Star Wars: The Last Jedi Discussion (WARNING: SPOILERS EVERYWHERE)

[smallcoffee]

Some of these complaints are valid, but i still contend we could go back to Empire Strikes Back and be like "Why go to Bespin?". Why was everyone hanging out on Hoth? Why didn't the Empire just airstrike the rebel base? How did Luke land in that exact right place on Dagobah?

Sorry, I don't buy it. The level of scrutiny on this movie is stupid. And don't even get me started with the script. The Episode IV script was horrible.

I literally read a complaint where someone said "I thought I was watching Flash Gordon for a second". Uh...Star Wars was meant to be like Flash Gordon.

No way. I think you're forgetting ESB plot line. It made sense. People might complain about some things like, maybe Luke getting stuffed in that meat bag to "keep warm", but you wouldn't find a laundry list of complaints like you do now.
[doublepost=1513781986][/doublepost]

Yeah so now they have to explain how she dies in Ep9. Rian has written the trilogy into a corner.

Yeah. They should have just killed her there, or had her pilot the ship back through the enemy fleet.

It would have maybe been cool if they had kept jumping from system to system like in Battle Star Galactica. Just "staying out of laser cannon range" was very meh.

 

[decafjava]

Now unwatching this thread.

 

[kingalexthe1st]

Something that has been bugging me is just WHY I am annoyed that Snoke died without any back story, when the same could be said about the Emperor.

My thought is that we are introduced in the OT to an Empire that is already established and ruling the galaxy (with no backstory), so I expected an established character.
The First Order has a hole in its history to fill, between ROTJ and TFA. And that history involves Snoke, which is why I crave answers for him and not the emperor.

Any thoughts?

 

[Huntn]

Just want to answer some of things that I think. I mostly have the same questions as you though.



The idea of this is that Rey's actions convinced Luke to change his mind. Poorly executed, though.



Everything Rey and Kylo saw in their future was made up by Snoke, seeing as he was the one connecting them both with the intention of bringing Rey to him to expose Luke's location. Basically, none of it's true.



Well, Luke said he momentarily thought about it and then decided against the idea. But Ben woke up, thought he was being attacked and we all know the rest. But yes, the idea that Luke would even conceive of that as an idea is not 'him'.



I agree with the first point. The second is that Luke didn't give Lor San Tekka the map, Tekka was researching the location of the first Jedi temple and figured Luke would be there.



Because otherwise that would have given the game away to Kylo, and not given the rebel/resistance time to escape.



I know, man. I know. WHY WHY WHY?



At the very end, when they're on the Falcon, Finn opens a drawer to get a blanket for Rose. In there, are the books. Rey nabbed them, the cheeky little scavenger.

Yoda warned Luke that once he starts down that dark path it will forever dominate his destiny. I'd argue that yes, it is entirely within Luke to attack and kill Ben in his sleep.

Ben? You mean Ren? There were 2 versions of this, Luke’s version vs Ren’s version. Whether Luke was poised in a threatening stance, or he actually attacked first, if Ren was not a baddy, why destroy the Jedi Temple and kill innocent students? Would this not justify him being neutralized in the first place? It’s just too bad that for enlightened people that killing is the answer to resolve differences, not that they have a choice which may be defend yourself or die. How’s that for equivocating?

And, I’m a bit confused about going down the dark path. The Jedi are by no means a pacifist organization. Evil is removed by either changing minds, but routinely excising it... by force.

Btw, I did not mind the porgs. They are cute.

​

 

[kingalexthe1st]

Except you're all wrong of course.

*Force chokes thread*

Did you enjoy TLJ? I really hope you did, because I wish I would have.
[doublepost=1513783357][/doublepost]

Ben? You mean Ren?

Ben Solo / Kylo Ren

 

[duffman9000]

Ben? You mean Ren? There were 2 versions of this, Luke’s version vs Ren’s version. Whether Luke was poised in a threatening stance, or he actually attacked first, if Ren was not a baddy, why destroy the Jedi Temple and kill innocent students? Would this not justify him being neutralized in the first place? It’s just too bad that for enlightened people that killing is the answer to resolve differences, not that they have a choice which may be defend yourself or die. How’s that for equivocating?

