about design (including the fact that Steve Jobs is the most admired and respected CEO of any computer industry company in America - because of important design awards Apple has been repeatedly given for its products, and for the quality of his leadership.
We care about philosophy, about the fact that Apple Computer is well run and very profitable, and we generally about each other.

Fine computers, like fine cars, high-end audio or video equipment, fine clothing, and other fine things are not for the masses, which is where you describe yourself and wanting to migrate. We want you to feel more socially acceptable, and it is obvious you need the company of others like you, especially fellow gamers. You belong in the PC world, ensnarled in MS Windows XP, and propelled by hot Intel chips of amazing speed.

We understand your fear that it only takes one "Comet or Asteroid to mess up our planet", and the need to awaken the attention of NASA, and address the inadequacies of Politicians. Could you explain to us how your investment of time playing Asteroid and other "space stuff" games is going to help?

Apple Stores are not your style, not when you would feel so much at home at Best Buy, Gateway, or Dell City? Oh, they sell TVs at many of these places too.

Don't you get tired of posting essentially the same rant (multiple times) every single day?

Apple computers are designed for use by professionals who earn a living from the use of their computers, for those with discriminating taste, appreciation for quality and good design, not for mindless consumers and the masses.
Face it, you don't feel comfortable in an Apple Store, you feel uncomfortable amongst MacAddicts like those that populate this forum. You constantly complain and are exceptionally negative.
Go where you belong, where you feel the most comfortable.

 

[mvc]

Happy pill time…

sooner or later this market is going to hit these guys very hard if they dont start making machines for the consumer. please explain to me how 1.7% of new sales is good for Apple? please explain to me how making machines not to fit the consumer is good for apple? please explain how having piss pot poor game options and no Tv capabilities is good for Apple. Apple does what Apple wants not what the Market is willing to buy and hence have lost the market. They need to get back to basics…etc etc

Don't hurt me, your messages are becoming indistinguishable from your sig lately, its all doom, gloom, and FUD, and its all apparently because of some idiots out there in big corporations like Apple and Nasa.

You might try getting some hope and vision to share around. Whinging and moaning is easier, after all, even babies can do it naturally, but it IS tiring to listen to.

Or if hope and vision is too hard, maybe you should get that Alienware box, I'm just not sure it will actually make you happy though.

 

[AppleJustWorks]

Macrand

MacRand: you certainly told him......I serisouly don't think he's coming back!

I fully support and agree with everything you said right there.......


DP 1.8 Soon to come!

 

[Zaty]

No reason to complain

I just like to throw in my 2 cents from the perspective of a long time Windows user who recently switched. I really don't understand those Mac users who keep complaining about how slow Macs are compared to PC and why there are only few games available etc.

First, I agree that certain models need some redesigning because their specs seem a bit outdated for a 2004 model (i.e eMac, 12in iBook). Other than that, there is no reason to complain. What makes a good computer? Good hardware + good software. Good software run on bad hardware won't make up happy neither will bad software run on good hardware. By building both hardware and software, Apple makes sure everything works well together.

You can build a PC using the best hardware components money can buy and you will get a good computer. Yet, it will still run Windows with all its problems and shortcomings. (I guess I don't have to be more specific, most members of the community out there will know what I mean). On the other hand Microsoft, with its almost unlimited resources, could build the best OS ever built. Even if they did, PC user would still be fighting compatibility problems because there are so many hardware components available for the Windows platform that is impossible for MS, even if they tried, to make sure everything works the way it's supposed to.

Using Mac involves doing without the latest and greatest hardware (and games), but in return Apple sells you computers that work and you don't have to spend hours and hours solving all kinds of issues. Macs just work and not only do they work, they work well and that's what's important IMHO.

 

[neonart]

I understand DHM's concerns to a degree, but I also think that whining and complaining is not going to fix the problem. What will help, if you really care about gaming on the Mac, is buying Mac games, avoid pirating, and make the best use possible of the hardware. (BTW, I'm not saying anybody here pirates games- just a general point.)

Keep your Mac (your OS), and help improve Mac gaming with tangible support... it's a heck of a lot better than just complaining.

 

[jsw]

Macs are not going to be gaming machines for a long time, unless you count the pro line, and most pro buyers aren't that into, say, Quake.

So, people wanting a cheap gaming computer need to buy PCs. Period. Apple is not going to make a cheap gaming computer.

However, it would be nice if Apple would make a higher performance, headless line that was not as high-end as the pro line. It might increase market share, and that's good.

