I have two stores I prefer and I check there first.
I can also “Google it” and can frequently find it that way.
Heck, most of the time I “GI” to find a list of apps in the App Store.
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South Korea Passes Bill Banning Apple From Requiring Developers to Use App Store In-App Purchase System
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I have two stores I prefer and I check there first.
I can also “Google it” and can frequently find it that way.
Heck, most of the time I “GI” to find a list of apps in the App Store.
This is awesome ! The first item alone could cost the developer a fortune to administer yourself. Where did you get this list ?
LOL @ all the Apple fans in this comments thread trying to defend Apple's monopolistic business behavior.
Apple knew the 30% App Store commission was egregious when they started it. Apple's own exec emails with Jobs (that came out in the Epic trial) had them stating they knew it wouldn't last forever (referring to eventual competition) and having to lower the commission. They also mentioned lowering it when profits from the App Store hit $1 Billion. None of those things ever happened because Apple started making a fortune from the App Store and decided to do everything to protect it.
It's probably not a coincidence that Apple made the decisions somewhere along the way to NOT report specific App Store revenues & expenses in their public filings. It was most likely strategic to keep from being scrutinized.
The reality is no one expected Mobile Phones to end up being such an important part of society, nor the fact that a powerful Duopoly would be created to control that industry with Apple & Google. They've been able to keep out any reasonable competitive threat to that outrageous 30% commission.
I'm a Developer and see things how they really are from a business perspective, unlike most consumers. The 30% commission often ends up far exceeding over HALF of a Developer's net profit. Sometimes more than 75% depending on how much has been invested in advertising. That's INSANITY. No other industry has such high marketplace margins as the app stores have. Not any retail store or wholesale sales network, not any other service industry, NONE. P.S. App Store 'Discovery' SUCKS - it's very hard for an App Developer in the App Store to get many free downloads for new apps anymore; so developers have to buy advertising which eats into our profits (if any).
NONE of Apple's arguments, which many fanboys are trying to use, excuse Apple from their ridiculous 30% cut...
"But the 30% covers more than just credit card processing fees." True, but the incremental costs to run the App Store don't cost BILLIONS of dollars. The incremental costs based on more Apps being added to the network are a tiny fraction of the margin of that 30%.
The vast majority of the App Store is subsidized by the gaming industry and the free-to-play games model. Apple had no idea this would happen. F2P games are probably 90% of all the App Store revenue that Apple collects. As pointed out in the Epic trial, games are subsidizing the free Wells Fargo banking app. This makes no fair marketplace sense for the gaming companies and those driving large IAP revenues.
"BUT... BUT... BUT... Apple protects us against FRAUD and that's why they don't allow Apps to offer other payment processing options."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Oh yeah? You mean that fraud that you as a consumer are 100% not liable for if it happens? The ones the credit card companies have to legally take care of for you? There's a reason there's a chargeback process for every online credit card account.
The "fraud" argument about giving 3rd party processors your credit card info doesn't fly anyway... why? THE WEB BROWSER. Safari that's built-in to every iPhone as well as Chrome or others that can be installed. MILLIONS of people everyday use Safari or another web browser on their iPhone to make Ecommerce purchases across the entire Web on their iPhones. People buy from the Amazon App all the time. NONE of those payment processors have anything to do with Apple and them 'protecting' and controlling the process.
"BUT... BUT... BUT... SECURITY!"
LOL. That's merely another excuse Apple came up with to protect the billions in App Store profits. Apple controls iOS. Just like they do now, they can easily patch any vulnerabilities. The same can be done even if there were side-loading or other app stores. But as many have already stated, if you don't want those risks then you don't have to install apps from other app stores.
Apple is going to get HAMMERED all over the world to change their policies and the way they run the App Store. South Korea is just the beginning. Wait until the EU gets done with the Spotify case. Laws in the USA will eventually change as well... like the law already proposed in Arizona and other states. And the recent bipartisan bills in Congress to force Apple to allow owners of their iPhones to have more control over their option to use other app stores as well as App Store apps being able to offer other payment options.
"Apple can just change their Terms of Service where you can't offer a lower price elsewhere."
Nope, they can't. That's against antitrust law.
