Safari 1.2 Released

[ipoddin]

Re: For you ESL students

Originally posted by splashman
Do you even understand the words you're typing? Here's a translation: "I am whining because I have to pay for what I get."

Yes I understand.

I now have to PAY $129 in order to get support and upgrades for a free application. Any future enhancements will also never be available to me, even though it's still free to those who upgrade their OS. If you had to pay to upgrade Safari then you'd have a valid point.

 

[marano]

Anyone know if these updates allow Lotus iNotes access?

 

[frankly]

Re: tabs

Originally posted by TorbX
I dont like that I have to right-click to get the "open in new tab"-option. I want this to be an one-click operation.

That makes no sense. I use tabs all the time but if I am finished with the page I am currently on I DO NOT want a link to leave that page open and open a new tab.

Can you say that EVERY TIME you click on a link you want it in a new tab??? Every time??? I would find that hard to believe. Unless that is the case it would be a major UI no-no to force customers to use a contextual menu to negate a feature as opposed to adding a feature the way it is done now.

Later, Frank

 

[frankly]

Originally posted by wwworry
still no contextual menu "back" item
so firebird it remains

Wouldn't it be easier to just use the DELETE key?

Frank

 

[frankly]

Originally posted by fjleon
Win98 is gonna be supported at least until 2006 now. That's a lot!

NOT FOR FREE!!!!!!

And I'm sure the prices are high enough that you would think twice about upgrading to XP instead.

Later, Frank

 

[Telomar]

Originally posted by kenohki
The features of Panther that I might use don't justify the price. I'll wait till there is some new feature that I need before upgrading thank you very much.

One of the features of Panther is support for later versions of Safari. You don't seem to understand from Safari 1.1 onwards Safari is quite a substantially different package to what it was in the 1.0 days, when it was a self-contained app. There is a lot more integration of the web browser into the system and then the app just calls on that. If you own Jaguar you don't have the required facilities to call and therefore 1.2 is not a viable option for you, consider it a feature of 10.3. If you still don't believe it's worth the cost of an upgrade then that is your choice, don't blame Apple for it.

Originally posted by kenohki
Are you out of your mind. Where I come from, this is called poor software engineering.

Some of us who work in both worlds have heard of backward compatibility and that you CAN update components in an OS that an application relies on without upgrading the OS.

Microsoft had their browser integrated into the system in Windows 98 and therefore could carry on backwards compatibility, OS X only added that with 10.3 and therefore had to break it. They aren't going to overhaul your Jaguar operating system so you can upgrade Safari, be realistic. Safari was never sold as a feature of Jaguar and as such you really have no reason to expect it. You could complain if you owned a G5 since Safari was advertised as the default browser but then the upgrade to 10.3 is easy.

In the end if you want Safari upgrade to 10.3 otherwise just use another browser. I believe IE is still the default for Jaguar.

 

[frankly]

Re: Wait a minute...

Originally posted by Krizoitz
Apple doesn't have to make a web browser at all. Its not like there is some law that says THOU SHALT MAKE A WEB BROWSER. Why do people assume that they have the right to something (which is free anyway) when its just an added bonus?

Exactly, and that is the bottom line.

It isn't as if Safari is the ONLY web browser that works in 10.2, let's see:

1) IE still works (even thought no new versions are forthcoming)
2) OmniWeb has a great new version coming out
3) Camino
4) Mozilla
5) Firebird
6) iCab
7) Opera
8) Netscape
9) Safari 1.0

Nine web browsers!!! Those people should quit complaining.

Later, Frank

 

[Poff]

Frank, leave IE out of your list. It´s out-dated, really.

The problem is that Apple took away IE from us, and then says: you have to upgrade for us to help you.

It´s like this poor man, who suddenly one morning wakes up to find a $50 bill on his door from Mr. Jobs, in addition to the $30 dollars he gets every day from Mr. Gates. This happens day after day, until Mr. Gates finds out that "this poor man doesn´t need $80. The fifty dollars he gets from Mr. Jobs is enough. So Mr. Gates stops giving the poor man his $30 every day.

Now after a month, the poor man sees Mr. Jobs sticking the fifty dollar bill to his neighbours house, so he shouts to him "What are you doing? You made this other nice gentleman stop giving me money, and now you won´t give me anything either! You took it from me, and now you´ll make me live in even greater poverty than I did before you came!"

 

[frankly]

Originally posted by Poff
Frank, leave IE out of your list. It´s out-dated, really.

