Do you think Masimo's Mighty Sat for home use is also a gimmick, or is it only a gimmick from Apple?
Almost the exact same wording. Wonder if there is some legal reason for that? :-D
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Pulse Ox Company Masimo Accuses Apple of Delaying Legal Battle to Sell More Apple Watches
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Do you think Masimo's Mighty Sat for home use is also a gimmick, or is it only a gimmick from Apple?
Almost the exact same wording. Wonder if there is some legal reason for that? :-D
Neither of the other two articles provides evidence, just speculation (in both cases base on other people's tech). They might both be correct, but they might both be wrong.
They cannot make claims about the accuracy of Apple's technology in the Apple Watch 6 based on what other people have been able to do in with similar tech, because they have no idea what else Apple has done to improve it.
There is a big difference between the statement that one should not yet rely on a device that has not received medical device certification and the statement that it is "unreliable". We have not seen any evidence on its reliability yet and neither of these articles claims they know it in specific. When the Apple Watch 4 came out we could many articles that were almost the same about the EKG, including how it would not matter and it would not affect people's lives. After two years in the market people are saying the opposite.
However, no where have I made any claims that one should rely on it for anything. I just dispute the claim that we know it is unreliable.
Don't bet on it. Apples know in NYC and D.C to have law firms on speed dial 24 hrs a day.
Good God, leave him alone. What makes you so special to demand that? You are abusive.
I don't recall a time when Apple has said the watch is medical grade, ANYONE ?
You can't see how it could save someone or fail to see for arguments sake?
The difference isn't that big. Either way, you shouldn't rely on it.
If you want to limit it to those two articles this statement is border-line supportable. However, if you look at the Washington Post article that literally has "Apple Watch 6s blood oxygen sensor is unreliable and...mostly useless" and is based on the writer's own experience...that's evidence, my friend. You may not agree on the reliability of that evidence but it's still evidence. I know that you (conveniently) cannot read that article for some reason but there are others like it.
I mean, the evidence is there if you look for it. I literally found it with one Google search. There are a lot of actual users saying it's sporadic and unreliable. What better evidence can you have than that from actual users of the product? If you want to ignore that evidence go ahead, but if you're saying it's not even there then you must not have looked. Evidence is not proof by the way. Maybe you mean proof.
I'm no medical student, but here's what can cause oxygen level to be low.
- COPD, including chronic bronchitis and emphysema
- acute respiratory distress syndrome
- asthma
- collapsed lung
- anemia
- congenital heart defects
- heart disease
- pulmonary embolism
Source: normal-blood-oxygen-level
Yet Apple’s website says: Blood Oxygen app measurements are not intended for medical use, including self-diagnosis or consultation with a doctor. 🤔
They had to add that. Otherwise, some yahoo would sue them.
I’m a medical student as well. I’m an M1, at ETSU Quillen College of Medicine, and I have completed no rotations. I still don’t know much lol. But is amazing how much info we are thrown in such a short time, but so far most clinical stuff has been zebras (disease wise) when most patients will be horses. I don’t pretend to know a lot but I think the actual benefit to pulse ox sensor is less than the ECG. What I think is significant about the Apple Watch and the continued inclusion of health monitoring is what the future holds. Patients will be eventually able to wear a device that reports fluctuations in physiological functions that will be reporting real time to their provider, and may alert them if something is potentially pathologic. That’s super cool and that’s exactly where the Apple Watch is going.
yep... that's perfectly legal but very immoral. poaching is cheaper than acquisition.
As someone who completed their MB in 92, and specialist training in Anaesthetics in 2001, I can tell you two things about what you've said. 1. Your understanding of sleep apnea (and it's what I'd expect of someone whose nappies are wet) needs much more work, whilst the technology of wrist based oximetry isn't there with medically approved devices, it will get better, and fast. 2. As someone else alluded to, your commentary only further highlights the perception the general public has of doctors. Entitlement, arrogance, self-opioniated and failing to grasp empathy. You will never know everything, nor will your professors, and never forget, the title doctor is honorary, it's hard to keep it than to attain it.
What intrigues me is; they haven't gone after Garmin or other players?
I generally find that appeals to authority work best when the authority actually has authority. I suggest you graduate and get a few years under your belt in the real world first before trying that on, youngster.
Not to appeal to my authority, but as a Boarded Doctor of Internal Medicine that spent half of his time in the ICU during residency:
1. I would say that I have seen Masimo products used extensively there.
2. Medical-grade means (hopefully) independently verified reliability with clinical studies to back that assertion. Usually when devices are medical grade in the US, they have to be prescribed by a physician. (They do this so they can charge higher prices because your insurance company will pay the brunt of the cost). The ideal test would be correlating the oxygenation level on the pulse oximeter with more invasive monitoring (arterial line, etc). This type of testing is not insignificant and would significantly increase the cost of going to market.
