Samsung Galaxy 10.1 copies the iPad...and blows it away!

[spinedoc77]

You'd have a very hard time convincing me that most business users - from an accountant, to an attorney, to a physician, to a marketing weasel - really "needs" to access a hierarchical file system.

Lets leave aside your (not very subtle) digs at the iPad for being a "content consumption" device, suitable only for "grandmas" for a second. And take a look at our own, human, evolutionary history.

At one point, our biological pre-human ancestors had tails. And modern humans don't. Now, you could make an argument that, every once in a while, some people might find it useful to have a tail. Washing dishes would, I guess, be little easier with an extra appendage. And certainly gymnastics events would be a little more exciting. But having a tail comes at a cost: You would need to provide extra bloodsupply and calories to support a tail. And tails would make it very difficult to sit comfortably, and they'd probably always be getting (painfully) caught in elevator doors and toilet seats. Bottom line: While some people, some of the time would find a tail useful - its on balance much better that humans lost our tails.

So too with Flash. It might sometimes be useful to have. But it comes at a tremendous cost: it sucks battery and processor cycles. Its riddled with security and privacy flaws. It has a host of interface problems (no "mouseover event on a tablet). So - from a computer-evolutionary perspective: Flash is a like a tail. An unneccessary appendage we'd all, on balance, be better off without.

After looking behind me to ensure I didn't have a tail ... I'm not sure where you got that business needs a file system, I think you are confusing me with another thread. But the ipad IS a content consumption device, Apple even markets it this way, not sure where you are or aren't going with that. As a physician who writes on the order of 20-30 patient reports per day I can tell you I could never do that on an ipad, and I'm not talking about the UI or the input method, but specifically about the file system.

As for Flash, I can't quote you figures or numbers and I'll readily admit that. But I've used PC's with flash all my life, and most recently I have an Android phone and I've never seen this "tremendous cost" that Flash comes with. But the fact of the matter is that it's an integral part of the internet experience and to not have it is to not offer the internet in its entirety, at least for myself as I'm sure users will jump right in how they never ever encounter a flash site in their daily browsing. In your analogy of a tail being a vestigial appendage if you use the tail for some function then it isn't necessarily vestigial, even if it's only a small percentage of what you use your other appendages for. Flash isn't vestigial because it's not going anywhere, it's not going out of business every other smartphone and computer platform embraces them, and it's something that many people encounter on a very regular basis in their innocent web browsing. Does Apple really think they are going to ride in on a white horse and eradicate Flash when they are the only ones who are shunning it? Well excuse me if they want to attack windmills Don Quixote style, but MY reality today is that I need flash for my internet experience, and that's something that other companies understand. It's even a marketing point, the Playbook and xoom have both used it in their advertising.

By the way I never said the ipad was "only" for grandmas, and I've already admitted to it being a poor analogy. But whatever analogy you want to use for your everyday non tech layman is really what I meant, and that IS Apple's bread and butter when it comes to the ipad. Of course very tech people also buy the ipad, but the masses that purchase it are not necessarily network engineers or software programmers. Once again I didn't mean Grandma as a slight, just a crappy analogy, once again I own an ipad myself and don't sit up at night in an attempt to come up with better ways to insult myself.

Kind of summarily, I think some are taking my points too literally and not so much figuratively as they are meant to be. Do I really expect the ipad3 to sprout a keyboard and be able to run microsoft spreadsheets? No, but I do expect either a) some kind of evolution which would bring the ipad to more business type functions, or b) Apple will continue to market the ipad as a 3rd device for content consumption and leave their iMacs and Macbooks as the serious business machines. It's interesting to note that any evolution such as this will first have to be weighed in as a business decision and not an altruistic gift to humankind, despite the beliefs of some.

 

[NebulaClash]

Reading about something and using it are 2 completely different things.
An opinion is not being invalidated because one disagrees, it's invalidated because of lack of experience using anything else.

When you have users using both platforms extensively, it stands reason that they are better informed, and have a more valid point of reference.
Unless you want to adopt the pedantic view that someone spends $900 on a device, just to say it sucks.

