So will Apple ever offer us the full web in a tablet device like the others do?

[BaldiMac]

I was specifically responding to “Try converting mouse hovering to touch events”.

No problem. I was just adding context to the claim you were responding to, since you appeared to take it out of that context.

This line of thinking can be applied to Flash.

There is no evidence, that I know of**, that Apple didn't have plans to allow Flash from the beginning. It just wasn't ready.

** “Thoughts on Flash” is not evidence.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. "Thoughts on Flash" indicated that Apple did consider including Flash, but Adobe didn't deliver a version of Flash that met Apple's standards. Only Jobs knows if this is true.

 

[kdarling]

I remember that back when the iPhone was announced, it was widely assumed that it would soon have at least Flash video support, if not full Flash (or at least Flashlite):

Walt Mossberg Q&A Article, WSJ, Jul 2007:

"Question: If the iPhone’s Web browser is so good, why can’t it play video on Web sites I visit?

"Answer: At launch, the iPhone version of the Safari browser is missing some plug-ins needed for playing common types of Web videos. The most important of these is the plug-in for Adobe’s Flash technology. Apple says it plans to add that plug-in through an early software update, which I am guessing will occur within the next couple of months."

(Never happened, though he repeated this a few times.)

NY Times, Jan 2007, about lack of third party apps:

"If there is a Adobe Flash player available for the iPhone, and if it supports the Internet standards that are being widely used by the developers of a proliferating array of Web services, Apple’s decision to restrict software development may not matter."

 

[mKTank]

So we are comparing different OSs, diffent GPU, different CPU, ect...

Mostly I'm making the point that Flash is excellent technology that delivers smooth performance and exceptional stability...

...for 90% of the market, anyway.

 

[Mactrillionaire]

And yes, I´m talking about the infamous "F word".

It seems that all the other tablets are starting to offer the full web experience. F is now much better and efficient and looks like it´s never going away, at least for a very long time. The hardware is also much more powerful now.

Will Apple swallow their pride? Ever? iPad 2? Maybe 3?

Or do we who would like a full web in a tablet device have to start looking elsewhere? Or maybe just get a MBA then?

No Flash on iOS devices is not a conspiracy as some seem to think. The reason there is no Flash on iOS devices is specifically because of what happens to them when memory is not properly managed on a wider scale. Of course, I can't tell you what happens because that information is protected under NDA. Just, suffice it to say, accept that there is a good reason why Flash is not included on iOS devices. Heck, it even causes memory issues when running in Safari. I've seen it use more than a gigabyte of memory at a time and never return it to the system until I quit Safari. So, CLEARLY, Adobe needs to clean up its act if it wants Flash Player on more platforms. It is not and SHOULD NOT be Apple's problem if they don't do this. The other issue with Adobe software in general is that they have a tendency to have a lot of leftover legacy code because they do not revisit and update a lot of older code used for basic program functionality. Adobe should know better than this, but they just can't be bothered to care unless it affects their bottom line.

 

[Creative One]

So will [insert company here] ever offer us [insert demand for something obsolete here] like imitators do?

 

[Mactrillionaire]

So will [insert company here] ever offer us [insert demand for something obsolete here] like imitators do?

Maybe, but Apple generally has a clever strategy. Apple will pursue patents that they have no intention of developing themselves. It's just a good dose of well earned futility for the copycats to get to work on imitating at their own expense.

 

[BaldiMac]

Mostly I'm making the point that Flash is excellent technology that delivers smooth performance and exceptional stability...

Except your not making a point. You are stating your opinion.

...for 90% of the market, anyway.

And making up stats to support it.

 

[Saladinos]

Steve Jobs:"While Adobe’s Flash products are widely available, this does not mean they are open"
FACT: Adobe opened the SWF specification in 2008. You can create SWFs without Adobe products.

Perhaps, but if Adobe don't like what you're doing with it, they will sue you.


See RTMPdump.

 

[mKTank]

Except your not making a point. You are stating your opinion.



And making up stats to support it.

Nope, it's a fact. Same goes for the stats. Macs are less relevant in the desktop OS space than you'd like to think.

