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Steve Jobs Posts 'Thoughts on Flash' Open Letter

HyperZboy said:
To me the iPad is the equivalent of a defective product.
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We've heard the same complaint every time Apple abandoned some legacy technology. Serial ports, floppy drives, support for older Macs, etc. - lots of "it's defective! nobody will want it! this sucks!", followed by another $100,000,000,000 in revenue.

One million iPads sold in one month in one country - and those are the models lacking a key feature that lots of buyers are still waiting for - is a half-billion dollars in revenue just out the starting gate. Ain't defective.

Survival of the fittest often challenges our notion of "fit".
 
ctdonath said:
We've heard the same complaint every time Apple abandoned some legacy technology. Serial ports, floppy drives, support for older Macs, etc. - lots of "it's defective! nobody will want it! this sucks!", followed by another $100,000,000,000 in revenue.

One million iPads sold in one month in one country - and those are the models lacking a key feature that lots of buyers are still waiting for - is a half-billion dollars in revenue just out the starting gate. Ain't defective.

Survival of the fittest often challenges our notion of "fit".
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Apple's made much, much bigger gambles than Flash, and won. This is peanuts.
 
Fan boy switches off

I guess i am the bona-fide MAC fan boy; after many years on the evil PC I migrated to MACs at work and at home many years ago. My work is technical - I am a Professor of Computing but i work in a major UK university specialising in the creative industries. For many years the mantra here was PCs bad/MACs good; Gates bad/Jobs good. However recently i am beginning to doubt these long held articles of faith.

1) For one thing Windoze 7 aint so bad - finally beginning to catch up MAC OS - - certainly for home media [imho having used both extensively] Windoze 7 Media Centre slams equivalent MAC Elgato [EyeTV] products.

2) Despite the mantra from my post grad days, Bill Gates is not the anti-christ - evidenced (a) by the the huge amounts of money he has given to charity and (b) helping persuade Warren Buffet to contribute massively to Gates' charity foundation.

3) Jobs' attitude over Adobe & Flash is seriously alarming friends and colleagues here in the creative industries:

a) I couldn't care less if Flash is buggy and uses iPhone power - web sites i use, deploy it and i want to use those web sites;
b) As a software engineer i am outraged that Jobs has the nerve to tell me what tools i must use to write code for the iPhone platform; OK, check my App to check it meets platform requirements and restrictions if you must but if i wish to use Adobe tools, that should be my choice..

In conclusion I feel that perhaps the zeitgeist at my university is just beginning to move away from Apple. If Apple is seem as overly controlling - and here at my university it now is - Windoze is improving and Gates' no longer seen as the Devil, then I fear Jobs' may be seriously be miss-reading the mood of the times.

These restrictions on Adobe are a mistake Steve; one of your employees should be brave enough to tell you..
 
fishmoose said:
Well, it's an open standard by any other name, it's not run by one company for example as Steve points out in his letter.
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That's reaching quite a bit - I don't know why people cut Steve slack on this. When they start asking for license fees, it's one company that is going to come calling: MPEG LA.

lemarkle said:
b) As a software engineer i am outraged that Jobs has the nerve to tell me what tools i must use to write code for the iPhone platform; OK, check my App to check it meets platform requirements and restrictions if you must but if i wish to use Adobe tools, that should be my choice..
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Even then, that's not a guarantee that your app will pass Apple's approval process. They can reject it on pretty much any grounds they want to.
 
join the resistance!

Everyone!

Join the resistance, don't be assimilated by the Jobs mind meld.

It is really happening. You do have a choice. We can make a difference! Don't lose hope.

Join now at
www.SteveJobsIsNotYourMotherOrYourGodAndYouDoNotHaveToBelieveEverythingHeSays.com

Hold on to all that is human in your soul. Never give up.

If you are currently lost in his mind-warping machine, you must search deep in your soul, that small voice that is barely a whisper, crying out in the darkness, listen to it, listen.... it is your only hope.
 
Slip Jigs said:
Shame on Jobs for spreading misinformation.

For video, Flash and H.264 are not interchangeable. Flash is not a video codec. Flash provides a video player as an SWF or SWF object that delivers or streams various video formats, including H.264.

