Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

You cite Adobe itself for the "truth" about Flash. Riiight.

You cite Gizmodo for HTML 5 information, when they are at odds with Apple. Riiiight.

Look, I understand why Flash supporters don't want to lose their money stream. But c'mon, you gotta try to use arguments from sides that don't have a vested interest in arguing against Apple.
 
Thanks for those links, very interesting, Even more than I already knew in there.

Unfortunately despite any facts that may be posted here, it's clear with a select number of people it's like banging your head against a wall. They have a fixed point of view and nothing will make them change their mind.

Well I say nothing as I'm sure you know one thing would make them change their mind. Steve Jobs and Apple deciding the time it right to work with as opposed to against Adobe and to embrace Flash. Then and only then will these people change their mind as they would not continue with their current viewpoint against the company they feel can do no wrong.

I have come to accept it's a pointless argument with them. They have their mind fixed for them, and that's that.

The rest of us, then have our choice to carry on putting up with things as they are, and just accept these people, or to move onto other platforms that are going to support things we feel should be supported.

Agree to disagree I guess you could say.
Pretty much. It's rage inducing reading what some people actually believe in despite common sense. Just because some old guy somewhere said so.
 
You cite Adobe itself for the "truth" about Flash. Riiight.

You cite Gizmodo for HTML 5 information, when they are at odds with Apple. Riiiight.

Look, I understand why Flash supporters don't want to lose their money stream. But c'mon, you gotta try to use arguments from sides that don't have a vested interest in arguing against Apple.

You have zero proof to back up your statements that claim that the sites are biased against Apple.

I do find it interesting however that you think reading about Flash from Apple is perfectly fine and reading about Flash from reputable news sources is not. Perfectly outlines my previous post as well as the point Piggie made.
 
And that was probably Apple´s plan all along and you went for it! :p

Maybe next Apple will exclude the iPod from the iPhone, so everyone has to buy an iPhone AND an separate iPod!

Heh. I have to confess, in addition to the iPad and the Air, I also carry an iPod touch with me pretty much everywhere, because when it comes to listening to music, neither the iPad nor the Air is as convenient as the small and pocketable iPod. An iMac on my desk completes my Apple collection. Apple sure knows how to get its customers to buy more stuff from them, I give you that!
 
The rest of us, then have our choice to carry on putting up with things as they are, and just accept these people, or to move onto other platforms that are going to support things we feel should be supported

Not wanting to get into this argument, entertaining as it is, but isn't moving on to another platform just what is recommended by many people who don't think the iPad should support Flash.
 
So people are actually defending Apple's stance on not integrating Flash into their mobile device's browsers?

Wow. That is true fanboyism.
Ease up on the mudslingin', chief.

Apple actually has some pretty good reasons for working to oppose Flash. Adobe has treated the Mac platform as a second class citizen for Flash for a very long time now, it is a closed (in every meaningful sense of the word) technology, on the web, governed by one company. I'd support them for either of those reasons. Personally, I'm happy enough to do it because, as a web designer, I see all the inaccessible trash which winds up being coded in it.

Someone gave a great example of a product database of some sort. What kind of moron would require flash to interface with a product database? It has applications—games, various applications, multimedia-heavy sites such as a car website or a movie website—but even some of those will be replaced with better alternatives in years to come.
 
You have zero proof to back up your statements that claim that the sites are biased against Apple.

I do find it interesting however that you think reading about Flash from Apple is perfectly fine and reading about Flash from reputable news sources is not. Perfectly outlines my previous post as well as the point Piggie made.

Where did I say reading about Flash from Apple is perfectly fine?

You honestly aren't aware of Adobe's and Gizmodo's history with Apple?
 
Well you like to sugar code it, that´s fine. You love Steve, I get it.

What in the world are you saying? I never even met Steve Jobs. I respect him as a CEO. Why do do have to play the irrational fanboy card?

I see it as rude and childish behaviour from both parties, but Steve started it! ;)

Rude and childish? Seriously? There was nothing rude about the post. Everyone was debating why Apple chose to not include Flash on iOS devices. Jobs provided a clear explanation as to the reason behind their decision. You might argue that those reasons are not good enough for you. But you weren't the one making the decision.

You know, I would like to live in this "Flashles HTML5 utopia" too, but I just don´t see it happening for a long time, if ever...

Either does Apple. They see it as a trade off.

And in the meanwhile, is it wrong to want Apple to offer their customers a tablet device that has the full web like all the other tablets?

There are no tablets that offer the full web. But as to what you really meant, no, it is not wrong to want Apple to offer a tablet with Flash.

I mean isn´t Apple a company that likes to listen to their customers and make them happy?

