***Sony Vaio Z*** Stone-cold killer! It's going to be Apple Vs Sony for Arrandale imo

[danlun76]

Why then are you concerned about the "insignificant minority".

I'm not, I'm just pointing out that as one of the few people unable to use version of Windows due to personal preferences your opinions aren't particularly important as far as making objective comparisons or recommendations go.

I'm by no means trying to make my own opinions out as anything special for that matter, just that by having no obvious bias on either the software or hardware end of things it's easier to make the above mentioned objective comparisons or recommendations and have them heard as well. *shrug*

It's used by about every monitor manufacturer out there.

Just not by the number one manufacturer, right? Samsung and LG are both conspicuously absent from the list.

It's certainly not used on any noticeable amount of products even by the manufacturers that do use it either, especially in the consumer segment. Indeed even the professional monitors I've been looking at seem to be very shy of DisplayPort.

A quick search on my local www.prisjakt.nu site turns up 26, out of 1257 available monitors in the TFT category, that uses DisplayPort. 24 of which are also equipped with DVI, 11 of which are under ~$400 and the only one that seems to be worth buying is the Dell 2310H.

Hardly a significant offering.

 

[CP123]

Way to twist words... I never was talking about monopolies but if you insist, Apple has a monopoly on the approval process of apps on the iphone but somehow they're getting away with it right now. Anyways, the point I was agreeing with you on was that Apple is burning bridges with other companies and developers can't be good in the long run.

I wish people would understand that monopoly has to do with lack of economic competition for the good or service that a company provides and a lack of viable subsitute goods. It has everything to do with marketshare. Apple doesn't have a monoply on the approval process, they have control of the approval process. Control and monopoly are two different things. Control of that process can lead to a monopoly if there is no other substitute good for apps. However, with the introductiion of Google's app store and others, those who don't like Apple's approval process have a viable alternative.

Hence, no monopoly.

 

[KnightWRX]

Just not by the number one manufacturer, right? Samsung and LG are both conspicuously absent from the list.

It's certainly not used on any noticeable amount of products even by the manufacturers that do use it either, especially in the consumer segment. Indeed even the professional monitors I've been looking at seem to be very shy of DisplayPort.

I'll take that as you backing out from your claim that only Apple used Displayport then.

The fact is, Displayport is nascent and is up and coming. Manufacturers are already implementing it in newer offerings.

I wish people would understand that monopoly has to do with lack of economic competition for the good or service that a company provides and a lack of viable subsitute goods. It has everything to do with marketshare. Apple doesn't have a monoply on the approval process, they have control of the approval process. Control and monopoly are two different things. Control of that process can lead to a monopoly if there is no other substitute good for apps. However, with the introductiion of Google's app store and others, those who don't like Apple's approval process have a viable alternative.

Hence, no monopoly.

At least someone here understands what a monopoly is.

 

[KrispyKreme]

From wikipedia:
"In economics, a monopoly exists when a specific individual or an enterprise has sufficient control over a particular product or service to determine significantly the terms on which other individuals shall have access to it..."

"In many jurisdictions, competition laws place specific restrictions on monopolies. Holding a dominant position or a monopoly in the market is not illegal in itself, however certain categories of behavior can, when a business is dominant, be considered abusive and therefore be met with legal sanctions."

"Competition law does not make merely having a monopoly illegal, but rather abusing the power a monopoly may confer, for instance through exclusionary practices."

By denying Adobe and Opera, et al access to the iPhone, they have a monopoly on the channels through which you can access the web through the iphone. How is this better than what Microsoft did? I mean, at least you were able to install Netscape or AOL or Opera on Windows machines. Anyways, please bring this discussion back on topic which was about comparing Sony laptops to Apple's.

 

[KrispyKreme]

Ok, I'll start. I like OSX but I don't like to buy outdated hardware and I don't like anti-competitive business practices. What laptop should I buy?

 

[danlun76]

I'll take that as you backing out from your claim that only Apple used Displayport then.

Thank you for that strawman argument.