I meant both =)
I loved how this expands Ben's (whoops I did it again!) conversation with Luke in the original trilogy about "point of view". Both points of views were correct from the person telling the story. Ren was not fully turned when he saw Luke with a drawn light sabre. I think he was being fed lies by Snoke (Luke is jealous of your power, he is holding you back). To see Luke "attack" him affirmed everything Snoke was telling him. Ren going on a murder spree maybe was him finally freeing his dark side impulses.

And, I’m a bit confused about going down the dark path. The Jedi are by no means a pacifist organization. Evil is removed by either changing minds, but routinely excising it... by force.

Btw, I did not mind the porgs. They are cute.

Once you get a taste of that sweet nectar, you'll always have a taste. I'm not a cigarette smoker. I've smoked before, but I I've only bought a handful of packs in over 20 years. IIRC, 3 lol. But, everytime I smell one I get the itch to have one. Solution? None of my friends smoke.

 

[Huntn]

Did you enjoy TLJ? I really hope you did, because I wish I would have.
[doublepost=1513783357][/doublepost]

Ben Solo / Kylo Ren

Doh!

 

[duffman9000]

Did you enjoy TLJ? I really hope you did, because I wish I would have.

I enjoyed it much more the second time. The run time is the biggest downer for me. There are parts that just drag on. Eliminate parts of the story (minus 20 minutes) and then my feelings improve drastically.

 

[Huntn]

I meant both =)
I loved how this expands Ben's (whoops I did it again!) conversation with Luke in the original trilogy about "point of view". Both points of views were correct from the person telling the story. Ren was not fully turned when he saw Luke with a drawn light sabre. I think he was being fed lies by Snoke (Luke is jealous of your power, he is holding you back). To see Luke "attack" him affirmed everything Snoke was telling him. Ren going on a murder spree maybe was him finally freeing his dark side impulses.




Once you get a taste of that sweet nectar, you'll always have a taste. I'm not a cigarette smoker. I've smoked before, but I I've only bought a handful of packs in over 20 years. IIRC, 3 lol. But, everytime I smell one I get the itch to have one. Solution? None of my friends smoke.

This qualifies as a good explanation, well as good as any, but my issue is how moral positioning is promoted in this series. You either believe in the basic goodness of higher life forms, consideration for each other, that killing is wrong and should be avoided, mercy given, or suddenly you can flip, become a selfish bastard and choose murder as the way to gain advantage and serve yourself. As a general rule, I don't see this kind of a change to be realistic psychological dynamic, but I’m not a psychologist.

 

[AustinIllini]

You're not the first person I have heard say it's better a second time. Will find out tonight.

 

[duffman9000]

This qualifies as a good explanation, well as good as any, but my issue is how moral positioning is promoted in this series. You either believe in the basic goodness of higher life forms, consideration for each other, that killing is wrong and should be avoided, mercy given, or suddenly you can flip, become a selfish bastard and choose murder as the way to gain advantage and serve yourself. As a general rule, I don't see this kind of a change to be realistic psychological dynamic, but I’m not a psychologist.

Yoda once told Luke that the force was used for knowledge and defense, never for attack. Luke not physically confronting Ren is much more inline to what Yoda tried to teach him.

I'll wager that Luke was susceptible to the dark side, even if only for brief moments (he briefly thought of killing Ren), but was ashamed for even having the thought. That is one of the weaknesses that he needed to teach.

 

[decafjava]

Did you enjoy TLJ? I really hope you did, because I wish I would have.
[doublepost=1513783357][/doublepost]

Ben Solo / Kylo Ren

I did actually but I'm dumb I liked all of the films on some level.

 

[kingalexthe1st]

I did actually but I'm dumb I liked all of the films on some level.

Good stuff. I'm conflicted about it. Like I said in my earlier posts, not disappointed; just sad.
Maybe the 2nd time round will be better, as recommended by duffman9000

 

[obeygiant]

I may not watch this movie again...ever.

I never thought I'd say this but JJ Abrams would have done a better job on TLJ.

 

[duffman9000]

Good stuff. I'm conflicted about it. Like I said in my earlier posts, not disappointed; just sad.
Maybe the 2nd time round will be better, as recommended by duffman9000

I've known for a long time that the new trilogy is for a new generation. We were given Rogue One (and I'm grateful), and that would be the last taste. The Solo film may tread different territory...

The prequels were not made for my generation at all. I understand that Star Wars was always meant to be enjoyed by younger people. That's all I'm going to say about that ****. It's too early in the morning to let the prequels rile me up.