1. You assume I have not tried Android devices. I have not said so.

2. You are saying that only a person who uses a product can determine if that product is right for them. So now I have to try a Rolls Royce to know if my Toyota is right for me or not. And I have to go to every movie that comes out before I can figure out if I might want to see it or not. And I can only tell if I would find useful certain Android features if I try it for myself, instead of imagining myself using them and deciding if I need it or not. This is a bizarre way to go through life.

I'm sorry for the Android folks. They have the true believers that the Linux folks have. Linux has done great on the server side, but not on the user side. Why? Users know nothing about how things run. Only hackers and geeks know that. Users get a PC, and then they run whatever is on it. That's why Microsoft won.

Phones are similar. Only geeks care what runs their phones. The vast majority of users buy whatever is available. Android suddenly became "popular" simply because hundreds of phone manufacturers thought it would save them money to switch to free Android, and so overnight most of the phones a person could buy were running Android. If the phone manufactures decided overnight to switch to some new OS, instantly the use of Android would plummet and the new OS would suddenly be the hot new thing. Even though most users would hardly know they were running it.

Tablets are PCs. You are not getting them free, and you have to pay substantial amounts of money. You have to be motivated to get one. In this market, the Android devices are not selling well and the iPad cannot stay in stock. That's what happens when you actually get real choice in the market: people choose iOS.

So while I'm all in favor of FOSS, and run a machine at home using Linux, and love the concept of Android, I see no reason that appeals to me to switch from my iPhone and my iPad. They do everything I want to do. With elegance. And no headaches.

So keep preaching the Android truth if you wish, but you're on the wrong site if you think you'll find people who care. And you're gonna hate what Google does to Android in the future.

 

[spinedoc77]

No, I keep saying while business needs change technology, technology also changes business needs. Business will change their workflows and commission Apps in order to use the iPad. It's already happening.

To expand on the point, mice weren't developed to address a business need; the 'windows' GUI paradigm wasn't developed because businesses said 'we need this' (some people realized it could be useful, but business wasn't the main driver of some independent variable called 'technology') etc. Yet these ended up being 'indispensable' for business.

Technology causes business to evolve, and plenty of businesses are scrambling to incorporate the iPad into their operations. Less down-time, portable, cheap, comissionable Apps - technology is causing business to change around it. Both affect each other.

Certainly, and I've never argued the opposite. I've seen much ipad use in hospitals this last year and it's certainly changed the way medical technology is run. The ipad WILL integrate into many businesses and that's a good thing. But along the way if it makes Apple money you can be SURE they will work their technology around it as well. I think we are in agreement, they both go hand in hand and constantly affect each other.

 

[Carouser]

Certainly, and I've never argued the opposite. I've seen much ipad use in hospitals this last year and it's certainly changed the way medical technology is run. The ipad WILL integrate into many businesses and that's a good thing. But along the way if it makes Apple money you can be SURE they will work their technology around it as well. I think we are in agreement, they both go hand in hand and constantly affect each other.

Yes, good, we totally agree - but that is why I am staunch on the point that 'more desktop-like' is a poor metric for where the iPad needs to go (to accommodate business users or anyone else). Why? Because 'more desktop-like' just means 'does more' so it's not saying much. Or maybe it means 'does things the way things are currently done with filesystems and specific programs etc.' which is clearly unnecessary, since we've jettisoned all kinds of interfaces and ways of doing things (like punch cards, thus my example). I am not sure if you disagree.

 

[spinedoc77]

Yes, good, we totally agree - but that is why I am staunch on the point that 'more desktop-like' is a poor metric for where the iPad needs to go (to accommodate business users or anyone else). Why? Because 'more desktop-like' just means 'does more' so it's not saying much. Or maybe it means 'does things the way things are currently done with filesystems and specific programs etc.' which is clearly unnecessary, since we've jettisoned all kinds of interfaces and ways of doing things (like punch cards, thus my example). I am not sure if you disagree.

I think the problem lies in you taking my "desktop" analogy too literally. Certainly I won't make believe I know what the eventual evolution of tablets will be, otherwise I'd be working for Apple or Samsung. The literal "desktop" has come and gone in the form of the TabletPC which so famously tanked due to too much emphasis on business. As somewhat of an antithesis to this Apple emerged as an incredible winner.