"Apple will just raise the developer fees per year really high, or find another way to make up that same revenue."
Nope, they won't. Most developers don't make any money as it is.
"BUT... Apple deserves to make money, it's their App Store... they created the iPhone!"
***YES, I AGREE!***
Apple absolutely deserves to make money from the App Store, and well beyond just credit card processing fees. They deserve to make LOTS of money. Even billions. But not with a 30% cut. That's outrageous and has currently only stayed in place due to lack of competition and other open market forces.
In my opinion, Apple deserves to make about 10-12% commission. They'd still be making many billions in App Store profit. Their 'cost' on CC processing would be about 2%, leaving plenty leftover towards their actual expenses, which would result in still making billions in profit.
Around a 10-12% commission is more than fair for all parties involved. From the Developer side, we'd probably lose 10%+ of Net Revenue on CONVERSION RATES alone if giving a user the option to pay for IAPs outside of Apple's seamless payment options. i.e. around 10% more revenue would occur if offering Apple's easy built-in payment system compared to only offering payment options outside of that system -- which is why Apple really has nothing to fear by allowing App Developers the option to use a 3rd party payment processor. Even these big game companies, once they run split-tests, will most likely find they net more by just using Apple's built-in payment process. (Less friction for the user.)
But Apple can't just 'control' their App Store monopoly/duopoly anymore. The industry has evolved. They can't strong arm companies like Spotify to favor their own Music app, nor give better treatment to some App Developers (Netflix) over others.
These latest laws ARE, ultimately, good for consumers. More competition, more options, and more profit for Developers will only result in better Apps, more App choice, and better App QUALITY and innovation for users.
Apple knew the 30% App Store commission was egregious when they started it. Apple's own exec emails with Jobs (that came out in the Epic trial) had them stating they knew it wouldn't last forever (referring to eventual competition) and having to lower the commission. They also mentioned lowering it when profits from the App Store hit $1 Billion. None of those things ever happened because Apple started making a fortune from the App Store and decided to do everything to protect it.
It's probably not a coincidence that Apple made the decisions somewhere along the way to NOT report specific App Store revenues & expenses in their public filings. It was most likely strategic to keep from being scrutinized.
The reality is no one expected Mobile Phones to end up being such an important part of society, nor the fact that a powerful Duopoly would be created to control that industry with Apple & Google. They've been able to keep out any reasonable competitive threat to that outrageous 30% commission.
I'm a Developer and see things how they really are from a business perspective, unlike most consumers. The 30% commission often ends up far exceeding over HALF of a Developer's net profit. Sometimes more than 75% depending on how much has been invested in advertising. That's INSANITY. No other industry has such high marketplace margins as the app stores have. Not any retail store or wholesale sales network, not any other service industry, NONE. P.S. App Store 'Discovery' SUCKS - it's very hard for an App Developer in the App Store to get many free downloads for new apps anymore; so developers have to buy advertising which eats into our profits (if any).
NONE of Apple's arguments, which many fanboys are trying to use, excuse Apple from their ridiculous 30% cut...
"But the 30% covers more than just credit card processing fees." True, but the incremental costs to run the App Store don't cost BILLIONS of dollars. The incremental costs based on more Apps being added to the network are a tiny fraction of the margin of that 30%.
The vast majority of the App Store is subsidized by the gaming industry and the free-to-play games model. Apple had no idea this would happen. F2P games are probably 90% of all the App Store revenue that Apple collects. As pointed out in the Epic trial, games are subsidizing the free Wells Fargo banking app. This makes no fair marketplace sense for the gaming companies and those driving large IAP revenues.
"BUT... BUT... BUT... Apple protects us against FRAUD and that's why they don't allow Apps to offer other payment processing options."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Oh yeah? You mean that fraud that you as a consumer are 100% not liable for if it happens? The ones the credit card companies have to legally take care of for you? There's a reason there's a chargeback process for every online credit card account.
The "fraud" argument about giving 3rd party processors your credit card info doesn't fly anyway... why? THE WEB BROWSER. Safari that's built-in to every iPhone as well as Chrome or others that can be installed. MILLIONS of people everyday use Safari or another web browser on their iPhone to make Ecommerce purchases across the entire Web on their iPhones. People buy from the Amazon App all the time. NONE of those payment processors have anything to do with Apple and them 'protecting' and controlling the process.