Nobody to blame for Flash being rubbish on OSX than Apple. Instead of helping Adobe, they just took the childish, usual restrictive route. Well, have fun with HTML5. Excuse me whilst I go and watch, oh I don't know, over 70% of the web.

 

[BaldiMac]

Nope, it's a fact.

Can you source the "fact" that "Flash is excellent technology?"

Same goes for the stats. Macs are less relevant in the desktop OS space than you'd like to think.

Source for the "fact" that Flash "delivers smooth performance and exceptional stability... for 90% of the market?"

Nobody to blame for Flash being rubbish on OSX than Apple.

And here I was thinking that Adobe was the current developer for Flash.

Instead of helping Adobe, they just took the childish, usual restrictive route.

You misunderstand the relationship between a platform developer and an application developer. And you are making up Apple's motivations without any knowledge of the situation.

Well, have fun with HTML5. Excuse me whilst I go and watch, oh I don't know, over 70% of the web.

And another made up fact.

 

[Meever]

^this.

Flash threatens Apple's ability to skim profits from everything served on an i-device. Even if (when) it runs more efficiently than HTML Canvas and JavaScript, they will still try to marginalize it (because that serves their bottom line)

Except for the fact that there are many sites that let you stream all sorts of videos for ipad now. And there aren't very many quality flash games anymore since the indies scene has been revitalized by the whole concept of "cheap publishing" via PSN/XBL/Steam/Appstore/etc

Flash sucks. Even when I was building PCs with crossfire gpus with WinXP/WinVista optimized to the best of my abilities flash was still crashing my firefox more often than I would have liked to admit.

HTML5 is the ****. I want everyone to just play nice and agree on the standard so we can finally get the internet finally up to modern standards (yeah, bit of an ironic statement I know XD)

 

[ciaran00]

My personal opinion: I don't really care for Flash, or for content in Flash - because a lot of this content seems to be on its way to porting over anyway.

The reason I'd like Flash, and not just Flash, but a more complete browsing experience (like file uploading in Mobile Safari) is so that I really can browse around like I do on my Mac, except better (as it was promised). I have observed that Mobile Safari does appear to be crippled on a few websites - I don't know why this is, but Mobile Safari just chokes on whatever the content is and pukes out something that is not that website.

Things like quick tabbed browsing, native support of more complex web apps out there (like Google's), integration of extensions (like 1Password), adding improved metrics of loading a page - this is far more disruptive on an iOS device than it is on Safari on my Mac.

In my opinion, Flash is just a piece of the puzzle. Browsing on iOS is crippled, and we can all feel it, and we'd like it to go away - so that it is indeed better than a Mac.

From an interface point of view, iOS is a better browsing experience, but Mobile Safari seems to choke on web technologies quite significantly still.

I think the total lack of file associations capability (not the crippled version they have today) also contributes to the feeling that my browsing experience is not quite 100%. For example, I can't download a zip, unzip it and check out what's inside (without jailbreaking).

 

[silroc]

IMO this is what makes me laugh a bit at the fanboys - they cannot separate "their views" from "others views"

many folks (not all) want the "CHOICE" to use flash on an apple mobile device, all the negatives be damned....


the pro choice people dont want to force you or anyone to use it, or lose battery life, or lose your boyfriend over it..

They just want the ability to use it if THEY CHOOSE. so like them, I am PRO CHOICE.

You and Steve can tell folks till the cows come home that "flash sucks" and yall may be right, but it still doesnt matter if people want it-

 

[Night Spring]

For example, I can't download a zip, unzip it and check out what's inside (without jailbreaking).

I believe you can do this with GoodReader.

 

[Fernandez21]

My personal opinion: I don't really care for Flash, or for content in Flash - because a lot of this content seems to be on its way to porting over anyway.

The reason I'd like Flash, and not just Flash, but a more complete browsing experience (like file uploading in Mobile Safari) is so that I really can browse around like I do on my Mac, except better (as it was promised). I have observed that Mobile Safari does appear to be crippled on a few websites - I don't know why this is, but Mobile Safari just chokes on whatever the content is and pukes out something that is not that website.

Things like quick tabbed browsing, native support of more complex web apps out there (like Google's), integration of extensions (like 1Password), adding improved metrics of loading a page - this is far more disruptive on an iOS device than it is on Safari on my Mac.

