Pulse Ox Company Masimo Accuses Apple of Delaying Legal Battle to Sell More Apple Watches

[Alan Wynn]

Oh yes they probably did that on their own, yes.

Apple has a huge health team and has clearly done some cutting edge work. Go read their published papers on their Single Lead EKG as an example.

They would rather conceive a medical device knockoff because it would be massively adopted, rather than the top of the line products they were making.

I think that quite a few people would rather make a product that could affect the lives of tens of millions of people, instead of hundreds of thousands of people. Just as their are car designers who want to work on passenger cars and those who want to work on sports cars. This is especially true if they believe that the direction Apple is heading will produce an even better device with very wide adoption.

But you're right, we don't know. But this site is about rumors and speculations right?

You keep making claims (like the SPO2 is "unreliable") that are either factual or not and can easily be proven. If you have evidence for your claim please present it.

 

[damphoose]

Turns out I'm a medical student so I pretty much know what I am talking about. It would only be usefull for a tiny fraction of users, in cases of poisoning or for helping some realise that they have sleep apnea maybe (for those who will sleep with their watch and monitor themselves). There are little cases that I can think of where one life would be saved because of a SILENT low oxygen sat. Covid maybe?

”Can't see how it could save anyone”

A tiny fraction of users is not zero. No one said this was going to save thousands of lives. Masimo did $937 million In 2019. They sell home oximeters too. Thousands of them. They have deal with NBA. You can get a home device in any drugtore. Probably only saved a tiny fraction of lives of consumers yet there they are, nearly a billion dollar company selling this fractional life saver. Every year thousands people go to the emergency room with hypoxia. Usually from workplaces but sometimes home garages.

While not mutually exclusive, Apple stealing their tech AND Apple device being unreliable is the most unlikely of outcomes. That two prong strategy is not going to work for them imho. They are better off proving how the people Apple hired away used their IP.

 

[ececlv]

You quite literally have no idea what you're talking about.

As a doctor, I us Masimo products in the hospital everyday. They sell the most advanced pulse oximetry products on the market; including sensors that measure carboxyhemoglobin, methemoglobin and total hemoglobin. They are cutting edge in their field.

This is the same issue Apple, google, amazon etc all are in trouble for... theft of IP. They take whatever cool tech they can find at other companies and instead of licensing it, they either reverse engineer the tech or they hire away people that can build the same devices at Apple. Then they lawyer up and make those smaller companies fight it out in court to defend their patents. It's a really evil way to operate and Apple claims to be better than that; but they're clearly not.

hiring people: not generally considered evil

reverse engineering perfectly legal if done properly and definitely in no way evil

there is plenty of evil in the world. We dont have to invent more

 

[Hammerd]

Apple has a huge health team and has clearly done some cutting edge work. Go read their published papers on their Single Lead EKG as an example.



I think that quite a few people would rather make a product that could affect the lives of tens of millions of people, instead of hundreds of thousands of people. Just as their are car designers who want to work on passenger cars and those who want to work on sports cars. This is especially true if they believe that the direction Apple is heading will produce an even better device with very wide adoption.



You keep making claims (like the SPO2 is "unreliable") that are either factual or not and can easily be proven. If you have evidence for your claim please present it.

apple itself says their SPO2 sensor is not a medical device and is just for wellbeing purposed. It’s on their very website

 

[Alan Wynn]

So according to you they sue the people that can afford the best lawyers in the world?

Yes, NPEs are companies of lawyers who make their money suing those with deep pockets. Sometimes they get settlements, sometimes they win, sometimes they lose. It is what they do. They do not have products in the market that they are protecting.

 

[mannyvel]

Turns out I'm a medical student so I pretty much know what I am talking about.

actually as a medical student you only know what they tell you. In real life oxygen levels fluctuate, and there are people who survive with ridiculously low o2 levels. See the debate on supplemental o2/ventilation signals for covid-19.

 

[Hammerd]

actually as a medical student you only know what they tell you. In real life oxygen levels fluctuate, and there are people who survive with ridiculously low o2 levels. See the debate on supplemental o2/ventilation signals for covid-19.

thanks for elevating me and correcting what my lifetime experienced professors forgot to tell us

 

[Alan Wynn]

There's a difference between protecting one's patent, and abuse suing

Actually, you have it mostly wrong. Many patent cases are just trying to get settlements, as there is no requirement that they be enforced uniformly. Trademarks need to be enforced or they risk being lost.

 

[sideshowuniqueuser]

Usually such behavior would be attributed to a scum bag company.

"Usually". Apple has definitely become a scum bag company. Complete dogs lately.

 

[Alan Wynn]

apple itself says their SPO2 sensor is not a medical device and is just for wellbeing purposed. It’s on their very website

You made two statements and are only defending one. You claimed that it was "unreliable" and that it was not a medical device. Apple is currently saying it is not a medical device. That may or may not change as they are able to gather more data, but is currently true. However, not being a medical device does not mean that it is "unreliable". If you want to continue making that claim, you need to support it.

 

[Alan Wynn]

thanks for elevating me and correcting what my lifetime experienced professors forgot to tell us

Since you keep justifying your position based on your credentials, I would still like answers to my questions:

In what year of med school are you? At which med school are you enrolled? Which rotation have you already completed?

 

[sideshowuniqueuser]

Apple have become dogs.

 

[Hammerd]

You made two statements and are only defending one. You claimed that it was "unreliable" and that it was not a medical device. Apple is currently saying it is not a medical device. That may or may not change as they are able to gather more data, but is currently true. However, not being a medical device does not mean that it is "unreliable". If you want to continue making that claim, you need to support it.

