Pulse Ox Company Masimo Accuses Apple of Delaying Legal Battle to Sell More Apple Watches

[Canezmd]

I've seen this company "Masimo" randomly come up in advertisements with their crappy tech positioned as something futuristic out of nowhere lately. You can definitely tell they are afraid of being squished.

Speaking of squished, WTF happened to their logo? They intentionally used the horizontal resize tool to "squish" it.

You quite literally have no idea what you're talking about.

As a doctor, I us Masimo products in the hospital everyday. They sell the most advanced pulse oximetry products on the market; including sensors that measure carboxyhemoglobin, methemoglobin and total hemoglobin. They are cutting edge in their field.

This is the same issue Apple, google, amazon etc all are in trouble for... theft of IP. They take whatever cool tech they can find at other companies and instead of licensing it, they either reverse engineer the tech or they hire away people that can build the same devices at Apple. Then they lawyer up and make those smaller companies fight it out in court to defend their patents. It's a really evil way to operate and Apple claims to be better than that; but they're clearly not.

 

[Alan Wynn]

Honestly, I don't care about the Trade Secrets up for debate here.

It is pretty important if you want to see future health innovations.

From my perspective, Apple brought potentially life saving tech to the masses at an affordable price. Can we please stop worrying about profits with life saving products?

If they did it by stealing other companies tech and not developing it on their own, you are much less likely to see more of it. I have no problem with them hiring people from some other company. If they took more than people, it is a real problem.

If the apple watch saves someone life because of this, its well worth it IMO.

No. Because if they stole the tech and that makes the next life saving innovation less likely, we all lose. I love my Apple Watch. I know at least two people who are alive today because of their watches. However, I never condone stealing intellectual property.

To be clear, I am not arguing they did anything wrong, we will have to wait until there is a court case on this, but I am saying that your argument that it is OK to steal the IP since it might save some lives is wrong and short sighted.

 

[bousozoku]

This makes me think of all the Xerox PARC inventors who, dissatisfied with the company's ignoring their work, started 3Com, Adobe, etc. to actually see their work be used in real life.

Has Apple directly or indirectly sunk other companies? Of course, they have. They don't seem to have much use for patents unless the patents belong to Apple.

 

[Alan Wynn]

A lot of companies suing Apple.

Yup. They are a big company with deep pockets, making them an easy target.

They can't all be wrong.

Actually, they can all be wrong. Quite a few of them are suing for the same issue, others are arguing theft of IP. They may all be wrong. No relation between the number of the lawsuits and their merit.

Most of the NPE patent suits are not accusing Apple of finding using the patented information to build their product, but in infringing on the patent with no evidence they knew about it before hand.

Apple greed comes back to hunt them.

What greed? They want to make great products. They talk to lots of companies. They try to hire the best people in the industry then can find. some of those people will work for other companies. They lost a lawsuit over their non-compete practices, so it is hard to prevent hiring based on where people worked before.

 

[Alan Wynn]

This is the kind of BS they want you to buy. Can't see how it could save anyone, even more given it's not a reliable medical-grade device

Are you arguing that their Pulse Oxygen sensor is not reliable, that it has not yet been certified and so cannot be marketed as a medical device, or no health function is reliable and medical grade? If you are claiming their Pulse Ox is not reliable, on what are you basing that?

 

[gnasher729]

Well.. normally I hate frivolous suits against Apple but it definitely feels like thats pretty fishy. I'd be pissed if someone reached out to my company to collaborate, hired my best people, and then used their money to keep me from recourse.

But consider that Apple, Facebook, Google and Amazon paid 9 digit fines in the past because they had agreements not to poach employees from each other. So hiring someone else's best people is absolutey fine. Especially if you were one of those "best people", you would be really happy if someone came and offered you a job with more money.

 

[Alan Wynn]

Turns out I'm a medical student so I pretty much know what I am talking about.

A medical student. What year are you? What school are you attending? Given you are claiming to be an authority, I would like some more information.