In the end it's all just opinions, and my opinions may stink but they are there to express! Personally I do believe we are on a course for melding tablets and computers into something, possibly some kind of cloud server with "thin" client tablets where most consumer computers will disappear. How do we consolidate the interface, the file system, the input/keyboard/mouse, things like that are evolutions waiting to happen IMO. Taken even a step further I believe computers will meld into tablets which will meld into smartphones, possibly the era of foldable screens and such. The 3 devices will become one, we are just too much a "now" society to not want all of our functions available to us at the same time.

It's certainly interesting to discuss these topics and as I've stated before I'm glad I live in these times. I can just remember putting together my first PC over 20 years ago, I could have never imagined having something like the ipad or xoom.

 

[NebulaClash]

I could have never imagined having something like the ipad or xoom.

Me either, except in science fiction.

Can you imagine if the Android tablets had led the way instead of following the iPad? They could have owned this market.

 

[spinedoc77]

Me either, except in science fiction.

Can you imagine if the Android tablets had led the way instead of following the iPad? They could have owned this market.

Absolutely. Even more depressing is the giant glob of directionless Microsoft. I'm an old time super avid Windows Mobile/PocketPC user. I'm that geek you saw 10 years ago trying to make a CF 1xrt card work with a PocketPC device and trying to make it dial out and become a smartphone, ahh those were the days, i'd spend months and months on that stuff. I think I still have some of that lying around. Microsoft SOOOO much had the opportunity to make this market and they let it slip away. It's funny because on every single PocketPC forum there were droves and droves of users who begged Microsoft to do exactly what Apple ended up doing with the iphone.

 

[Tarzanman]

Me either, except in science fiction.

Can you imagine if the Android tablets had led the way instead of following the iPad? They could have owned this market.

I doubt it. Apple wasn't the first, second, or third,company to have an mp3 player. They were number 4, 5 or 6. (Diamond, Creative, and a few other smaller companies all had players years before Apple did)

What Apple did do is bundle a large music service together with it and dump an obscene amount of advertising and marketing dollars into it.

Apple did not make the first tablet. iPad was only a large success like it has been because of its similarity with an obscenely popular device, the iPhone.

If Blackberry had put out a tablet (among other things they didn't do) then it would have had pretty good success because they already had some productive mobile applications. When the iPad 1 came out, most android phones had problems reading PDFs... and wouldn't do flash. The OS wasn't there yet.

Different story now

 

[NebulaClash]

And too late now. They had their chance and took too long. They didn't have the vision to see what the market wanted in time to be first with the right solution. By copying what Apple did (and adding their own stuff on top), they allowed Apple to have what I expect will be a permanent majority slice of the tablet pie.

The only way I see Android taking over the tablet market is if they drop to $100 (but so will Apple at that point, just as you can get a $49 iPhone and a $49 iPod), or if the cell carriers give them away to lock you into a contract (as with phones).

 

[blueroom]

Absolutely. Even more depressing is the giant glob of directionless Microsoft. I'm an old time super avid Windows Mobile/PocketPC user. I'm that geek you saw 10 years ago trying to make a CF 1xrt card work with a PocketPC device and trying to make it dial out and become a smartphone, ahh those were the days, i'd spend months and months on that stuff. I think I still have some of that lying around. Microsoft SOOOO much had the opportunity to make this market and they let it slip away. It's funny because on every single PocketPC forum there were droves and droves of users who begged Microsoft to do exactly what Apple ended up doing with the iphone.

+1 I too am that sort of geek. I've got a couple old CE devices laying around here somewhere, the HP iPAQ 5450 cost me more than an iPad 3G. It was good for playing solitaire but more or less rubbish. I also just hated ActiveSync but I also hated iTunes at the time too.

I think I'll fire up the old iPAQ just to remember the love. Now where the hell is that stylus...

 

[spinedoc77]

+1 I too am that sort of geek. I've got a couple old CE devices laying around here somewhere, the HP iPAQ 5450 cost me more than an iPad 3G. It was good for playing solitaire but more or less rubbish. I also just hated ActiveSync but I also hated iTunes at the time too.

I think I'll fire up the old iPAQ just to remember the love. Now where the hell is that stylus...
Image

Oh god you are bringing back memories. Man activesync, or activestink as we called it back then really blew, really reminds me of itunes in many ways but it was much worse. We paid big money back then for these things, sigh.