In my opinion, Flash is just a piece of the puzzle. Browsing on iOS is crippled, and we can all feel it, and we'd like it to go away - so that it is indeed better than a Mac.

From an interface point of view, iOS is a better browsing experience, but Mobile Safari seems to choke on web technologies quite significantly still.

I think the total lack of file associations capability (not the crippled version they have today) also contributes to the feeling that my browsing experience is not quite 100%. For example, I can't download a zip, unzip it and check out what's inside (without jailbreaking).

This is one of the main reasons I haven't gotten an iPad (or any tablet), why pay a premimium for a device that I find myself putting down to go back to my laptop because I can't view a website? On the phone it's more understandable, it's pocketable so I get having limitations so I can carry it with me always, but that's not the case with a tablet.

 

[ApplesAOranges]

This is one of the main reasons I haven't gotten an iPad (or any tablet), why pay a premimium for a device that I find myself putting down to go back to my laptop because I can't view a website? On the phone it's more understandable, it's pocketable so I get having limitations so I can carry it with me always, but that's not the case with a tablet.

That´s the same with me, but maybe we just don´t get it?

I mean the so called "FBs" are saying that the crippled websites are actually BETTER than browsing on a real Safari on a Mac and seeing the websites like they were meant to be seen?

But could they and Steve be right?



p.s. FB = Flash Basher

 

[BaldiMac]

IMO this is what makes me laugh a bit at the fanboys - they cannot separate "their views" from "others views"

many folks (not all) want the "CHOICE" to use flash on an apple mobile device, all the negatives be damned....


the pro choice people dont want to force you or anyone to use it, or lose battery life, or lose your boyfriend over it..

They just want the ability to use it if THEY CHOOSE. so like them, I am PRO CHOICE.

You and Steve can tell folks till the cows come home that "flash sucks" and yall may be right, but it still doesnt matter if people want it-

And yet, ironically, it's the PRO CHOICE people that are arguing for eliminating a choice. The choice to buy a device that does not support Flash. And the choice to support a device that promotes open standards on the web over a proprietary plugin.

The PRO CHOICE people have many, many choices that support Flash already.

I'm not against Flash over performance or battery life or stability or any of the other arguments that are repeated over and over. I choose not to use it because of principle related to privacy and proprietary control of a huge source of content on the internet. Apple's decision to ban Flash is good for me because it promotes the alternative delivery of content. Which means that I have access to more content with Flash disabled. Something that would not be true to the same degree if Apple provided Flash with an on/off switch.

 

[fertilized-egg]

They just want the ability to use it if THEY CHOOSE. so like them, I am PRO CHOICE.

You and Steve can tell folks till the cows come home that "flash sucks" and yall may be right, but it still doesnt matter if people want it-

But people don't want it bad enough to stop buying Apple products. If they really wanted Flash that badly, the iPhone and the iPad would've failed already and Apple would've reconsidered their stance.

Also choice isn't always a good thing. I have a couple of sites I frequent and they provide some neat data in tabular format. But guys use Silverlight of all things. When I asked one of them why Silverlight, he told me he had already been a .net developer so Silverlight was the "quick way," and he didn't want to spend time implementing it in PHP and HTML like most others else would've done. Likewise Jobs' contention was that if he were to give developers that kind of choice, the iOS ecosystem will be flooded by countless quick Flash jobs that negatively affects the user experience.

As a side note, I found it funny that Google and RIM call their browsing "full web" when they don't support Silverlight. I know it's a minor plug in but it's them who want to keep insisting it's "full" instead of a "Flash supported" web experience.

The PRO CHOICE people have many, many choices that support Flash already.

I agree. If Flash is important, go ahead and buy a device that support Flash. Apple made a reasoned decision regarding it and it doesn't look they are going to support it. I don't agree with them 100% but it's their decision and their product. If people think Flash is that important, the market will decide.

 

[brock2621]

That´s the same with me, but maybe we just don´t get it?

I mean the so called "FBs" are saying that the crippled websites are actually BETTER than browsing on a real Safari on a Mac and seeing the websites like they were meant to be seen?