"DisplayPort, on the other hand, is debatable on technical merits but pretty much a propriety Apple port as far as consumer devices go."

You're quite right about it being used by more than one manufacturer though. That said, alluding to it being a useful or widely distributed display connection would be like saying that Firewire is a hot commodity for consumer devices. Or any devices at this point I reckon. *shrug*

The fact is, Displayport is nascent and is up and coming. Manufacturers are already implementing it in newer offerings.

Maybe, maybe not. Excuse me if not holding my breath.

DisplayPort was introduced in 2006 so it's been 'up and coming' for a few years by now. Much like Firewire, which never really took off.

The problem with DisplayPort is that its technical merits over DVI and/or HDMI are few and far between while the utility is extremely limited. It's not a bad port to have, nothing is really, but it can't be used as an acceptable replacement for DVI, HDMI or even VGA.

This is the gist of my general criticism of the port itself, and a strike against the Macbook when it comes down to feature comparisons. I need a separate adapter for every single display I'd like to connect a Macbook to, whether it be a VGA projector, my HDMI TV or my DVI computer monitor.

It's not just an inconvenience either, it's downright expensive.

DisplayPort may or may not be hot in a few years, I'm inclined to think 'not' but that's merely a personal opinion, but until that happens I require connectivity that's actually useful.

 

[CP123]

From wikipedia:
"In economics, a monopoly exists when a specific individual or an enterprise has sufficient control over a particular product or service to determine significantly the terms on which other individuals shall have access to it..."

"In many jurisdictions, competition laws place specific restrictions on monopolies. Holding a dominant position or a monopoly in the market is not illegal in itself, however certain categories of behavior can, when a business is dominant, be considered abusive and therefore be met with legal sanctions."

"Competition law does not make merely having a monopoly illegal, but rather abusing the power a monopoly may confer, for instance through exclusionary practices."

By denying Adobe and Opera, et al access to the iPhone, they have a monopoly on the channels through which you can access the web through the iphone. How is this better than what Microsoft did? I mean, at least you were able to install Netscape or AOL or Opera on Windows machines. Anyways, please bring this discussion back on topic which was about comparing Sony laptops to Apple's.

Your argument is flawed. When you talk about monopoly and a particular product that is when you have a single product monopoly, and there is no other provider of a like product. Well in the case of the iPhone and apps being approved there are other phones where developers can put their apps, such as the android phones. The competition to get the best apps will either make Apple change or lose some good apps to the android market. Hence, no monopoly because of viable competition.

Another way to have a monopoly is by being so dominant that some of your practices can be considered abusive. We can all agree that Apple is not the dominant force in computers or smartphones. Hence no monopoly because Apple does bit have the dominant share of the smartphone market.

A company is allowed to decide what they put in their product. If Ford wants to use a certain windshield wiper exclusively, it doesn't mean they are a monopoly.



Look at your point dealing with "holding a dominant position".

 

[KrispyKreme]

Your argument is flawed. When you talk about monopoly and a particular product that is when you have a single product monopoly, and there is no other provider of a like product. Well in the case of the iPhone and apps being approved there are other phones where developers can put their apps, such as the android phones... If Ford wants to use a certain windshield wiper exclusively, it doesn't mean they are a monopoly.

When MS was hit with anti-trust lawsuits, were there not alternative OSes from Apple and Linux? Your argument with Ford is flawed. A proper analogy would be to say that Ford prevents you from buying non-Ford wiper blades after you buy your Ford.

 

[KnightWRX]

When MS was hit with anti-trust lawsuits, were there not alternative OSes from Apple and Linux?

Those were not comparable and competitive offerings, thanks to Microsoft's anti-competitive tactics preventing interoperability and their constant pushing of their proprietary technology to make sure their non-documented specs were what was used on the market.

The iPhone however doesn't lock you in and you can always go with any other similar offerings on the market.

Plus, the iPhone isn't even the top in market share, so essentially, it's hard to claim Apple has any kind of control or monopoly over the smartphone market.