 

[MrWillie]

Absolutely no condescension meant towards grandmothers, my apologies if I came across that way. I'll use "average non technical joe schmoe who doesn't know his way around electronics or software and doesn't need a full computer but only needs a media and internet consumption device" instead of the term grandmother as that better describes what I'm trying to get across. I know the post went above your head, most of all because either I am 1) not a grandmother but I do own an ipad2/iphone/Mac air, or 2) I am really a grandmother and am attempting to be condescending to myself.

As for the interface, you still haven't demonstrated anything differently from what I posted. iOS for business use just doesn't cut it, if Apple wants to come out with a different OS paradigm and make their tablets business centric then all the more power to them, but they haven't. I like both OS' for different reasons, as I mentioned I own an ipad2/iphone4 and am both satisfied and unsatisfied with them for differing reasons. There are things about Android I don't like as well, certainly. But when people shout out that Android is junk, or that they will be dead in 3-4 years it just doesn't make sense. It will be an interesting race and I am glad I live in these times for sure, with the choice of both iOS and Android, and others as well.

Then why are businesses adopting it ? Why do people insist it's non technical Joes that are buying them. I can sit here from my home and access clients SCADA computers from my iPad. Quite a few don't allow you to do that with Android devices. It's all about security.

Yes Android will be dead on tablets in three years or so. The writing is on the wall. Even Google is taking action to adapt to a changing market.

Yep, when the iPad first came out, Steve said consumption device. Has he said it since ? Apps have been developed and released. Hell, Apple even released Garage Band for the iPad 2. Let's give the consumption device phrase a rest...

I doubt it. Apple wasn't the first, second, or third,company to have an mp3 player. They were number 4, 5 or 6. (Diamond, Creative, and a few other smaller companies all had players years before Apple did)

What Apple did do is bundle a large music service together with it and dump an obscene amount of advertising and marketing dollars into it.

Apple did not make the first tablet. iPad was only a large success like it has been because of its similarity with an obscenely popular device, the iPhone.

If Blackberry had put out a tablet (among other things they didn't do) then it would have had pretty good success because they already had some productive mobile applications. When the iPad 1 came out, most android phones had problems reading PDFs... and wouldn't do flash. The OS wasn't there yet.

Different story now

Yep Apple wasn't the first 'MP3’ player on the market. But was/is the best. Just like Apple makes the best tablet. If it was only marketing or advertising, other companies could run more ads or hire a better marketing department. What was Motorola thinking. A card slot that STILL doesn't work. Blackberry releases a tablet without an email client, they offer a work around, but the carriers block it. What Android tablet does Netflix? What about phones ? (There are only five or so Android phones that Netflix is supposed to work on, but doesn't.) So tell me, what's different now ? Widgets ?

Edit: The Norton. What happened to it ? They took your money (6-8 months before you got your device), delayed the launch (due to gross incompetence), sent you your device, and when you booted it up, it said please update. Then you had a brick. Yea, it's only marketing and advertising.

 

[henchman]

1. You assume I have not tried Android devices. I have not said so.

Well, have you used Androd extensively?

And yes, if one wants to act as an authority on something, they need to have hands on experience.


Its Not as if I don't have an iPad, and am just extolling the greatness of Android.
Therecare some really cool things about and on the iPad.
There are some fantastic apps.

But the UI on iOS sucks the bg one.

 

[patp]

Well, have you used Androd extensively?

And yes, if one wants to act as an authority on something, they need to have hands on experience.


Its Not as if I don't have an iPad, and am just extolling the greatness of Android.
Therecare some really cool things about and on the iPad.
There are some fantastic apps.

But the UI on iOS sucks the bg one.

this is nothing more than one man's opinion.

 

[henchman]

this is nothing more than one man's opinion.

A well informed opinion,with a more in-depth frame of reference, being a user of both platforms.

 

[Carouser]

A well informed opinion,with a more in-depth frame of reference, being a user of both platforms.

Do you have any qualifications in evaluating what makes a good UI, or do you just like one of them more after using both of them?

 

[henchman]

Do you have any qualifications in evaluating what makes a good UI, or do you just like one of them more after using both of them?

My qualifications are based on comparisons in using both f them.
Something mostof the Android critics here can't say.
It's painfully clear from most of the comments,they haven't used both platforms, yetbare highly dismissive and critical of one of them.