I don't want to own the same computer that 95% of the computing world owns. Mainly because it becomes too much of a target for virus writers. But I would like to own a computer with, say, 10% of the market. Why? Because that's a big enough chunk that: (a) more hardware would be available to me as add-ons or peripherals; and (b) [primary for me] corporations might start to look at buying Macs again. There are some of us who are self-employed or who work in the graphics industry or who are just plain lucky, but most of us who work in corporations have no chance whatsoever of getting a Mac at work. I'd like to have one at work, so, for selfish reasons, I want to see the market share go up.

I don't want to see ugly boxes and bad designs. I like the iMac for what it is and understand the thermal trade-offs. But I would like to see Apple pump out something that brings in more PC owners and so increases market share. I don't think that bringing over some of the unwashed masses to our side is going to hurt Apple. We're here because of the OS, primarily. I think it's elitist to think that the Mac will start to suck if "too many" people own one. I'd like to see more Mac owners. I don't want, like I said, a huge market share. But I would like to see some products that are more generally appealing and so therefore convert more people. OS X is, generally, not what's keeping Jane and Joe Public from buying a Mac. It's usually: (a) he's a gamer [and so he'll stay PC]; (b) none of her friends have a Mac, so she's afraid to jump; or (c) Macs seem to cost too much. Making headless boxes won't help case (a), but it might help case (c), which would eventually help case (b).

 

[jsw]

I understand DHM's concerns to a degree, but I also think that whining and complaining is not going to fix the problem. What will help, if you really care about gaming on the Mac, is buying Mac games, avoid pirating, and make the best use possible of the hardware. (BTW, I'm not saying anybody here pirates games- just a general point.)

Hear, hear. Pirating is horrible for Mac game makers - look at Bungie's Halo-piracy comments. Piracy is rampant in the PC world, too, but at least there the greater numbers create profits even if there are some pirates, but, in the Mac world, every dollar counts.

Keep your Mac (your OS), and help improve Mac gaming with tangible support... it's a heck of a lot better than just complaining.

Or, say, write Mac games. But, yes, we need to support those companies whose products we like. I don't buy a lot of games (I own all of three) but I do support shareware and commercial vendors as much as possible.

 

[jsw]

Using Mac involves doing without the latest and greatest hardware (and games), but in return Apple sells you computers that work and you don't have to spend hours and hours solving all kinds of issues. Macs just work and not only do they work, they work well and that's what's important IMHO.

Yeah, I suppose that whole "works well" thing has some value.

I don't think anyone expects Apple to ever be state-of-the-art in terms of speed-based hardware, at least outside the pro line. And I know that counting CPU cycles per second doesn't give you the whole story. But the consumer line is slow compared to comparably priced PCs. Buyers see that. I don't want Apple to get defocused again. I'm just hoping that the next consumer line is a bit more powerful, that's all - so Apple can still stand on it's "our software rules" argument, but at least people will give Macs a chance by buying one based on specs and then being awed by the OS and software once it's home. We know the software's great. But someone who's never owned a Mac, just walking into an Apple store, might not see the value in a five minute visit.

 

[ffakr]

well i hear you but market is being lossed every qtr. when you drop to 1.7% of new sales you got problems. I dont care about philosophy or anything else. If I a long time user like me am thinking of jumping ship then there are plenty more who have allready done this or have never seen a Apple product in the first place. and by the way they have the president of this and the president of that and chief of balony and chief of salomi.

I simply pointed out that YOU claimed that Apple's problems were due to the "other CEOs". A head of a division is not a CEO.
From what I've seen, Apple doesn't have a top heavy management structure. They put smart people in charge of their company.. this isn't Tyco or Enron. Avie knows what he's doing.

spin all you want but the numbers show the truth.

I suppose you are still talking to me, I didn't actually quote any numbers so I guess it would be tough for me to spin them

they are getting less and less and less of the market every qtr. why do you think they had to open their own stores?
competition is good for the market but Apple is in their own little monopoly.

Yes, competition is good for the market. If you haven't noticed, Apple is in competition with the other 98% of the market. If someone doesn't buy a Mac, they tend to buy a Windows PC (or maybe even a Linux PC). This is competition by definition. Different products COMPETEING for the same sale. Apple competes more than any PC maker. There is little to differentiate between one PC vendor and another. It usually comes to Price and name recognition. Apple competes on hardware, OS, Software, Design, TCO (admin/management/quality)...

look at the products for mac vs PC no comparison,look at those video cards again no comparison. sooner or later this market is going to hit these guys very hard if they dont start making machines for the consumer. please explain to me how 1.7% of new sales is good for Apple? please explain to me how making machines not to fit the consumer is good for apple? please explain how having piss pot poor game options and no Tv capabilities is good for Apple.