No. They are a company that like to make what they believe are great products and offer them to their customers in exchange for money

At least an option to turn Flash ON/OFF for Pete´s sake! :eek:

The option would allow developer a crutch that will delay the implementation of alternatives to Flash. Which means less content for those of us who choose to not use Flash. You know, the ones who prefer open over closed on the internet. Or value our privacy. Or prefer that one company didn't control an enormous source of content on the web.
 
Heh. I have to confess, in addition to the iPad and the Air, I also carry an iPod touch with me pretty much everywhere, because when it comes to listening to music, neither the iPad nor the Air is as convenient as the small and pocketable iPod. An iMac on my desk completes my Apple collection. Apple sure knows how to get its customers to buy more stuff from them, I give you that!

But, how can you possibly get anything done, don't you know that 110% of the web is flash, and apple cripples your machine, and even cripples you -- you'll be less able to walk after using it, and OMG I NEED FLASH and everyone knows that all mission-critical sites use flash and only flash *frothing at the mouth*

;-)

regardless of what anyone wants to believe, Flash is on the way out. And Apple will be the one that killed it. That's how it works. When a dominant player doesn't adopt a technology (especially a technology that can be replaced easily by other tech), the tech dies. When companies stopped shipping computers with floppies / PS2 mice+keys / parallel ports, people didn't keep searching for other companies that made devices with these out-dated interfaces -- they adapted.

The same is happening here. Not "will happen" -- is happening. As I've mentioned several times, the BIG digital agencies are already re-allocating former Flash resources to App or HTML 5 development. No company wants to build a site and lose the iOS users. Just not going to happen. Once the big agencies stop doing Flash sites, the paradigm will shift. On the web, it's all about staying current and cool, and Flash just isn't anymore. Don't believe me? Go to a big agency and try and get a pitch for a Flash-based site.

There will always some use for Flash, for places that it's absolutely essential -- camera interaction being one HUGE area still. But the days of Flash being a pervasive technology on the web are coming to a close. Far quicker than most people realize.
 

And none of those explanations contradict anything that Jobs said outside of a difference of opinion. Could you quote one line from "Thoughts on Flash" that you can prove is a lie, as opposed to an opinion that you disagree with?
 
Well, last time I saw an Apple keynote, they told the public exactly that. That they love their customers and want to make them happy.

But I guess you know better, right?

Do you think this is a substantive point, that you've captured the essence of what BaldiMac and others have been saying, and that proving this statement wrong is somehow central to this conversation? I think your objection above is irrelevant in the face of the larger arguments people have made. Here, I've been patient enough to lay it out for you:

Will Apple ever have iOS compatible with Flash?
Nobody knows for sure, but it's doubtful.

What to make of Apple's decision to have iOS currently incompatible with Flash?
It is a reasonable position, even if one doesn't agree with it, and Apple has made their reasons clear. The argument that Apple doesn't allow Flash because it will cut into App profits isn't a very good argument, as explained in this thread several times. These explanations haven't been met with rebuttals so much as denials, so they stand.

Is it wrong for people to want Flash on iOS?
Not 'wrong', but a waste of energy. If you need a Flash-based device, they are available. If Flash is important enough to consumers, Apple will either lose out to competitors or they will decide to include Flash in future products. That said, there is sufficient reason to believe that Flash will not have such effects in the market, as its prominence is decreasing.

What are the consequences of Apple including Flash?
Producing more problems than not including it, again, as detailed in this thread. Even a Flash ON/OFF switch is impractical despite its superficial simplicity.
 
News is out that Opera and Chrome will not support h.264. So it seems that quite soon Apple will be the only one to offer the "full web".

I'd not want to look foolish the the chairman director when he asked me, perhaps in front of others to access a web site and I had to say sorry I can't access that one as my device can't show it.

If the CEO of my company asked me, in front of others, to access a web site, then I can guarantee that we would have made sure beforehand that it is a website that works on my device.
 
Last edited:
And none of those explanations contradict anything that Jobs said outside of a difference of opinion. Could you quote one line from "Thoughts on Flash" that you can prove is a lie, as opposed to an opinion that you disagree with?

Steve Jobs:"While Adobe’s Flash products are widely available, this does not mean they are open"
FACT: Adobe opened the SWF specification in 2008. You can create SWFs without Adobe products.

Steve Jobs: "Adobe has repeatedly said that Apple mobile devices cannot access 'the full web' because 75% of video on the web is in Flash. What they don’t say is that almost all this video is also available in a more modern format, H.264, and viewable on iPhones, iPods and iPads."
FACT: Adobe's right: 75% of video on the web is in Flash format.

Steve Jobs: "Most Flash websites will need to be rewritten to support touch-based devices."
FACT: FlashPlayer automatically converts mouse events to touch events.

I could go on and on, but why rehash the articles I already cited which you obviously haven't read?
 