No, I put it first on my list on purpose. I use Safari every day. However, there is one site (my banks billpay section) that does not work in Safari. Guess which browser it does work in..........

yep, IE.

So, if IE is still a usable browser and in fact a must have for me on my system why would I take it off of the list??? No, really. Why???

Later, Frank

 

[Poff]

Originally posted by frankly
No, I put it first on my list on purpose. I use Safari every day. However, there is one site (my banks billpay section) that does not work in Safari. Guess which browser it does work in..........

yep, IE.

So, if IE is still a usable browser and in fact a must have for me on my system why would I take it off of the list??? No, really. Why???

Later, Frank

Uh.. because of Camino? 😛

 

[Krizoitz]

Re: A parable for whiners

Originally posted by splashman
Reading all the whining reminds me of a modern-day parable I heard a while back.

A poor man was surprised to find a $50 bill taped to his front door one day. Looking down the street, he saw a man in a bright red coat walking away. He felt very thankful to this mysterious benefactor.

The next day, another $50 bill appeared. And the day after. For a full month this continued.

Then, one day, the man looked out his window to see the man in the red coat, across the street, taping money to the door of his neighbor.

"Hey!" yelled the man out his window, shaking his fist. "Where's my fifty dollars?"

*STANDING OVATION*

 

[Krizoitz]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No Jaguar . . . sucks!!!

Originally posted by flyfish29
Get over the fact that some on this board don't agree with you, stop "slamming" them with a negative tone of voice and enjoy the diversity you read about here.....I do get sick of the wining too and agree that everyone should :"vote": with their dollar, but it is a very positive thing to provide feedback, discussion, etc on products and services through these message boards!

My posts aren't leveled at the people who are using reasonable arguments. My posts are aimed at the people crying bloody murder.

 

[kenohki]

Originally posted by Bluefusion
If by "both worlds" you refer to Windows compatibility, I'm surprised you even bothered to mention it. Does "DLL Hell" ring any sort of bells here?

Give me a break. DLL Hell is a non-issue as of Windows XP (system restore points). And the NT based Windows versions were always MUCH better about this.

Complaining that a free app, which promises Apple absolutely ZERO revenue is not up to your "serious standards" is just ridiculous.

Well now that they're forcing you to upgrade for fixes for Safari I guess it IS making them some revenue. I think that's the issue here. When they did bait and switch with things like iTools/.Mac and iLife, I didn't mind. Those provided useful new features. With this Safari business, all they're doing is making sure it works like it should have in the first place.

If the old version wasn't good enough, why are you complaining about the new one at all?

I'm complaining because I'm being charged $129 for bug fixes.

 

[Poff]

Originally posted by kenohki


I'm complaining because I'm being charged $129 for bug fixes.

BRAVO ! ! ! 😀

 

[Lancetx]

Really, this is all very silly. Safari 1.0 was distributed freely by Apple as a download for use on Jaguar and Safari 1.1 was included with Panther as the default browser. Apple never stated that Safari 1.1 or later would ever be available for Jaguar and anyone that assumed it would be was obviously incorrect.

If you choose (and the choice is indeed yours) not to upgrade to Panther, you still have plenty of free alternatives available to you (Mozilla, etc), so you're not being left in the dark. Whether anyone likes it or not, this is how it's going to be, so if you choose to stay with 10.2, you simply won't be able to upgrade to the latest version of Safari (among other apps). If you want to have the latest and greatest from Apple you have to pay for it, I don't see why that is so difficult to understand.

Apple isn't the only software company out there that does this either and it's silly to complain about an OS that gets upgraded so frequently. I'd sure rather have that than the alternative.

 

[tileeater]

safari is pretty dumb at visited links

it's amazing that safari still can't update the color / style of links on the fly as a page is loaded into say, another tab...

this would be very useful for google searches. having the results in tab and loading links into another. but how do you tell where you've already been? you have to freaking reload the page! pathetic!

 

[ZildjianKX]

Man, a lot of mac zealots are comlaining that its not Apple's fault for not making it backwards compatible with 10.2...

As a recent switcher, I have to tell you how surprised I am about how if you don't keep up with the latest mac OS upgrades, you can't run a lot of software... such a thing barely exists in the PC world from Windows 98 onwards. Apple has done a lot of things that are pretty shady, from crippling non-firewire webcams in iChat, to crippling iPod USB support on macs, to requiring a 3 month old $129 OS upgrade to run a critical OS X appliation... I love macs... but some things bother me... that's just my $0.02

 

[janey]

REALLY THIS IS ALL INSANE I CANT BELIEVE HALF OF YOU n00bs INSIST YOU MUST GET A JAGUAR COMPATIBLE COPY OF SAFARI 1.2 BECAUSE YOU PAID FOR JAGUAR.