Maybe I should type s-l-o-w-l-y so you can follow this.
No one said having 2% of the market is good for Apple.
Apple DOES make what the consumer wants.. they do maket research. You can't pick one niche group (like the VERY small Windows Multimedia market) and claim that Apple doesn't do what MOST consumers request. FUD (like yours) has a lot more to do with the average consumer not buying a PC than the inability of the Mac to do what they need.
and finally... Apple Doesn't Make Games.
You know what really chaps my hide? People who blame Apple for the lack of games but they [the consumer] don't do a damn thing to help. Guess what, Apple doesn't make video games. Video game companies make video games. If you want new games to come to the mac, BUY SOME FREAKING MAC VIDEO GAMES! Video game vendors already know that it's cheaper to support Mac video games (less tech support for Mac software), but they can't justify the ports when the sales figures aren't high enough. If some whiny Mac gamers would buy some freaking Mac games, we'd see a heck of a lot more porting going on.
Let me clue you into something else.. the best way to stimulate Mac game development does not include buying a PC and spending money on PC games.

Apple does what Apple wants not what the Market is willing to buy and hence have lost the market. They need to get back to basics and that is selling to the consumer not just making the machine for the pro users and hope a few consumers come along for the ride. Its not working.

That's a remarkably simplistic view of the market forces at work. Your opinion is based on the assumption that Apple doesn't make a machine that suits the needs of the average consumer. This is false. The typical consumer machine (iMac or eMac or iBook) is perfectly capable as a tool to browse the web, send email, write/print documents, import/manage/edit photos, edit home movies, play games... The Pro line is more than powerful enough to do hard core research, Play any game available, run Windows in emulation... Your opinion is, therefore, just that.. an uninformed opinion.

Don't get me wrong Apple ISN'T perfect. However, Apple isn't nor can it be everything to everyone. Apple can't compete as a PVR or a Media Center PC and a general consumer machine, and pro machine, and a 'riced out' neon overclocked Gaming rig.. Apple is one company and they need to pick their fights. They target their consumer machines to the average user who probably makes up 80% of the market.. not the small percentage of people who want their computers to be their VCR (yes, it's a small percentage, MS Media Center Edition doesn't sell that well). [aside.. You can buy TV tuners for the Mac]
You know, the funniest thing about your whole rant is that you have been talking about how Apple sucks for gaming but you compare a similarly priced PC [alienware] to a Pro G5 tower. Even though the G5 tower can play any game available just fine (maybe at 200 instead of 250 fps), Apple is somehow to blame for not being appropriate for Gaming because OTHER companies don't write enough games for the Mac. Maybe when Apple buys Blizzard, EA, Id, and Valve then they can finally make you happy.

 

[Zaty]

Yeah, I suppose that whole "works well" thing has some value.

I don't want Apple to get defocused again. I'm just hoping that the next consumer line is a bit more powerful, that's all - so Apple can still stand on it's "our software rules" argument, but at least people will give Macs a chance by buying one based on specs and then being awed by the OS and software once it's home. We know the software's great. But someone who's never owned a Mac, just walking into an Apple store, might not see the value in a five minute visit.

Good point, when I decided to switch I first ordered a 933Mhz iBook (but ended up buying a 12"PB because I desperately needed a faster computer and could not wait 8 weeks for the iBook). When told a friend about my order, his first reaction was "What? Only 933 MHz? How slow is that" I guess that's a typical reaction from a person who only knows how many GHz PCs have. So a 2 GHz iMac would definitely help to get more people to buy a Mac. Furthermore, with Intel giving up its old marketing strategy, raw cpu speed might not be anymore the key argument for/against buying a particular computer.

 

[rdowns]

They target their consumer machines to the average user who probably makes up 80% of the market..

And that is your opinion. This 80% is not buying Macs. Dwindling market share, lower units sold of iMacs, eMacs and iBooks. Sure, price is a factor but old technolgy is the major reason, in MY opinion. If Apple was as aggressive with their computers as they have been with the iPod, this discussion would be moot.