Steve Jobs: "Adobe has repeatedly said that Apple mobile devices cannot access 'the full web' because 75% of video on the web is in Flash. What they don’t say is that almost all this video is also available in a more modern format, H.264, and viewable on iPhones, iPods and iPads."
FACT: Adobe's right: 75% of video on the web is in Flash format.

He never denied the 75% number. He just said that the majority of it is also available on h.264. These two things can coexist.

You understand that there's a difference between these two statements, right?:
1. 75% of the videos (content) on the web are available in Flash
2. 75% of the videos (files) are Flash

The second statement is just not true. Sorry. The first one is true, but it doesn't say anything about what other filetypes the content is available in.

Steve Jobs: "Most Flash websites will need to be rewritten to support touch-based devices."
FACT: FlashPlayer automatically converts mouse events to touch events.

I could go on and on, but why rehash the articles I already cited which you obviously haven't read?

Right click? Click-and-drag vs. just moving the pointer? I honestly don't know if they're supported. If they are, I'd be interested to see the algorithm used to determine which method of input to use. My hunch is that they're, in fact, not supported.
 
Steve Jobs: "Adobe has repeatedly said that Apple mobile devices cannot access 'the full web' because 75% of video on the web is in Flash. What they don’t say is that almost all this video is also available in a more modern format, H.264, and viewable on iPhones, iPods and iPads."
FACT: Adobe's right: 75% of video on the web is in Flash format.

Sorry, where did the letter say "75% of video on the web isn't in Flash format"?

So far, you're 1 for 3, and that one hinges on your definition of 'open'.

edit: beaten
 
Here is a game made in html 5, actually a remake: http://bowlerhatgames.com/html-games/gridshock/

My processor is at 80% on 2.93 core 2 duo and it barely works on the ipad

Here is a very similar game in flash: http://www.flashgames247.com/play/13688.html

My processor is at 15 %

Is this the land of milk and honey Steve has promised us?

Remember the Apple campaign Think? well.... Think!

I just tried that, as I'm always interested in real world.

10% - 50% on the 1st game, jumped wildly between those two amounts during clicking on the colours.


3% to 10% on the 2nd game

To be fair, I'd like to see exactly the same game ported between the to formats. These are the same game, but not if you know what I mean.

But, yeah, the 1st game used a lot more power 5x the power than the second one did.
 
Which touch gesture translates to "mouse hover"?

Which touch gesture equates to "mouse hover" in HTML5?

Listen up folks: touch/mouse problems are not an argument you can use against Flash.

HTML5 and Flash share the _exact_ same problems when web developers don't account for touchscreen users. Which is pretty much most developers.

In fact, HTML5 has a worse problem, in that most touch browsers translate a long screen press into a right-click context popup menu... like "Save this image" ,etc. So holding down an on-screen button to say, fire missiles, instead gets you a menu unless you take special precautions (if allowed).

(See my bio. I've been developing touchscreen apps for two decades, and HTML based mobile touchscreen apps for well over a decade.)
 
Which touch gesture translates to "mouse hover"?

This seems to be possible with tweaks to the physical screen.

Perhaps this will come in time from apple, being able to hover without pressing.

Ideally of course we will in time get proper pressure sensitivity as you to from a graphics tablet. :)
 
Which touch gesture equates to "mouse hover" in HTML5?

Listen up folks: touch/mouse problems are not an argument you can use against Flash.

HTML5 and Flash share the _exact_ same problems when web developers don't account for touchscreen users. Which is pretty much most developers.

In fact, HTML5 has a worse problem, in that most touch browsers translate a long screen press into a right-click context popup menu... like "Save this image" ,etc. So holding down an on-screen button to say, fire missiles, instead gets you a menu unless you take special precautions (if allowed).

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly don't plan on playing html5 games on my iPad. I have apps for that.

I was asking about mouse hover because many flash sites use mouse hover for menu navigation. Does html5 also use mouse hover that way? If so, that will certainly be a problem.


Ideally of course we will in time get proper pressure sensitivity as you to from a graphics tablet. :)

Nooooooo, I can't manage double tap and hold on the Macbook Air trackpad! I don't think I can manage differentiating between soft and hard taps -- it'd completely drive me bonkers!
 
Here is a game made in html 5, actually a remake: http://bowlerhatgames.com/html-games/gridshock/

My processor is at 80% on 2.93 core 2 duo and it barely works on the ipad

Here is a very similar game in flash: http://www.flashgames247.com/play/13688.html

My processor is at 15 %

Is this the land of milk and honey Steve has promised us?

Remember the Apple campaign Think? well.... Think!


Cool, thanks for the link. Unfortunately it works just fine on the iPad. I'll try it on the 2.66 iMac in a bit.
 
Last edited:
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.