Ookay does anyone *actually* understand why it is TECHNOLOGICALLY difficult for Apple to release a Jag compatible Safari? Any Mac developer with any common sense who spent a minute developing with both versions of OS X will understand that they're in no way similar to each other.
LOOK I'm sorry, but Windows 98 and ME are practically the same except ME is ****tier. NT/2k/XP are similar too. Microsoft only has to make 2 versions of their software. On the other hand, with every OS update Apple has to work on a new one because OS X v. 10 is not the same as 10.1 or 10.2 or 10.3. You cant just get the same damned code and compile it for another OS. It practically needs a rewrite, and that takes excessive amounts of time and money. Besides, half the stuff they probably use in safari are unavailable on the older versions of the OS - same reason why you cant get an Objective-C/Cocoa/Project Builder/Xcode tutorial based on 10.1 and expect the code and the apps to work the same way in 10.3. If you want a half-baked Safari 1.2 for Jaguar...whatever man *shrug*

Half of you n00bs are complaining about stuff that Apple can't really do anything about. What would you rather have backwards compatibility or R&D? Because if you said backwards compatibility, Apple's gonna be in deep **** because they wont be able to compete with anyone else. One of the reasons why people get Macs is because Apple actually spends a good deal of time and money making their apps good. If Apple were to give up all that research and development, I might as well switch to using Linux or Windows again.

ALL YOU PEOPLE WHO SAY YOU'VE INSTALLED SAFARI OVER AND OVER AND IT REFUSES TO WORK: I know at least one person said that they're not a n00b and that they know some stuff about Mac OS X. Please don't say that again, because that just shows that you are sorta...a n00b. All you have to do is to delete the prefs file in /Users/(your user name)/Library/Preferences. It's a file that has "Safari" in it. It's like com.apple.Safari.plist. If that doesnt work try fixing permissions. Yeesh, even that you could have searched on these forums.

 

[Krizoitz]

Originally posted by ZildjianKX
to requiring a 3 month old $129 OS upgrade to run a critical OS X appliation

1) Safari is hardly a critical OS X application, especially given the plethora of alternatives

2) No one is requiring you to purchase Panther to run Safari, Apple has made 1.0 availble to users from the begining.

 

[Krizoitz]

Come to think of it

Safari 1.1.1 wasn't Jaguar compatible either I'm pretty sure, so its not like Apple is suddenly not supporting Jaguar

 

[shadowfax]

Re: Come to think of it

Originally posted by Krizoitz
Safari 1.1.1 wasn't Jaguar compatible either I'm pretty sure, so its not like Apple is suddenly not supporting Jaguar

it's not really a matter of continuing to support jaguar. they just aren't making new stuff for it. as well they shouldn't. there is a safari for jaguar. use it. if you want the latest and greatest from apple, it costs $$. people who keep up with all the latest stuff already have panter.

 

[janey]

hey for all of you peeps bitching about how much Apple sucks because they wont make Safari backwards compatible, I suggest you go to http://www.microsuck.com and check out their browser and operating system alternatives.
If you got a prob with paying $129 for updates that are well worth it, use Gentoo or something else that's free.
If you got a problem with the fact taht Safari is not backwards compatible, use another browser like firebird.
Yeesh.

 

[Doctor Q]

Some people are saying they expect to get improvements to Safari under Jaguar for free because Panther is fairly new so they shouldn't have to upgrade just to get the latest web browser. That's hard to justify. Free products don't come with free improvements, except at the discretion of the vendor (Apple). They might have chosen to add Panther Safari improvements to Jaguar Safari too, but this would take a lot of technical work, as other posters have explained.

Other people are saying that they should get free bug fixes even if they don't demand free improvements to the product. Again, free products don't necessarily include free bug fixes. Apple is generally helpful in providing advice and/or workarounds but Apple can't keep changing code in older versions of products indefinitely.

Finally, some people seem to expect that any product ever issued should have its bugs fixed for free, forever, since it's the vendor's fault, not the customer's fault, that the bug is there. The nature of programming is such that there will always be bugs (see note below), so it would be an exponentially growing amount of work for Apple (or anyone else) to provide bug fixes for every product forever.

