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If the cell tower belongs to Verizon or Sprint, then the experiment was meaningless.

You do realize - I hope - that cellular providers lease space for their antennas on competition-owned sites when the situation requires such a practice, right?

Having said that, regardless of who actually owns the cell site I was using for my experiment wouldn't matter in the long run: I said there's an AT&T central office only 2 streets over with a cell site on top and that signal was fully blocked by the condominium that's in the way.

But people will dismiss my results regardless, they just can't accept that perhaps Apple created something that simply doesn't work as it should, at least in my specific situation. That's ok, I said if you're not having problems with your iPhone 4, congratulations.

There's some contact info on an informational plate attached to the gate at that cell site, if I'm so inclined I can always call 'em and as--- oh wait, I can't make a 3G call with my iPhone 4... oops... :p

As I said: this has nothing to do with AT&T, "It's the phone, stupid." It doesn't matter who owns the site I associate with, the fact remains: if I hold the phone in my hand, it will die, and I can accelerate that with a fingertip in a precise location on the seam.

What part of that don't people get?
 
Yup, and then begins the daunting task of determining who has the right to rub "told ya so" in everyone's face. If Apple does release a fix, it's the people who complained who were right all along, but I have a feeling they're the ones who will be taunted by those who claimed there was no issue.

"HA! In your face! Go Apple!!"
"Umm..."

;)

Anyone here a bookie and wants to announce odds & coordinate bets? :cool:

Bet #1: Hardware vs Software
Bet #2: Apple's Fault vs AT&T's Fault
 
Flawed conclusion. It can very well be hardware issue. AT&T uses two different frequencies bands (850 & 1900). Many locations are serviced by only one of these bands. My theory is that this hardware flaw that only affects one of the frequencies bands. Thus why not everyone experiences the issue.

If the hardware is, however, able to process one of the frequencies successfully, then it seems reasonable to believe that the frequency rendering of the problematic one could be remedied via a software fix.
 
But people will dismiss my results regardless, they just can't accept that perhaps Apple created something that simply doesn't work as it should, at least in my specific situation. That's ok, I said if you're not having problems with your iPhone 4, congratulations.

It seems quite clear that there are problems with many iPhone 4s, but are you suggesting that your experiment has now proven that it's not a software issue that can't "be fixed next week with a software update"?

Either way, I don't see what the point of it all is. Either you've proven what we already know (that there are reception issues), or you're making a claim that you can't make (that it can't be fixed with a software update). Or am I missing a third option?
 
I think the following needs to be stated:

We can do all sorts of makeshift "experiments" where we hold the phone under some conditions and at different places, and invoke the name of science in the grand scheme of things, but unless you have any background information on how cellular radios work or the software behind the radios of the iPhone in iOS, then all of your work is for nothing.


The iPhone 3G back a year or so ago exhibited weak signals, and a ton of dropped calls where apple put out a fix that made things better.

The clear cut truth is that if all of us touched the antenna and the phone instantly went to "No Service", then you know for certain something is terribly wrong with the phone.

But many people are showing different results. This can only mean that the problem is far more complex than it seems to us.

It's completely pointless doing these experiments. Monday is only half a day away and for certain there will be a response on Monday. And then we'll all find out. I hope we can hold some kind of moratorium on this discussion until then.
 
arn, if you have a problem with the method, then attack it, come up with a better one. I however am discounting all the evidence you speak of because it doesn't hold up to what Br0adband did for us. Everyone else sat in their Mom's basement and made a video of their phone, without telling us anything about their circumstances. Thus far, Br0adband's account is the ONLY one i've seen that even remotely covers the unknowns. We need more more more reports like his to conclude, nay, to merely hypothesize that every iPhone 4 has the issue.

There is a lot of evidence. A lot of people have had issues, nearly everyone has been able to reproduce the issue. I'm admittedly, somewhat of an apple apologist on this issue, claiming it's not quite as large of an issue as people are making it out to be. Still, I don't deny it's a serious issue and Apple should do something about it.

We have thousands of reports of people dropping signal when bridging the antenna. So you suggest maybe each of these 1000s of reports are flawed, and they are randomly dropping signals for some other reason (despite the ability to do it on cue with the only added/removed variable being the antenna contact).

Fine, at that point that's a fine first step. But then someone steps up and gets a video directly under a cell tower, eliminating all other variables, and gets the EXACT same result, using the exact same changed variable (contact between the two antennas).

That's some pretty through testing actually. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck... it's probably a duck.
 