It would only be usefull for a tiny fraction of users, in cases of poisoning or for helping some realise that they have sleep apnea maybe (for those who will sleep with their watch and monitor themselves). There are little cases that I can think of where one life would be saved because of a SILENT low oxygen sat. Covid maybe?

I do hope none of the small number of cases would have been people you convince not to purchase a watch. Apple and several universities are already researching using the watch to provide early detection for COVID-19. However, unless you can prove harm (vs. absence of benefit), your point is not very strong.

 

[SevenSeas]

Patent infringement is patent infringement. If Apple is guilty then they will pay the price.

 

[gnasher729]

Don't you understand what the article says? Apple reportedly stole their intellectual property and key employees so they could make their own solution without having to share the revenues

"Stealing" key employees is actually expected behaviour. Apple and other companies paid huge fines for having anti-poaching agreements. If trade secrets were stolen, there should be evidence for that.

 

[gnasher729]

They have to say that for legal reasons since the sensor does not meet medical standards. But they let people think it's a medical device (or do they openly say it when purchasing, apart from the fine prints)

It's in their adverts in quite large letters.

 

[Alan Wynn]

Don't you understand what the article says?

Do you understand what the article says?

Apple reportedly stole their intellectual property and key employees so they could make their own solution without having to share the revenues

Actually, the article says that Masimo claims that Apple stole their IP. It also states that several of their key employees went to work for Apple. The rest is pure speculation.

It is very possible that the Masimo employees approached Apple because they were more interested in working on a product that would see mass adoption vs. a niche product (even if it is a well respected one). As for the rest of their claims, until we have a lot more information, I am not sure how you think you can take sides in this case.

 

[Hammerd]

Do you understand what the article says?



Actually, the article says that Masimo claims that Apple stole their IP. It also states that several of their key employees went to work for Apple. The rest is pure speculation.

It is very possible that the Masimo employees approached Apple because they were more interested in working on a product that would see mass adoption vs. a niche product (even if it is a well respected one). As for the rest of their claims, until we have a lot more information, I am not sure how you think you can take sides in this case.

Oh yes they probably did that on their own, yes. They would rather conceive a medical device knockoff because it would be massively adopted, rather than the top of the line products they were making.
But you're right, we don't know. But this site is about rumors and speculations right?

 

[MauiPa]

A lot of companies suing Apple.
They can't all be wrong.
Apple greed comes back to hunt them.

Lawyers sue the people with the deepest pockets, period - Just nothing more than Ambulance chasers. The fact is the IP arena is messed up, it was before the Bush administration got a "fix" to prevent China from stealing IP, but.....it seems to be worse now.

 

[Hammerd]

Lawyers sue the people with the deepest pockets, period - Just nothing more than Ambulance chasers. The fact is the IP arena is messed up, it was before the Bush administration got a "fix" to prevent China from stealing IP, but.....it seems to be worse now.

So according to you they sue the people that can afford the best lawyers in the world?

 

[coolfactor]

I see it like this — why would these employees, which likely have NDA's and non-compete clauses attached to them, willing go work for Apple? If those workers did not violate any laws or contracts, then I fail to see the problem. If, however, those workers did violate some contractual agreement, then those workers should be held accountable, not Apple.

Masimo likely did not "invent" the technology. If I'm wrong about that, let's see the proof. Apple has not claimed to invent the technology. It's pre-existing technology that Apple likely improved upon in their implementation. Were they required to have a licensing agreements in place beforehand? Is that the issue? Does Masimo own the technology used in the Apple Watch, or it just similar?

These companies remind me of the RIM's of the world... leading edge tech that gets leapfrogged and eclipsed by other companies that want to take it to new heights.

 

[szw-mapple fan]

Well.. normally I hate frivolous suits against Apple but it definitely feels like thats pretty fishy. I'd be pissed if someone reached out to my company to collaborate, hired my best people, and then used their money to keep me from recourse.

Poaching employees is perfectly legal and usually great for the employees since they get better pay and probably a sign on bonus. It's up to you to make sure you keep your employees and protect your IP/trade secrets. It's up to the courts to decide whether Apple infringed on any patents or stole any IP, but Apple did nothing wrong in hiring away their people.