However, the argument that vendors should fix bugs for recent products, such as Jaguar Safari, has some merit. When you buy a material product (think of a refrigerator), you usually expect a warranty. This entitles you to assistance over a certain amount of time. Why not for zero time? Because then the product isn't useful enough to you. Why not for decades? Because then the price of the initial warranty (which is built into the price of the product) would be too high to be worth it to you. You don't expect improvements under warranty, just fixes for problems.

The same applies to software. If you pay for a product, you'd like it to include a reasonable warranty for bugs. Even when a product is free, a company is wise to provide some service for bugs, at least when the product is recent and/or widely used, simply for the "customer satisfaction" benefits it will bring. They have to weigh that against the expense of providing it. So, for Jaguar Safari, Apple's tradeoff depends on the cost to support it. I don't think they should be shy about admitting this and being upfront about what they are willing to do and not do.

Note: Anyone want to hear the story about IEFBR14?

 

[mdriftmeyer]

Originally posted by frankly
I wish I knew what the problem was with my system. I have been unable to get ANY applets to work since the update.

🙁

Later, Frank

Do yourself a favor: Install the Developer CD or download the tools from Apple and launch Terminal.app.

Su to Root:
<your machine>$su -
<your machine>$Password:

and go take a look at the log files that are outputted.

Launch a second copy of Terminal.app running in standard user mode (your account) and from the command line launch Safari, by typing in the name of the executable. The terminal will spit out error messages to inform you of any misgivings.

Within the standard log directory--most applications have that built-in--you will be able to see what is failing.

For instance, if you want to know what XFree86 messages are being produced usually an XFree86.log file will show up.

If I run KDE on Linux and application performance has changed during upgrades I run them via commandline and I check under /var/log to discover what might be the culprit.

If one chmods permissions that were not default or chown and chgrp structures of standard (base) installations expect your system to perform differently.

If Apple does this they tend to make notice of the changes in log files as well as Support Issues.

Research your system and how it works and you'll discover not only your skill base improving but just how exactly an UNIX-based Operating System actually works.

Java errors are typically stored within the application that is trying to access the JRE.

As an example, If I want to know how come Tomcat 4.1.28 is not running I check the log files under Tomcat's references.

What is happening for people who could careless about the underpinnings of this powerful operating system is simple: The greater the level of options, features, power, etc., that OS X brings the more will be required of it's user to better understand it.

Now Apple does a wonderful job of reducing that need to a minimum but the law of diminishing returns will creep up eventually and you can either complain and not learn or constructively criticise and learn, offering solutions.

 

[ipoddin]

Originally posted by übergeek
REALLY THIS IS ALL INSANE I CANT BELIEVE HALF OF YOU n00bs INSIST YOU MUST GET A JAGUAR COMPATIBLE COPY OF SAFARI 1.2 BECAUSE YOU PAID FOR JAGUAR.

Ookay does anyone *actually* understand why it is TECHNOLOGICALLY difficult for Apple to release a Jag compatible Safari? Any Mac developer with any common sense who spent a minute developing with both versions of OS X will understand that they're in no way similar to each other.
LOOK I'm sorry, but Windows 98 and ME are practically the same except ME is ****tier. NT/2k/XP are similar too. Microsoft only has to make 2 versions of their software. On the other hand, with every OS update Apple has to work on a new one because OS X v. 10 is not the same as 10.1 or 10.2 or 10.3. You cant just get the same damned code and compile it for another OS. It practically needs a rewrite, and that takes excessive amounts of time and money. Besides, half the stuff they probably use in safari are unavailable on the older versions of the OS - same reason why you cant get an Objective-C/Cocoa/Project Builder/Xcode tutorial based on 10.1 and expect the code and the apps to work the same way in 10.3. If you want a half-baked Safari 1.2 for Jaguar...whatever man *shrug*

Half of you n00bs are complaining about stuff that Apple can't really do anything about. What would you rather have backwards compatibility or R&D? Because if you said backwards compatibility, Apple's gonna be in deep **** because they wont be able to compete with anyone else. One of the reasons why people get Macs is because Apple actually spends a good deal of time and money making their apps good. If Apple were to give up all that research and development, I might as well switch to using Linux or Windows again.

I dunno, maybe it's just me but sounds like a pretty messed up way of developing incremental upgrades to an OS by not making anyone of them compatible with each other. It's all still OS X regardless. If Panther were an entirely new OS written from scratch then I'd understand. But imo, 10.1, 10.2, and 10.3 are like Win NT/2k/XP. All really built upon the same base and in Window's case, most software written for one of those OS'es will work for all of them.