But could they and Steve be right?



p.s. FB = Flash Basher

Yeah, Flash is SO important. I don't think 10 million more iPads will be sold this next year because Apple won't include it. As a matter of fact, I think iPhones and iPads will probably just disappear all together this year because flash is just TOO important to people. They will vote with their wallets for sure!!!!


Oh wait, that's right, people are starting to forget about it. Sites are starting to build mobile versions, and youtube and vimeo have HTML5 etc. etc.

BYEBYE FLASH!!! Tell RealPlayer I said hello!

 

[Piggie]

That´s the same with me, but maybe we just don´t get it?

I mean the so called "FBs" are saying that the crippled websites are actually BETTER than browsing on a real Safari on a Mac and seeing the websites like they were meant to be seen?

But could they and Steve be right?



p.s. FB = Flash Basher

I'm not getting involved with this any more, but just wished to let you know you are wasting your time trying to explain this to some people.

This photo I feel pretty much sums up what you are up against:

http://www.ecosherpa.com/images/notlistening.jpg

 

[BaldiMac]

I'm not getting involved with this any more, but just wished to let you know you are wasting your time trying to explain this to some people.

This photo I feel pretty much sums up what you are up against:

http://www.ecosherpa.com/images/notlistening.jpg

You are confusing not agreeing with not listening. Of course their are some people that are not listening - on both sides of the argument. But why would you pop in to imply that it's only the "other side" that's not listening?

 

[Carouser]

I mean the so called "FBs" are saying that the crippled websites are actually BETTER than browsing on a real Safari on a Mac and seeing the websites like they were meant to be seen?

Could you link to the person or people who said this? Thanks. Maybe you forgot about this post I wrote summing up the thread and explaining the issues in detail, an explanation you, ApplesAOranges, the thread starter, even thanked me for. Why don't you read it again, and make a substantive point if you have one, instead of spamming the thread with garbage FUD.

 

[mklnk]

Oh no... I can't play lemonadetycoon on my ipad's web browser.... Or catch up on strongbad's latest emails...

Seriously, what vital flash based web sites am i supposed to be missing out on?

 

[Piggie]

Oh no... I can't play lemonadetycoon on my ipad's web browser.... Or catch up on strongbad's latest emails...

Seriously, what vital flash based web sites am i supposed to be missing out on?

You must remember that you are no more important that anyone else.

You're needs and your preferences are no more important than mine, or mine yours. Everyone who uses the internet has their own interests and things that they enjoy. Be it reference works on nuclear physics or seeing how many balls they can throw in a hoop. It is for everyone.

What people who are trying to argue in favour of Flash are attempting to explain is that they feel, the best way is for any device to be able to offer people as wide a range of "what's out there" as possible.

So that you and a 5 year old child you loves funny animations can both equally enjoy the richness of the internet.

You perhaps (I have not followed your text) and/or others are arguing that devices should be made that restrict what can be seen by everyone as you don't like it or want it.

As a consumer, you should never argue for less, or for options to be taken away from you. That is a silly way, unless it hurts people like drugs, or guns.

What makes this argument even more stupid is that it's not a true belief, it's a constructed belief based upon some argument between two companies and the views of one person at the head of Apple.

If Apple had (or did) work with Adobe, Flash could now be running on Mac's and iPads as smooth as silk and PC owners would be complaining that it runs on Mac's better, and then Apple fans would be saying how great Flash is as the company they like fully supports is.

It's a totally made up argument in the 1st place.

But as I said, you should never argue and champion for things to be taken away and choice to be removed.

There are many things I don't like or don't want, but I don't go telling others that my needs are more important than their needs as that would make me look an ass.

But then again, I know I'm wasting my breath with all this

 

[Carouser]

You are confusing not agreeing with not listening. Of course their are some people that are not listening - on both sides of the argument. But why would you pop in to imply that it's only the "other side" that's not listening?

Why? After reading all Piggie's posts (in this thread and elsewhere), where he perpetually mischaracterizes what other people are saying, where he ignores posts addressed specifically directed towards him, where he plays the victim card, where he constantly equivocates and dances around the matter, do you really need to ask that kind of question?

Maybe Piggie would like to read the following and respond to it; I'm curious if he saw it before.