 

[KrispyKreme]

The iPhone however doesn't lock you in and you can always go with any other similar offerings on the market.

Sure, similar offerings such as performing a jailbreak? Or do you mean you can buy Android phones like you could buy a Linux or MacOS computers when MS was hit with those lawsuits?

anti-competitive tactics preventing interoperability and their constant pushing of their proprietary technology to make sure their non-documented specs were what was used on the market.

What about documentation about the ipod connector so we can buy 3rd party accessories like keyboards, barcode readers, card readers, etc.?

 

[Bumble Bee]

I do not like viruses and malware so Ill stick with apple thanks

 

[solarein]

You know, the VGA port really doesn't bother me. I don't think it is very important at all as an aesthetic element. There are far more important elements of design that one would notice before noticing that VGA port.

But anyone who goes around doing presentations and talks knows just how ubiquitous VGA projectors still are. It's so simple that this argument is pretty pointless. I can speak with near certainty that anyone who thinks VGA ports are silly and don't belong on modern devices don't go around doing presentations. And anyone who does do presentations and talks will appreciate the inclusion of a VGA port. It's just that simple. Sure, you can connect MBPs to VGA projectors with an adapter. But when I was running a seminar series, more than once it happens that the speaker comes with a MacBook/Pro and doesn't have the adapter to connect to the VGA projector in the room we are using, and we have to scramble to find someone with the right adapter for that MacBook/Pro. Not having a VGA port is just trouble for anyone who does presentations: it costs money to buy, adds weight to carry around, and there's always a risk you might forget it. Having a VGA port is simplicity and peace of mind.

 

[wschutz]

I do not like viruses and malware so Ill stick with apple thanks

Lol Do you know what is the meaning of software... right?

 

[CP123]

When MS was hit with anti-trust lawsuits, were there not alternative OSes from Apple and Linux? Your argument with Ford is flawed. A proper analogy would be to say that Ford prevents you from buying non-Ford wiper blades after you buy your Ford.

The issue central to Microsoft's monopoly case was whether MS was allowed to bundle Internet Explorer (IE) with Windows. Bundling them together is alleged to have been responsible for Microsoft's victory in the browser wars as every Windows user had a copy of IE. It was further alleged that this unfairly restricted the market for competing web browsers (such as Netscape Navigator or Opera) that were slow to download over a modem or had to be purchased at a store. Underlying these disputes were questions over whether Microsoft altered or manipulated its application programming interfaces to favor IE over third party web browsers.

The fact that there were other web browsers is irrelevant. Since most PCs came with Windows, MS' use of its dominance allowed it to affect other companies who offered web browsers. If someone wants Flash or Adobe or whatever on Apple, there are other choices. Some in this thread would argue better choices.

 

[ravenvii]

There's a zillion + 1 Microsoft/Windows vs. Apple/Mac OS X threads, and they go down the same route, just rephrased. Why don't you guys save yourselves time (and ourselves too) by just doing a search, finding a MSFT vs. AAPL thread, and read it and imagine you're fighting it out with each other?

And in the meanwhile, I'll say what a nice-looking that VAIO is, and yes Apple needs to hurry up and released the updated MacBook Pro's, because they're about a month late to the party.

 

[CP123]

There's a zillion + 1 Microsoft/Windows vs. Apple/Mac OS X threads, and they go down the same route, just rephrased. Why don't you guys save yourselves time (and ourselves too) by just doing a search, finding a MSFT vs. AAPL thread, and read it and imagine you're fighting it out with each other?

And in the meanwhile, I'll say what a nice-looking that VAIO is, and yes Apple needs to hurry up and released the updated MacBook Pro's, because they're about a month late to the party.

And there's a zillion +1 Apple better hurry up with its update or ..., or This PC (fill in HP, Sony, etc.) has way better specs than the MBP ... threads that go down the same route, just rephrased. So why don't you do a search, and save yourself (and us) from reading your post about how Apple has to hurry up with their update.

 

[Cricketman]

Why? What does a "UNIX system" allow you to do that Windows does not, unless you're a terminal addict?