If the hardware is, however, able to process one of the frequencies successfully, then it seems reasonable to believe that the frequency it has problems with could be processed via a software fix.

Incorrect conclusion. Software can't fix a flawed antenna when it's shorted. Just because one frequency band still works, doesn't mean it can't affect the other frequency band. That's like saying you can take your radio antenna, and with the right software, pick up HD TV just as good as with a specialized HD TV antenna.
 
Incorrect conclusion. Software can't fix a flawed antenna when it's shorted. Just because one frequency band still works, doesn't mean it can't affect the other frequency band. That's like saying you can take your radio antenna, and with the right software, pick up HD TV just as good as with a specialized HD TV antenna.


How would a short only affect certain frequencies?
 
It seems quite clear that there are problems with many iPhone 4s, but are you suggesting that your experiment has now proven that it's not a software issue that can't "be fixed next week with a software update"?

Either way, I don't see what the point of it all is. Either you've proven what we already know (that there are reception issues), or you're making a claim that you can't make (that it can't be fixed with a software update). Or am I missing a third option?

I agree, I think it's pretty incontrovertible that there IS an issue. What's causing it and how it can be fixed, I haven't seen ANYTHING other than pure conjecture in that area. With that said it does SEEM like a hardware issue, but without knowing a LOT than atleast I know about the issue, I don't think we can reliably say
 
This is ridiculous. As far as I'm concerned, the phone has a defect. Holding it normally and having it cease to function, is a defect. Hardware, software, doesn't matter if the end result is the same, the phone doesn't work.

You have the right to argue the user is holding it wrong, and you also have the right to look like a fool. The choice is yours.

BB went to great lengths to prove there is an issue here. There is TONS of evidence out there that supports this. If the evidence doesn't meet your standards, then it doesn't. It certainly meets mine. Maybe the issue will get resolved through a firmware update, maybe it won't, but as for right now, the phone has a problem.

I don't need 100 iPhone 4 owners to stand under a tower to prove there is something 'wonky' going on. Thousands of real world, anecdotal reports are good enough for me.
 
There is no spoon. Stay tuned.


ObiWan.jpg
 
This is ridiculous. As far as I'm concerned, the phone has a defect. Holding it normally and having it cease to function, is a defect. Hardware, software, doesn't matter if the end result is the same, the phone doesn't work.

You have the right to argue the user is holding it wrong, and you also have the right to look like a fool. The choice is yours.

BB went to great lengths to prove there is an issue here. There is TONS of evidence out there that supports this. If the evidence doesn't meet your standards, then it doesn't. It certainly meets mine. Maybe the issue will get resolved through a firmware update, maybe it won't, but as for right now, the phone has a problem.

I don't need 100 iPhone 4 owners to stand under a tower to prove there is something 'wonky' going on. Thousands of real world, anecdotal reports are good enough for me.

Yeah, this is the bottom line. There is a problem, and whatever that problem is, this is a huge blunder by Apple. Even if it affects 10% of all the units sold that's still huge. Be it software or hardware.
 
Each frequency band has different characteristics.

That makes sense, and quite honestly, my understanding of electrical engineering is rather limited, but are you saying at difference frequencies the electrical impedance is different?
 
Incorrect conclusion. Software can't fix a flawed antenna when it's shorted. Just because one frequency band still works, doesn't mean it can't affect the other frequency band. That's like saying you can take your radio antenna, and with the right software, pick up HD TV just as good as with a specialized HD TV antenna.

You're also making the assumption that the antenna is flawed. We have yet to see any evidence that it is. You are aware of how much software is required for a cell phone to actually make a call correct?

The other thing your hypothesis would require is for the engineers at Apple to have basically ignored an entire AT&T frequency while developing the phone. Sure, it's possible that during the entire HW development cycle of the iPhone4 no engineer thought of testing it against *both* AT&T frequencies, but seems unlikely. Even the worst developers I've managed and worked with do a better job of testing than that.

A software bug seems to be the most likely culprit as the software was being changed right up until manufacturing and is the easiest place for a bug to slip in and not be caught in the condensed testing time frame.
 
Anyone here a bookie and wants to announce odds & coordinate bets? :cool:

Bet #1: Hardware vs Software
Bet #2: Apple's Fault vs AT&T's Fault

Bet #1: no idea, but its obvious and clear to me from my own experience and all the other information, taken with caution, that there is a significant issue. Bit of both IMHO.
I can only hope they fix it quickly and as painlessly as possible what ever it takes.
(not to speak out of turn as Im sure he has to balance his interests but when the owner of one of the biggest Mac Forums on the planet says he also has this issue on two phones then Im fairly confident that this is a very real issue and will not rest until a satisfactory outcome has been reached)

Bet #2: Nothing to do with AT&T in this case, same thing happens in Japan where I am, and there is comments from plenty of other non-US users to further back it up.
 