 

[Vege-Taco]

Turns out I'm a medical student so I pretty much know what I am talking about. It would only be usefull for a tiny fraction of users, in cases of poisoning or for helping some realise that they have sleep apnea maybe (for those who will sleep with their watch and monitor themselves). There are little cases that I can think of where one life would be saved because of a SILENT low oxygen sat. Covid maybe?

It could aid families with elderly members they'd like to be able to routinely monitor as well. There's no valid reason to attempt to limit health information to healthcare professionals. Knowledge is empowering. With the current push to control healthcare costs, the more self-monitoring devices around the better. Healthcare personnel just can't afford to take the time to thoroughly investigate every case that comes through their offices.

 

[MauiPa]

Doesn't Fitbit or one of the other watch makers also do this? Are they included in the suit? If not, doesn't seem like its very legitimate. The fact is that many smart people can arrive at very similar solutions to problems given the same level of technology. so the only question is whether the Masimo patents are specific enough to cover all other applications of a similar use that anyone else even thinking about doing this needs to use their patents. The fact is that there are patents in the system that also cover what many patents also cover. They system is a mess.

 

[szw-mapple fan]

Don't you understand what the article says? Apple reportedly stole their intellectual property and key employees so they could make their own solution without having to share the revenues

Allegedly stole IP. Nothing has been proven yet.

As for employees, they can't be stolen as they are not property owned by a corporation. Non-compete clauses are also illegal.

 

[Alan Wynn]

You must be an employee to talk like that.

You are saying he must be an Apple employee because he does not accept a litigant's claims? Some of their claims are clearly problematic (Apple was among a large group of tech companies that were sued and settled over non-poaching agreements, they cannot prevent an employee from interviewing with them based on where they work - it was part of their settlement) and the rest have to be proven.

But yes let's goliath kill everyone. We're only years ahead from Apple selling iFood after suffocating vegetables producers.

Sorry, they have to prove their case first. If they do, Apple will be sanctioned. However, it is just as likely that Apple talked to them, determined they did not have the tech they needed and hired experts in the space to create it for them. I will note that Masimo does not have a wrist-based SPO2 sensor (and I was told by their CTO at CES a year ago January that they did not think it was possible). Just as Apple developed their single lead EKG, got it certified by the FDA and into the hands of millions, it might just be that Apple went a different direction for which we will see medical benefits moving forward.

 

[FloatingBones]

Article headline should have been:
"Masimo Accuses Apple of Delaying Legal Battle to Suck All the Oxygen Out of the Room"

 

[Alan Wynn]

Apple Takes Legal Action Against Small Company With Pear Logo

Apple is taking legal action against the developers of the app "Prepear" due to its logo, according to iPhone in Canada. Prepear is an app...

www.macrumors.com

Just to make sure I understand your view point, it is OK when Masimo sues to protect their IP, even though in patent cases one need to try to enforce the patent for it to remain in force, but it is a problem for Apple to do it, even though in trademark cases not enforcing it could cause them to lose it? No bias there.

 

[Alan Wynn]

I see no issue with Apple's arguments regarding that case.

Given the subjective nature of "artwork", I'd be ok with whatever the decision the judge takes on that one, whether it be pro or against Apple.

@cmaier can weigh in here, but I think that even losing this case would be OK for them, as it still shows they tried to enforce their trademark.

 

[Hammerd]

Just to make sure I understand your view point, it is OK when Masimo sues to protect their IP, even though in patent cases one need to try to enforce the patent for it to remain in force, but it is a problem for Apple to do it, even though in trademark cases not enforcing it could cause them to lose it? No bias there.

There's a difference between protecting one's patent, and abuse suing

 

[Alan Wynn]

It means they didn’t feel like going through the FDA approvals to to be able to say it’s for medical purposes.

Could be they are running trials of this now, but unlike the EKG, could release it as a product while they were awaiting gathering enough data to make get certification.