 

[jsw]

The Pro line is more than powerful enough to do hard core research, Play any game available, run Windows in emulation...

Sadly, we're stuck waiting for MS to release a G5-compatible version of Virtual PC. Frightening. If it comes out, though, it'll be interesting to see what the G5 can do. Not that I need to run Windows on my Mac. Just curious.

 

[jsw]

Furthermore, with Intel giving up its old marketing strategy, raw cpu speed might not be anymore the key argument for/against buying a particular computer.

Definitely. But we just need to be in the same ballpark. Most people don't buy cars based on top speed or purely based on horsepower, but they don't want to see a speedometer topping out at 85 mph and they don't want a 100 hp engine. They also don't need a 200 mph speedometer or a 400 hp engine. Just so that the car feel "fast enough". Same for computers.

 

[rdowns]

Yeah, I suppose that whole "works well" thing has some value.

I don't think anyone expects Apple to ever be state-of-the-art in terms of speed-based hardware, at least outside the pro line. And I know that counting CPU cycles per second doesn't give you the whole story. But the consumer line is slow compared to comparably priced PCs. Buyers see that. I don't want Apple to get defocused again. I'm just hoping that the next consumer line is a bit more powerful, that's all - so Apple can still stand on it's "our software rules" argument, but at least people will give Macs a chance by buying one based on specs and then being awed by the OS and software once it's home. We know the software's great. But someone who's never owned a Mac, just walking into an Apple store, might not see the value in a five minute visit.

The problem is getting them into the store for that five minute visit. In my visits to the Apple stores in and around NYC, it's the faithful who are shopping there. The stores people go to to buy their computers do not sell Macs, so how could they even consider one?

What Apple needs to do is get the word out. A series of TV ads is the only way to do this. How about a spokesperson coming on and saying, "Sure, Macs cost a bit more but here's why." The series could then have ads about OS X, iApps, ease of use, compatability, how to switch. Justify the damn price, meet the objection head on. Show these people what they could be doing with their PCs and how easy it is on a Mac.

People are willing to spend more if given the reasons.

 

[jsw]

If Apple was as aggressive with their computers as they have been with the iPod, this discussion would be moot.

If they were that aggressive, MS would be talking about how virus-proof their OS was (mainly because who would write a virus for a system with only 2% of the market?).

 

[jsw]

The problem is getting them into the store for that five minute visit. In my visits to the Apple stores in and around NYC, it's the faithful who are shopping there. The stores people go to to buy their computers do not sell Macs, so how could they even consider one?

What Apple needs to do is get the word out. A series of TV ads is the only way to do this. How about a spokesperson coming on and saying, "Sure, Macs cost a bit more but here's why." The series could then have ads about OS X, iApps, ease of use, compatability, how to switch. Justify the damn price, meet the objection head on. Show these people what they could be doing with their PCs and how easy it is on a Mac.

People are willing to spend more if given the reasons.

Definitely true about people not going into Apple stores. I'd like to see more Apple retailers. Not everyone lives near an Apple store, but most people live near a Best Buy, Circuit City, etc.

I'm not sure Apple should say "sure, Macs cost more" so much as I think they should be very clear about all the stuff you get on a Mac as opposed to on a PC.

And it would be nice if the hardware were a bit more comparable instead of having to push the software so much. Apple is, after all, primarily a hardware company, and it's too bad that it's the software that's keeping them afloat. The software's great, and the hardware designs are great, but the hardware itself - excluding the pro desktops but not excluding the pro laptops - is lagging.

 

[michaelal]

And that is your opinion. This 80% is not buying Macs. Dwindling market share, lower units sold of iMacs, eMacs and iBooks. Sure, price is a factor but old technolgy is the major reason, in MY opinion. If Apple was as aggressive with their computers as they have been with the iPod, this discussion would be moot.

I think this is the whole problem in a nutshell. Apple is making a lot of money on iPods right now and it is at the expense of their computer business. I've been with Macs since the beginning. I have been ridiculed and laughed at for staying with Macintosh ("You must be one of only two people on the planet who use Macintosh"). In fact, all the rest of my family uses PCs, but I've always recognized the value in Macintosh. Apple, however, must focus on their computer business and try to make the best working computer for "the rest of us" or that part of their business will die and we will be left with nothing but a bunch of toys. I realize that Apple is a business, but those of us of us who are zealots about their computers must get good value or even we will have to switch in the future.

 

[invaLPsion]

After reading all of these posts I have almost forgotten that powermacs could come out on Tuesday. Does anyone have anything on topic anymore?