Seriously, what can you not do?

It's not programming.

It's not content creation, like music, video etc (video is now better on Windows actually)

It's not actually watching videos or listening to music, as generally that stuff is way better on Windows, unless you like iTunes, which I grudgingly use at this point, and only for my phone. Terrible software.

So what are you doing on "UNIX systems" that is special to that platform for home use?

I dual boot as well, and Windows 7 64 is faster on my machine than OSX. It's actually kind of embarrassing.

Exactly. Some of the windows bashing on here simply doesn't make sense.

There is nothing a Mac can do that a PC can't. There are lots of things a PC can do that a Mac can't.

Now let me be clear - I am a current Win7 User (Sony Vaio FW235J) BUT I really enjoy working on Macs. I am looking at purchasing an MBP this summer.

Windows 7 is not that bad. People need to get out and use something that isn't like, Windows ME.

Anyways on topic as I hate being 'that guy' that instigates a flame war (although this is something i have noticed for the 3+ years i have been browsing here). That Sony looks immense, a bit pricey for me though. and I would take added space and a lower cost over the SSDs. Sony makes quality products. I do have a slight issue with build quality though. On my FW the barrels near the power button and the power input are loose, the input one has actually snapped off. Battery life kind of sucks (but it is powering a full HD 16.4 in screen) and portability is almost impossible outside of the house.

Still love it though. Bought it last year and hope to get another year or two out of it

 

[applesupergeek]

This thread should be locked at some point now guys shouldn't it? That's bad moderating to keep allowing black marketing threads in a mac forum. I don't see anyone touting apple products in sonny forums? Why do we have to suffer through them here? If I wanted to read about sonny's new vga port enabled portable I would have been in their forums not here. I am sure a lot of people share this sentiment.

Or for crying out loud just make an "other manufacturers" sub forum and let the food fighting take place over there. I don't see what the point of a thread along the lines of "see how X manufacturer has a better product than apple" is. Will it ever add up to anything constructive? It's just a festering ground for constant apple bashing...

And according to forum rules, why should a sonny vaio, sorry, "**** Sony Vaio ****" thread merit its inclusion in the sub forum for macbook pros and powerbooks?

 

[CP123]

Exactly. Some of the windows bashing on here simply doesn't make sense.

There is nothing a Mac can do that a PC can't. There are lots of things a PC can do that a Mac can't.

Now let me be clear - I am a current Win7 User (Sony Vaio FW235J) BUT I really enjoy working on Macs. I am looking at purchasing an MBP this summer.

Windows 7 is not that bad. People need to get out and use something that isn't like, Windows ME.

Anyways on topic as I hate being 'that guy' that instigates a flame war (although this is something i have noticed for the 3+ years i have been browsing here). That Sony looks immense, a bit pricey for me though. and I would take added space and a lower cost over the SSDs. Sony makes quality products. I do have a slight issue with build quality though. On my FW the barrels near the power button and the power input are loose, the input one has actually snapped off. Battery life kind of sucks (but it is powering a full HD 16.4 in screen) and portability is almost impossible outside of the house.

Still love it though. Bought it last year and hope to get another year or two out of it

I hear ya, and there's nothing wrong with your preference. That's all I have been saying. People have a right to their preference. BTW, there is one thing a Mac can do that a PC doesn't do (not can't), and that is run OSX and the software that goes with it. A lot of people including myself prefer OSX over Windows. Not to mention I think Macs look better. There are some nice looking Windows-based PCs though.

This thread should be locked at some point now guys shouldn't it? That's bad moderating to keep allowing black marketing threads in a mac forum. I don't see anyone touting apple products in sonny forums? Why do we have to suffer through them here? If I wanted to read about sonny's new vga port enabled portable I would have been in their forums not here. I am sure a lot of people share this sentiment.

Or for crying out loud just make an "other manufacturers" sub forum and let the food fighting take place over there. I don't see what the point of a thread along the lines of "see how X manufacturer has a better product than apple" is. Will it ever add up to anything constructive? It's just a festering ground for constant apple bashing...