Back TLJ. It's the end of the Jedi as my generation knew them. But that's the way of things. The old give way to the young and now it's their turn. All us older folk can do is sit back and enjoy or critique the ride. It's not for us, although it's us that would buy the expensive toys for kids (if you have any).

 

[Huntn]

Yoda once told Luke that the force was used for knowledge and defense, never for attack. Luke not physically confronting Ren is much more inline to what Yoda tried to teach him.

I'll wager that Luke was susceptible to the dark side, even if only for brief moments (he briefly thought of killing Ren), but was ashamed for even having the thought. That is one of the weaknesses that he needed to teach.

This may be slippery slope territory, but what if you can save 1000 lives by killing one bad person? I tend to believe that the philosophy believes premtively taking a life is not worth the cost to the individual who does the killing, even if a 1000 others die as a result.

 

[MacDawg]

It felt like a cheap knock off of the original trilogy sold out of somebody's trunk or from under their raincoat
"Pssst, hey buddy, wanna see something shiny?"

 

[duffman9000]

This may be slippery slope territory, but what if you can save 1000 lives by killing one bad person? I tend to believe that the philosophy believes premtively taking a life is not worth the cost to the individual who does the killing, even if a 1000 others die as a result.

Oh slippery slope indeed. Luke also had another choice. He could have told Ren that he himself understood the lure of the dark side. Luke knows what it feels like to listen to it. Luke could have taught Ren about his own failures. I get the sense Luke didn't tell or teach anyone about what he learned while fighting Vader.

TLJ is really good at conveying a lot of information in simple terms when Yoda and Luke are speaking. Yoda tells Luke in RoJ to pass on what he has learned. In TLJ Yoda reminds bonehead Luke to pass on everything he has learned: the strengths and the failures. He makes a point in bringing up that failure is the greatest teacher (This is why I think Luke didn't teach his failures to Ben).

 

[Huntn]

I did actually but I'm dumb I liked all of the films on some level.

An interesting comment. I liked the film on some minimal level too. It had some good qualities, but the story based on rehashed elements is not forging new territory, not satisfying for me. It’s as if they have no new ideas for the Star Wars universe.

 

[BarracksSi]

I liked how the little servant kid casually Force-grabbed the broom at the end. Half-expected him to Force-sweep all the hay off the floor, but that would’ve been over the top.

 

[duffman9000]

I liked how the little servant kid casually Force-grabbed the broom at the end. Half-expected him to Force-sweep all the hay off the floor, but that would’ve been over the top.

I remember this. Was his head turned toward the broom when he forced grabbed it? It would be interesting to know if he did it without knowing.

 

[Huntn]

Oh slippery slope indeed. Luke also had another choice. He could have told Ren that he himself understood the lure of the dark side. Luke knows what it feels like to listen to it. Luke could have taught Ren about his own failures. I get the sense Luke didn't tell or teach anyone about what he learned while fighting Vader.

TLJ is really good at conveying a lot of information in simple terms when Yoda and Luke are speaking. Yoda tells Luke in RoJ to pass on what he has learned. In TLJ Yoda reminds bonehead Luke to pass on everything he has learned: the strengths and the failures. He makes a point in bringing up that failure is the greatest teacher (This is why I think Luke didn't teach his failures to Ben).

Excellent point, they blew off what could have been an outstanding story element, Luke illustrating his value by salvaging Ben Solo, instead of taking the cheap, cliqued short cut relying on a formula that worked the last time. The result is what kind of crummy Jedi Master did they turn Luke into?

 

[duffman9000]

When Luke talks about the failures of the Jedi he is also talking about himself and his failures. I think he wants it to end because he sees the same mistakes being repeated. Maybe as if they are doomed to make the same mistakes.

 

[BarracksSi]

I remember this. Was his head turned toward the broom when he forced grabbed it? It would be interesting to know if he did it without knowing.

I don’t think he was looking at it — the way I remember it, he just walked by it, reached out his hand, and it floated to him. It seemed super-casual to me, like he’d been doing it since he was a toddler, but (and I’m reading more into it) never thought to do more with his power because he’s been stuck in the stables without any dreams.

Guess I’ll have to watch it again.

He was wearing Rose’s ring, wasn’t he?

 

[Apple fanboy]

Are we sure the books were taken by Rey? What was Luke doing inside the falcon during the chewie/porg scene?

She looks the type! I heard she used to steal power converters off old Star Destroyers!

Luke? He was stealing Han's lucky dice!