"BUT... BUT... BUT... SECURITY!"
LOL. That's merely another excuse Apple came up with to protect the billions in App Store profits. Apple controls iOS. Just like they do now, they can easily patch any vulnerabilities. The same can be done even if there were side-loading or other app stores. But as many have already stated, if you don't want those risks then you don't have to install apps from other app stores.
Apple is going to get HAMMERED all over the world to change their policies and the way they run the App Store. South Korea is just the beginning. Wait until the EU gets done with the Spotify case. Laws in the USA will eventually change as well... like the law already proposed in Arizona and other states. And the recent bipartisan bills in Congress to force Apple to allow owners of their iPhones to have more control over their option to use other app stores as well as App Store apps being able to offer other payment options.
"Apple can just change their Terms of Service where you can't offer a lower price elsewhere."
Nope, they can't. That's against antitrust law.
"Apple will just raise the developer fees per year really high, or find another way to make up that same revenue."
Nope, they won't. Most developers don't make any money as it is.
"BUT... Apple deserves to make money, it's their App Store... they created the iPhone!"
***YES, I AGREE!***
Apple absolutely deserves to make money from the App Store, and well beyond just credit card processing fees. They deserve to make LOTS of money. Even billions. But not with a 30% cut. That's outrageous and has currently only stayed in place due to lack of competition and other open market forces.
In my opinion, Apple deserves to make about 10-12% commission. They'd still be making many billions in App Store profit. Their 'cost' on CC processing would be about 2%, leaving plenty leftover towards their actual expenses, which would result in still making billions in profit.
Around a 10-12% commission is more than fair for all parties involved. From the Developer side, we'd probably lose 10%+ of Net Revenue on CONVERSION RATES alone if giving a user the option to pay for IAPs outside of Apple's seamless payment options. i.e. around 10% more revenue would occur if offering Apple's easy built-in payment system compared to only offering payment options outside of that system -- which is why Apple really has nothing to fear by allowing App Developers the option to use a 3rd party payment processor. Even these big game companies, once they run split-tests, will most likely find they net more by just using Apple's built-in payment process. (Less friction for the user.)
But Apple can't just 'control' their App Store monopoly/duopoly anymore. The industry has evolved. They can't strong arm companies like Spotify to favor their own Music app, nor give better treatment to some App Developers (Netflix) over others.
These latest laws ARE, ultimately, good for consumers. More competition, more options, and more profit for Developers will only result in better Apps, more App choice, and better App QUALITY and innovation for users.
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Nope. Services like Avalara & Quaderno offer this global tax reporting/filing/paying service for companies and handles it all for them for a reasonable fee. Starting as low as $49/month.
100% correct. Decrease the tax enough (I predict 10-12% commission is where things will end up) until it's well worth it for the Developer to go with Apple and pay their commission as compared to lower conversion rates as well as hassles involved with using an outside payment processor.
Developers screwed themselves and each other in the race to the bottom. Maybe if Apple charged less for proper paid apps and discouraged in app purchases for stuff like In game currency then we could have proper worthwhile apps
I like it.
Though a 12% cut isn't too far from the 15% cut for smaller developers (that's most developers, right?)
And I'm sure the billion-dollar developers (Epic, Netflix, Spotify) would still complain even if the cut was 10%
But this would be a nice first step!
You're dead wrong. If you want to sell a product in Costco, they send an audit team to your factory and assess the cost of manufacturing your product. Then, they tell you what you can sell it for at their store, which is based off their figure of 15% margin for you. They pick up the product from the factory and deliver to it their containers on their ships that get unloaded at ports in America and loaded onto their trucks that get delivered to their stores.
THEY LITERALLY LIMIT YOUR PROFIT TO 15%.
If this S.K. legislation ever arrived here, I would bet that your costs would skyrocket when Apple starts nickel-and-diming you for every service they've given you for $99/year or you start hosting on AWS and they start nickel-and-diming you.
Or I could simply avoid paying 99 dollar annual fee, get xCode and publish app elsewhere.