Agreed. Why not make a new section for Windows-based PCs that these threads can be put in. That way, people who are considering Windows-based PCs can go there.

 

[applesupergeek]

Agreed. Why not make a new section for Windows-based PCs that these threads can put in. That way, people who are considering Windows-based PCs can go there.

Simple as that, no more drama, no one can whine then because they 'll have their own section made for debating the relative merits of pcs (whatever these might be...) and they will not be imposing on other sub forums with completely unrelated focus.

 

[Eidorian]

There is already an appropriate forum to discuss the forums themselves. Take it there instead of attempting to discussing it here.

 

[applesupergeek]

There is already an appropriate forum to discuss the forums themselves. Take it there instead of attempting to discussing it here.

I am not discussing anything I am stating my opinion based on the impetus for it, which is here, in this thread. That said, this is as much relative imo to the discussion as much as a discussion on a sony vaio is relative to a macbook pro forum.

As for the site and forum feedback sub forum, I am sorry to say it but it doesn't work for me, too few people visit and you can never gain enough traction for an issue. It's mostly older members with a very high opinion of, well, their opinion.

Any decent forum has to let some important issues be discussed site wide not stashed away in a place that vast majority don't visit and can't opine on.

 

[solarein]

For me, and I think for many others, the new Vaio Z is sort of special in the sense that it has the specs that we would like to see in the (13") MBP refresh. Threads like this are as much about Apple (if not more) as they are about Sony. It provides a common ground where we can discuss what kind of specs we would like to see in upcoming MBPs. Prior to the new Vaio Z, I think many people wouldn't have thought it was realistic to put Core i7, GeForce GT 330M, and an optical drive in a 13" formfactor. So the fact that this machine exists allows us to speculate about future MBPs more realistically.

Simply put, this thread is not just for people considering the Vaio Z. They may not even be the majority of the people who read this thread. It's also for people who are waiting for new MBPs.

 

[ravenvii]

And there's a zillion +1 Apple better hurry up with its update or ..., or This PC (fill in HP, Sony, etc.) has way better specs than the MBP ... threads that go down the same route, just rephrased. So why don't you do a search, and save yourself (and us) from reading your post about how Apple has to hurry up with their update.

Have you even read the post and the beginning of the thread? Because...

For me, and I think for many others, the new Vaio Z is sort of special in the sense that it has the specs that we would like to see in the (13") MBP refresh. Threads like this are as much about Apple (if not more) as they are about Sony. It provides a common ground where we can discuss what kind of specs we would like to see in upcoming MBPs. Prior to the new Vaio Z, I think many people wouldn't have thought it was realistic to put Core i7, GeForce GT 330M, and an optical drive in a 13" formfactor. So the fact that this machine exists allows us to speculate about future MBPs more realistically.

Simply put, this thread is not just for people considering the Vaio Z. They may not even be the majority of the people who read this thread. It's also for people who are waiting for new MBPs.

... This.

 

[CP123]

For me, and I think for many others, the new Vaio Z is sort of special in the sense that it has the specs that we would like to see in the (13") MBP refresh. Threads like this are as much about Apple (if not more) as they are about Sony. It provides a common ground where we can discuss what kind of specs we would like to see in upcoming MBPs. Prior to the new Vaio Z, I think many people wouldn't have thought it was realistic to put Core i7, GeForce GT 330M, and an optical drive in a 13" formfactor. So the fact that this machine exists allows us to speculate about future MBPs more realistically.

Simply put, this thread is not just for people considering the Vaio Z. They may not even be the majority of the people who read this thread. It's also for people who are waiting for new MBPs.

That's true for some, and probably true for you. However, there is a certain group who use these threads to say how great Windows-based PCs are, and that Windows-based PCs own Apple, and there are things Windows 7 can do that OSX can't etc. This type of thread would best be served in its own sub-topic, that way everyone who wants to read about the virtues of Windows, can go so and do it.