3. Just because Apple Watch is not medical grade does not necessarily mean that it is unreliable. (triple negative ahh!) Additionally as stated before Masimo's commercial MightyStat line also has similar language to the Apple Watch legalese.
4. Masimo's complaint of their employees being poached has no merit. Employees are free to go to a competitor. If trade secrets, etc were passed then the courts will take care of that process. Pretty sure SCOTUS ruled against the tech companies (and all other companies from placing in anti-poaching clauses).
5. On the topic of reverse engineering, IANAL obviously so I will defer to the experts.
peillaw.com
6. There is no hard rule that SpO2 for a normal person is > 98%. I normally run around 96-97% on a pulse ox and I have no lung problems and I am not a smoker. People can exist on various O2 levels depending on altitude, genetics, etc.
7. Finally ANY product that encourages patients to be more mindful of their health and encourages them to speak with their doctor if it is detecting problems is a plus in my book. (I would say that not all products are equal, e.g. my mom bought a wrist blood pressure detector that said her BP was super high. I told her to make an appointment to see her GP--even though I knew that this type of monitor have been historically very inaccurate--and as expected it turned out that her BP was fine and she returned that product back to the store).
1. I would say that I have seen Masimo products used extensively there.
2. Medical-grade means (hopefully) independently verified reliability with clinical studies to back that assertion. Usually when devices are medical grade in the US, they have to be prescribed by a physician. (They do this so they can charge higher prices because your insurance company will pay the brunt of the cost). The ideal test would be correlating the oxygenation level on the pulse oximeter with more invasive monitoring (arterial line, etc). This type of testing is not insignificant and would significantly increase the cost of going to market.
3. Just because Apple Watch is not medical grade does not necessarily mean that it is unreliable. (triple negative ahh!) Additionally as stated before Masimo's commercial MightyStat line also has similar language to the Apple Watch legalese.
4. Masimo's complaint of their employees being poached has no merit. Employees are free to go to a competitor. If trade secrets, etc were passed then the courts will take care of that process. Pretty sure SCOTUS ruled against the tech companies (and all other companies from placing in anti-poaching clauses).
5. On the topic of reverse engineering, IANAL obviously so I will defer to the experts.
The Legalities of Reverse Engineering - Law Office of Christopher Peil
Technological innovation doesn’t take place in a vacuum. Innovators routinely draw upon the insights of others as they develop new ideas. Studying an existing technology to figure out how it
6. There is no hard rule that SpO2 for a normal person is > 98%. I normally run around 96-97% on a pulse ox and I have no lung problems and I am not a smoker. People can exist on various O2 levels depending on altitude, genetics, etc.
7. Finally ANY product that encourages patients to be more mindful of their health and encourages them to speak with their doctor if it is detecting problems is a plus in my book. (I would say that not all products are equal, e.g. my mom bought a wrist blood pressure detector that said her BP was super high. I told her to make an appointment to see her GP--even though I knew that this type of monitor have been historically very inaccurate--and as expected it turned out that her BP was fine and she returned that product back to the store).
It’s the most valuable company on the planet. Of course they have a bunch of lawsuits. Apple is by no means an angel but this comes with the territory.
Yes. Apple should be allowed to **** anyone and everyone's livelyhood they like in their quest to bring consumers technology that is consumer-grade tech.
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I never said that the AW6 is unreliable just because it's not medical grade. I didn't even mention the disclaimer nor do I know whether it's exactly the same as Apple's - I don't really care.
The guy (Alan Wynn) asked for evidence that it is unreliable. I pointed him to articles written by people who have tested the effectiveness of the oximeter themselves who say that it's unreliable. In other words, I gave him evidence that it is unreliable.
Honestly, I don't even know what this Mighty Sat or MightyStat is and, surprise, I don't really care. Obviously if they need a legal disclaimer, then they think you shouldn't bet your life on it so I personally wouldn't bet my life on it. If other people think the MightyStat is reliable to bet their lives on it they can have at it with as many MightyStats as they can carry.
And even though I don't know what it is, if it's not better than a recurring reminder to visit your doctor, and it costs more than $300, then yes, I'd say it's a BS gimmick.
I guess for the layman there could be some issues with how to interpret any values, however, I would attribute that more to the lack of scientific literacy/statistics than a feature being considered "BS."
If Apple really was making life saving devices then it would make the watch available on all platforms, that is, save the lives of the 80% who use Android also.
I guess some doctors think that being a doctor makes them scientifically literate and immune to issues with interpreting any values.