Again, Apple can increase annual membership fee all they want until to the point it is too expensive for developer.
I highly doubt developer publishing app via Cydia paying Apple anything.
If Apple start to charging developer way to much money, how many App developer will actually developing for iOS?
Or Apple can eat their pride and acknowledging the reality.
It’s like complaining about being made to pay for additional in-game content after already paying for a video game.
That $99 a year doesn’t come anywhere close to covering the costs of running the App Store, and Apple charged that amount expecting to earn the rest back via other means (ie: 30%).
Take away with the 30% commission, you are left with a loss leader, and of course Apple will be thinking (or already have thought of) alternative ways to make up for the shortfall.
Apple is definitely not going to just take this lying down; the only question will be how they choose to respond.
Do you have any figure about cost of running App Store. Apple is making billions upon billions of dollars from App Store. If Apple's objective is profit of developer's hard earned money, then by all means charge more for developer and let's see how developer will response.
If Apple think App Store is gate way for Apple's entire ecosystem and then Apple can and is able to eat the cost. It is like how Amazon is basically giving Kindle fire table away, because they know they can profit more from other sales. Same logic can apply to App Store.
Apple really should give up this fight and it is becoming harder for Apple, Google to fight the trend. It is good opportunity for Apple making some good PR move where turn this into their favour, by removing 30% cut. Apple is and can afford all these.
I'm... Apple pay would be a great solution without the price gouging for being a credit card processor. App sales in the app store is one thing but the rest is trash and greed for all.
We pay more because of the apple tax charged to developers.
Google does this with their store. It hasn't helped remove scrutiny from them and they Allow third-party app stores and sideloading.
What monopolistic business practices? That's only an opinion.
Wasn't the 30% then egregious for every physical and digital store offering those rates.
The same way they stopped reporting iphone unit sales, I guess.
It's only a duopoly because the two main players offered a product people wanted to buy. Didn't seem like windows would be the hit that MS thought it was and linux is a bit player. There is no governmental barrier toward anyone offering up a new product.
This isn't a true conjecture.
The above diminishes some of your overall points when one has to resort to some generalized ad-homs.
Apple is entitled to make what it can get. Signing up to be in the dev program is strictly voluntary and a dev knows that up front.
How so?
Seems like a bunch of hyperbole. Do you think things would be better with alternative app stores and sideloading. I don't.
Maybe or maybe not. Government hates success and wants to play robin hood, is my take on this. The ios app store is Apples' invention, Apple innovation and fully opt-in.
Again the 30% cut seems to be a standard in physical and digital stores.
Maybe the government should limit what us citizens make as a salary? It's not like Apple has raised their rates since 2008.
Who is the arbiter of what is fair? Sure the government can regulate it, but imo, that is micro-regulation -- of which I am against.
So because of the app store existence, some found something to complain about, the entire infrastructure should be disabled. I don't think so.
No they aren't. They are worse for devs and worse for consumers. It will be a race to the bottom for quality apps, loss of security plus more.
Signed an ex-dev.
I made a post some time back explaining my thoughts on this matter.
Post in thread 'Minnesota and Arizona Bills Aim to Let Developers Skirt Apple's In-App Purchase Rules' https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...s-in-app-purchase-rules.2286379/post-29644575
You can check it out and let me know what you think of my earlier response.
Note that a lot of it is guesswork, but the TL;DR is that Apple needs to charge 20% for the App Store to break even, because so many developers do not charge for their apps.
I don’t know if this would make people more sympathetic towards Apple, but yeah, that’s what I have come up with.
Does your analysis include in-app purchases? That seems to be the desired design these days.
The optics on this are horrendous.
Really, the most egregious stuff is in the documents that dropped out of Google last week.
I’m talking about how Google was secretly paying US telecom’s to not create their own app stores.
That is breaking the trust of consumers. Because those deals were secret and the android platform ostensibly welcomes competing app stores with open arms.
Apple’s situation is wholly different from Android, however I am stunned by how poorly the company has handled its relationship with developers.
I built the first Baby Names app for the iPhone. Literally, the first. I had a concert posters app, Rock Show, that was among the first 1000 iPad apps at the debut of the iPad App Store.