Therefore, their arguments and opinions have no meaning whatsoever.

Can you look at 2 glasses of wine,taste one and then, without trying the other, state that based on where the wine is from, it is absolutely better than the glass you haven't sampled?

Didn't think so.

 

[andrewlgm]

i will buy one of these when Ipad 3 comes up. by then ipad 2 should be where Ipad 1 is right now, $350, and god only knows where these android devices will be. probably selling for less than $200... what bothers me is that each of these companies are putting out good products, but support is nonexistent. you get no info on when or if new software will ever be put out. took forever for my android phone to receive its update, months after google release their last OS.

so if anyone is looking for support and integration, I'd go apple. My ipad 1 had wifi issues, I walked in and out with a brand new device. Nothing is better than instant resolution. I've had to mail in far too many electronics to know what it feels like.

 

[Carouser]

Therefore, their arguments and opinions have no meaning whatsoever.

Can you look at 2 glasses of wine,taste one and then, without trying the other, state that based on where the wine is from, it is absolutely better than the glass you haven't sampled?

Didn't think so.

No, but the opinion of someone who has tried both and says one is better is useless if they're a drunk, a moron, someone who doesn't share the same criteria for 'good' as me, or if they have no idea how to evaluate wine in the first place besides "I like that one".

 

[henchman]

No, but the opinion of someone who has tried both and says one is better is useless if they're a drunk, a moron, someone who doesn't share the same criteria for 'good' as me, or if they have no idea how to evaluate wine in the first place besides "I like that one".

But the person who only tries one, will never have a valid argument.
Period.
You can sit here and argue your opinion based on a one-sided love of all that is Apple, and hatred of all that isn't.
But it holds zero weight, no matter how you try to twist or turn it.

It is not I, but you who is close minded.
Sorry, but bit IS that simple.

 

[Carouser]

You can sit here and argue your opinion based on a one-sided love of all that is Apple, and hatred of all that isn't.
But it holds zero weight, no matter how you try to twist or turn it.

It is not I, but you who is close minded.
Sorry, but bit IS that simple.

Just listen to yourself.
Where did I post my opinion about OS UI vs. Android UI? I was just curious how much weight to give your opinion. I thought maybe you worked in UI or something like that, or whether it's just your preference based on using both of them, because it tells me how much weight to give your opinion.

EDIT: I accept your apology for your simple argument, thanks.

 

[henchman]

Just listen to yourself.
Where did I post my opinion about OS UI vs. Android UI? I was just curious how much weight to give your opinion. I thought maybe you worked in UI or something like that, or whether it's just your preference based on using both of them, because it tells me how much weight to give your opinion.

And why is that question not asked to those criticizing they've never even used?

 

[ezekielrage_99]

Well, have you used Androd extensively?

And yes, if one wants to act as an authority on something, they need to have hands on experience.


Its Not as if I don't have an iPad, and am just extolling the greatness of Android.
Therecare some really cool things about and on the iPad.
There are some fantastic apps.

But the UI on iOS sucks the bg one.

I disagree, iPad does have a winning formula for the moment with a good supported store/community, excellent UI and relatively good hardware (minus the lightbleed SNAFU with the iPad2). I have both iPad 1 and 2 and a dev Android Tablet.

The main issue with the competitors has nothing to actually do with Android, it's a very good platform (as good as iOS in many ways) it's purely to do with the many flavors of ill conceived hardware and 3rd party stores. This is iPad's main strength for the moment, being a platform of both hardware and software and having the support ecosystem (Appstore, Applecare, etc..) which for the moment Samsung, HTC, Sony and Motorola just does not have.

It will be a matter of time before some company does make a decent rival, but for now there seems to be much cargo culting and rushed product releases, so the iPad will remain the defaulted gold standard for tablets until a decent competitive rival arrives. (I am not an Apple fanboy but I'm a firm believer any tech ecosystem needs good competition).

 

[Carouser]

And why is that question not asked to those criticizing they've never even used?

Because they're not as rude or confident in expressing their opinions as you are, because they rarely treat their opinions like fact, and I already know how to evaluate their opinions.

 

[fizzwinkus]

I have used both android and iOS. Therefore, I am an objective, unassailable critic of both.

Android sucks the big one.