It’s not about the lack of data, it’s about the lack of precision and reproductibility

 

[ConnorMcJeebus]

You made two statements and are only defending one. You claimed that it was "unreliable" and that it was not a medical device. Apple is currently saying it is not a medical device. That may or may not change as they are able to gather more data, but is currently true. However, not being a medical device does not mean that it is "unreliable". If you want to continue making that claim, you need to support it.

I know you weren't talking to me but I just want you to stop spamming.

Google searched "unreliable oxygen Apple Watch."

Bam: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/09/23/apple-watch-oximeter/

The next two results were from The Verge and a site called medpagetoday.com. Both had similar things to say as the Washington Post.

Now please stop spamming.

 

[Alan Wynn]

Apple have become dogs.

You mean loyal and great for security? Cool. Glad you think they are such a great company.

 

[groundedUX]

Anyone going against apple is toast. The move should just be: "Ok, you win. Just buy us out"

... and the culture of giving up without a fight because something is tough to do increases by another member.

 

[gnasher729]

apple itself says their SPO2 sensor is not a medical device and is just for wellbeing purposed. It’s on their very website

It _might_ be a medical device that isn't approved (yet), so Apple wouldn't be legally allowed to say it's a medical advice and sell it.

 

[Alan Wynn]

Bam: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/09/23/apple-watch-oximeter/

The next two results were from The Verge and a site called medpagetoday.com. Both had similar things to say as the Washington Post.

Can not read The Washington Post, but here is a quote from the MedPageToday article:

Apple does not provide references to any studies or data that would support the accuracy of their new approach but does mention three health studies they are partnering in that will look at the AW6's utility in asthma, heart failure, and COVID-19.

Although we don't know anything about AW6's accuracy, we do have studies showing us that reflectance oximetry (used in AW6) is not as accurate or stable as transmittance oximetry (used in fingertip pulse oximeters.) It's important to understand this significant technological difference, so please indulge me for two paragraphs.

From The Verge:

The Apple Watch Series 6 also has red and infrared lights, but instead of sending that light through a body part, it measures the lights’ reflection. It’s the same strategy used by Garmin and Fitbit, which already have similar blood oxygen features. But the reflective method at the wrist may be less accurate, especially when oxygen levels start to drop, according to some research.

There is a big leap from the statement that reflective oximetry has in the past been less accurate and stable and the statement that the watch is unreliable. One of the big factors is machine learning. That was a big part of how Apple get their EKG certified by the FDA.

Both articles just say that in the past these kind of sensors were less accurate, but neither has tested Apple's product and so neither is able to make any specific claims.

We know that with the heart rate sensor, one needs to have the watch tight enough to get a solid read. What we also know is that with this watch, one has to have it stable and level to get a solid read. Until we see studies that measure its stats, I will reserve judgement.

 

[EarthKidk]

a lotttt of companies like to sue apple. I think is fashion for them to do so, it doesn't matter if apple right or wrong they still sue apple anyway just because they see a way to get apple. I don't really believe in everything these companies say because they just say anything to make apple looks bad.

 

[farewelwilliams]

So this is what Apple is nowadays: a company that dries up smaller promising companies and that steal their IP, while wanting to be seen as a distuptive pro-environment pro-lgbt company that want to make the world a better place. This is just clowning of course, they just want everyone's money. They are even ready to kill companies that work with their platform (Tiles, fitness apps, music and movies/series streaming apps, banks... next what). That's pathetic that they act so agressively, they even sue companies that have a fruit shaped logo... and want to look like the good guys

we get it, you hate big companies. time to move on.

 

[Kabeyun]

Turns out I'm a medical student so I pretty much know what I am talking about. It would only be usefull for a tiny fraction of users, in cases of poisoning or for helping some realise that they have sleep apnea maybe (for those who will sleep with their watch and monitor themselves). There are little cases that I can think of where one life would be saved because of a SILENT low oxygen sat. Covid maybe?

At least your third post features less of the moralizing and absolutism for which your professors would downgrade you. As a medical student, you’re on your way to knowing what you were talking about, but you’re not there yet. Fortunately you still have your residency.

 

[Hammerd]

It _might_ be a medical device that isn't approved (yet), so Apple wouldn't be legally allowed to say it's a medical advice and sell it.

Sure, could be.

 

[Hammerd]

At least your third post features less of the moralizing and absolutism for which your professors would downgrade you. As a medical student, you’re on your way to knowing what you were talking about, but you’re not there yet. Fortunately you still have your residency.

2 yr to go. I’m not a freshman

 

[Hammerd]

In what world does this make sense? 😂

It does make perfect sense actually

 

[ConnorMcJeebus]

Can not read The Washington Post, but here is a quote from the MedPageToday article:



From The Verge:



There is a big leap from the statement that reflective oximetry has in the past been less accurate and stable and the statement that the watch is unreliable. One of the big factors is machine learning. That was a big part of how Apple get their EKG certified by the FDA.

Both articles just say that in the past these kind of sensors were less accurate, but neither has tested Apple's product and so neither is able to make any specific claims.

We know that with the heart rate sensor, one needs to have the watch tight enough to get a solid read. What we also know is that with this watch, one has to have it stable and level to get a solid read. Until we see studies that measure its stats, I will reserve judgement.

I mean...I can cherry pick quotes too. You asked for evidence, so I gave you some. You made it seem there was no evidence to say it's unreliable for the oximeter. That's not the case.



Oh, but this "Both articles just say that in the past these kind of sensors were less accurate, but neither has tested Apple's product and so neither is able to make any specific claims." That statements not right.

Both articles conclude that you shouldn't rely on this kind of tech in a watch yet. Hell, what do I care though...if you want to rely on it, go ahead.