I ran the first app that let you send Bitcoin in the App Store, Gliph and wrote a well-covered blog entry on how Google and Android were patrolling this space back in 2015.
All along the way there has been an adversarial relationship between developers and Apple.
It wasn’t even about the 30% back in the day. It was about how unbelievably ****** iTunes connect was as a publishing workflow, how slow and opaque the review process was, and how dangerous it was to “run to the press” (Apple’s words) if Apple removed your app from the store.
Apple has done a hell of a lot to improve things, but some of the stuff smells like rotten eggs.
- why did it take so long to offer Spotify as the default music player in iOS? I don’t even use Spotify, but ffs this stank of insecurity and favoritism toward Apple Music.
- why didn’t Apple make a deal to cover Netflix and other media streaming subscriptions that made them comfortable with the Apple payment system?
- why did it take so long for apple to lower fees for devs making under a million a year? What kind of hubris managed to run good will down so far and so long to finally make that change under pressure?
There are a lot of great things Apple has done for developers. However, none of that matters when the company has so badly blown these major opportunities to not only act as a benevolent dictator, but preserve the company’s optics as a benevolent dictator.
One more thing—that S. Korea as able to lump Apple in with Google in establishing this law says something very wrong has gone at a strategic level.
At this point, if Apple was unable to educate the public and officials how different it is from Google, then Apple should have thrown in the towel and made many good concessions a long, long time ago.
Really, the most egregious stuff is in the documents that dropped out of Google last week.
I’m talking about how Google was secretly paying US telecom’s to not create their own app stores.
That is breaking the trust of consumers. Because those deals were secret and the android platform ostensibly welcomes competing app stores with open arms.
Apple’s situation is wholly different from Android, however I am stunned by how poorly the company has handled its relationship with developers.
I built the first Baby Names app for the iPhone. Literally, the first. I had a concert posters app, Rock Show, that was among the first 1000 iPad apps at the debut of the iPad App Store.
I ran the first app that let you send Bitcoin in the App Store, Gliph and wrote a well-covered blog entry on how Google and Android were patrolling this space back in 2015.
All along the way there has been an adversarial relationship between developers and Apple.
It wasn’t even about the 30% back in the day. It was about how unbelievably ****** iTunes connect was as a publishing workflow, how slow and opaque the review process was, and how dangerous it was to “run to the press” (Apple’s words) if Apple removed your app from the store.
Apple has done a hell of a lot to improve things, but some of the stuff smells like rotten eggs.
- why did it take so long to offer Spotify as the default music player in iOS? I don’t even use Spotify, but ffs this stank of insecurity and favoritism toward Apple Music.
- why didn’t Apple make a deal to cover Netflix and other media streaming subscriptions that made them comfortable with the Apple payment system?
- why did it take so long for apple to lower fees for devs making under a million a year? What kind of hubris managed to run good will down so far and so long to finally make that change under pressure?
There are a lot of great things Apple has done for developers. However, none of that matters when the company has so badly blown these major opportunities to not only act as a benevolent dictator, but preserve the company’s optics as a benevolent dictator.
One more thing—that S. Korea as able to lump Apple in with Google in establishing this law says something very wrong has gone at a strategic level.
At this point, if Apple was unable to educate the public and officials how different it is from Google, then Apple should have thrown in the towel and made many good concessions a long, long time ago.
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No they don't think they won a free ride.
Why should the developer do charity?
Why do every free app has a tons of advertisement? Because of the developer fee. Why should developers do charity? (Or the second main reason is that users are greedy and don't want to pay 1$ for an app they use regularly)
So in those stories, why should everyone do charity, but Apple has the right to extract as many $ from everyone else's pocket? Are they special in any way? Are they a saint? Are they sacred? Who should no law apply to them?
Good idea! More advertisement in free apps!
Who loose? The customers... Unless the customer likes ads...
It’s coming, it’s coming, the freedom is near…
www.imore.com
EU and U.S. discuss 'mutual interest' in antitrust legislation, digital market cases
U.S. Associate Attorney General Vanita Gupta has spoken with EU Commission's competition chief Margrethe Vestager about their mutual interest "in promoting competition in a fair, global marketplace an
www.imore.com