 

[jsw]

After reading all of these posts I have almost forgotten that powermacs could come out on Tuesday. Does anyone have anything on topic anymore?

No, we're just all so exhausted from wondering that we've been reduced to all this bickering. God help us if the announcement comes on the 30th instead of the 23rd...

 

[numediaman]

I think this is the whole problem in a nutshell. Apple is making a lot of money on iPods right now and it is at the expense of their computer business. I've been with Macs since the beginning. I have been ridiculed and laughed at for staying with Macintosh ("You must be one of only two people on the planet who use Macintosh"). In fact, all the rest of my family uses PCs, but I've always recognized the value in Macintosh. Apple, however, must focus on their computer business and try to make the best working computer for "the rest of us" or that part of their business will die and we will be left with nothing but a bunch of toys. I realize that Apple is a business, but those of us of us who are zealots about their computers must get good value or even we will have to switch in the future.

The percentage of computer users who like to think about their computer choices is very small -- but I would think the percentage is much higher for Mac users.

People who are "really" into PCs don't laugh at Mac users -- they realize that Macs are another choice, just like Linux is a choice to be taken seriously. Anybody who laughs at a Mac user is basically painting a giant sign on their backs: "I love to conform". Strangely, the younger someone is, the more they seem to conform.

I don't get the whole PC vs Mac thing. I have been an Apple customer since before the Mac was introduced. But my household has two PCs in it, as well. If you want to play the latest games you use one of the PCs. If you are into graphics, video or music, you use the Mac.

Last point: Apple has always had a difficult time coming up with a computer that could be used an entry point for their high-end machines. The iMac is supposed to be that entry point. If they can introduce an iMac with a 1.6 G5 chip, a good graphics card, and sleek design, they will be fine. The iPod, GarageBand and the Apple Stores will bring in new users -- but they'll
be luck to ever hit 5 percent.

 

[fordespub]

The percentage of computer users who like to think about their computer choices is very small -- but I would think the percentage is much higher for Mac users.

People who are "really" into PCs don't laugh at Mac users -- they realize that Macs are another choice, just like Linux is a choice to be taken seriously. Anybody who laughs at a Mac user is basically painting a giant sign on their backs: "I love to conform". Strangely, the younger someone is, the more they seem to conform.

I don't get the whole PC vs Mac thing. I have been an Apple customer since before the Mac was introduced. But my household has two PCs in it, as well. If you want to play the latest games you use one of the PCs. If you are into graphics, video or music, you use the Mac.

Last point: Apple has always had a difficult time coming up with a computer that could be used an entry point for their high-end machines. The iMac is supposed to be that entry point. If they can introduce an iMac with a 1.6 G5 chip, a good graphics card, and sleek design, they will be fine. The iPod, GarageBand and the Apple Stores will bring in new users -- but they'll
be luck to ever hit 5 percent.

 

[fordespub]

New Mac User




Ok, I recently bought my first Mac, iBook G4, to test it out before sinking a bundle on the G5 Powermac. I agree with whoever said it in this LONG thread . . . it's really the software that sets the Mac apart functionally. The hardware is great, but it seems to be more a case of psychological euphoria around the "cool factor" of Apple products and being part of a special niche, combined with the awesome software, that makes users love these products. Is the hardware really that much better than a similarly configured PC? I'd like to think so! What I still don't get though is that "they" say a lower GHz (IBM?) chip used in a Mac is as fast as a higher GHz Intel chip in a PC. Is this really true? If so, to what extent (for comparison)? If not, maybe I should wait for the 3GHz G5 to ensure it's as fast as my 3GHz Intel Pentium chip in my Dell. Any thoughts? I'm sure this has been covered before, but give me a break . . . I'm a newbie! - fordespub

 

[JohnnyTwoToes]

Don't you get tired of posting essentially the same rant (multiple times) every single day?

Don't Hurt Me = SQUELCHED

 

[invaLPsion]

No, we're just all so exhausted from wondering that we've been reduced to all this bickering. God help us if the announcement comes on the 30th instead of the 23rd...

lol

And look where it's got us.

 

[neonart]

No, we're just all so exhausted from wondering that we've been reduced to all this bickering. God help us if the announcement comes on the 30th instead of the 23rd...

Yeah, that would be alot of bickering and wining!

Once the G5's are released then all the rumors turn to Powerbook rumors and everybody whines about those. It's really funny...