It seems quite clear that there are problems with many iPhone 4s, but are you suggesting that your experiment has now proven that it's not a software issue that can't "be fixed next week with a software update"?

Either way, I don't see what the point of it all is. Either you've proven what we already know (that there are reception issues), or you're making a claim that you can't make (that it can't be fixed with a software update). Or am I missing a third option?

Once again, there are TWO DISTINCT ISSUES here:

1) The SOFTWARE issue: The phone can't seem to handle the attenuation caused by simply holding it in the hand, as proven by countless videos of people from different parts of the world using the iPhone 4 and signal degradation on a pretty massive scale happening. That's one thing and the theory with that is that the phone simply isn't changing to a more reliable signal or frequency as it is designed to do. This I believe is what the so-called still unofficially announced "fix" or software update could address - it could reprogram the circuit for doing proper channel hopping or frequency adjustment and make THAT aspect of the phone work properly.

2) The HARDWARE issue: Killing it by bridging the seam between the antenna bands as I can do with a fingertip, as others have done with a house key, a piece of wire, etc. While connecting two disparate antennas is never really a "good thing," the point here is that the circuit shouldn't allow such contact to affect the signal, not to the dramatic and totally catastrophic effects that I myself and many many others are experiencing: loss of signal and then total loss of service. And yes, I can get the same results by holding it in my hand (not just the fingertip) but it requires somewhat more pressure.

The fact that I can alter the effect with how much force I apply to my grip is 100% indicative of a HARDWARE problem.

My belief: they can do something about the software issue by programming the circuit to handle the attenuation better (up the power output, hop channels/frequencies), etc. I do NOT believe that they can fix the hardware issue with such a firmware update, but I have no problem with being proven wrong.

Let me make that last point 100% perfectly in your face clear so pay attention:

If they can fix the issues - both the hardware and the software ones that I myself and many others are experiencing, the ones I just described - with a firmware update, FANTASTIC and good job. More power to 'em.

I for one, based on my own experiences over the past few days, and my decades of radio communications experience from crystal sets to digitally switched packet communications and high speed data, don't think it's gonna be quite so easy, but if they can do it, great, good for us I suppose.

Regardless, I won't be keeping the phone. This is all just academic at this point and my participation is just to inform others of what could be the reasons for the issues they're starting to either suspect are happening or are already in progress and they'd like to know what the hell is up.

Simple.
 
i hope its software, but i just dont get how that would explain covering both the sensors. hmm. i mean in a way wouldn't covering any 2 sensors diminish quality. i can't think of an example, but hopefully someone gets what i mean by the whole "not surprised that covering a sensor decreases quality" i mean after all that is where the signal is the highest.
 
That makes sense, and quite honestly, my understanding of electrical engineering is rather limited, but are you saying at difference frequencies the electrical impedance is different?

Yes, impedance is a function of frequency. I also suspect it's a software issue where, under the right conditions, a slight change in impedance results in a cell being considered undesirable, and switching to a "more reliable" but lower power cell. The same change in reception of the signal that starts at lower power is considered less bad by the software than a change in reception of a strong signal.
 
You're also making the assumption that the antenna is flawed. We have yet to see any evidence that it is. You are aware of how much software is required for a cell phone to actually make a call correct?

The other thing your hypothesis would require is for the engineers at Apple to have basically ignored an entire AT&T frequency while developing the phone. Sure, it's possible that during the entire HW development cycle of the iPhone4 no engineer thought of testing it against *both* AT&T frequencies, but seems unlikely. Even the worst developers I've managed and worked with do a better job of testing than that.

A software bug seems to be the most likely culprit as the software was being changed right up until manufacturing and is the easiest place for a bug to slip in and not be caught in the condensed testing time frame.

My hypothesis is not flawed. The antenna appears very much flawed with it shorted against the other antenna. Did the Apple hardware engineers test this scenario ? Who knows ? But your hypothesis is flawed. Are you saying the hardware engineers *must* have tested this shorting scenario, but the software engineers didn't test it ? One of the engineering groups are at fault here. Why must it be the software group ?
 
I was keeping it for a special moment, but what the hell, here you are -

YOU ARE ALL HOLDING IT THE WRONG WAY!
 

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