I can't believe he doesn't understand this. It makes all his comments suspect, and the Apple fan-boy Koolaid drinking population sucks it down.
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I'm pretty sure he understands it. "Flash video" usually refers to .FLV, using the Sorensen codec, etc. Sure it supports playback of h.264 video now, but so does the browser natively (HTML5), so I guess Steve's point is that if you're going to upgrade your video from .flv to H.264 format anyway, then why do you still need the Flash player container?
 
PeterQVenkman said:
That's reaching quite a bit - I don't know why people cut Steve slack on this. When they start asking for license fees, it's one company that is going to come calling: MPEG LA.
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As opposed to Ogg, where a million trolls each with their own codec patent will come calling as soon as anyone makes any money using Ogg.
 
Way to go Microsoft!

What's more amazing in all of this is how Microsoft has continued to professionally carry themselves regarding the lack of Silverlight in the iDevices. All of this media hype has been because of Adobe shooting off at the mouth. I've also searched and i see countless Adobe 'technical evangelists' and developers drinking up the adobe kool-aid, writing blog posts talking about how Jobs and Apple have it wrong. But the silverlight guys..(who are affected equally) couldn't care less.

No, i'm not a flash developer, but i am a windows developer (including silverlight) and i totally see Jobs' points. It's really time for Adobe to come from the back woods and start innovating!
 
PeterQVenkman said:
If Flash was used to create iPhone apps, it was most certainly used as middleware aid. Flash exporting iPhone apps is not a platform replacement any more than a Unity app is. Regardless, my issue is not with flash exported apps.

Steve directly called out 3rd party multiplatform/middleware tools as being bad for development. In games, the opposite is true.

Right now, a lot of middleware devs are nervous and angry - they can't get straight answers from Apple going on a few weeks now. Steve's letter really, really made a lot of people even more angry.

Plenty of game/app makers have stopped development right now while they wait. The indie devs have been hit the hardest. hopefully it will work out for the best, but ultimately, the iPhone OS is not the platform developers thought it was. Apple has made it clear that they may sweep the rug out from underneath you at any time.

I'm not even talking about adapting to new technologies, I mean overnight sweeping changes or vague rejections on the app store. The past few weeks have made people look at other platforms for a more predictable business model. Smaller developers, whom Apple claims to be supporting with iAd, now have to look at the amount of time and money they invest in developing an app. Games can take months. To have Apple effectively kill your project through TOS changes or a random rejection is a bitter pill to swallow.
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Thank you for summing up what I could not technically do myself.

This is the reason developers are switching to ANDROID in droves...

A predictable business model. And THAT is DEFINITELY NOT Steve Jobs message.

In the last month, Steve Jobs has effectively not only thrown Flash under the bus, but he's thrown LOTS of iPhone and iPad developers under the bus along the way, and ones that probably had already invested money in the platforms.

I think Steve Jobs statement today will have a positive impact on Android sales and development.

By the way, the new Flash 10.1 for Mac beta does seem to run better on Macs, and surprisingly, even on PowerPC Macs, but it's still not perfect and needs lots of work.

I'd love to own an iPad, I've tried one out, it seems fantastic.
But the notion that I cannot even pull the local weather radar or local TV news replays up seems to kill the idea of me buying one, at least for now.

And Steve Jobs seems to have put the final nail in my iPad buying coffin today, unless the entire internet world completely changes overnight and dumps Flash, which is unbelievably improbable.
 
supercaliber said:
My prior posts state that I think the #5 issue from Jobs is the most valid, and actually exposes the biggest reason Apple doesn't support Flash. Flash exposes the limitations of Touch.

No mouse rollover capability.
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But why is this cited as such a big deal? Touch is simply a new incarnation of a mouse pointer and a click function. You move a mouse pointer and click something to make something happen. With touch, your finger simulates the mouse movement and a tap simulates the click function.

Guess how Flash interactivity works. You move your mouse pointer and you click a mouse button to tell it to do something. An "optimized for iDevice" Flash player would replicate a mouse pointer and click just like it is already done on any other App.

If mouse rollover is used as navigation (and not just visual effects), that will be a problem... just like rollover functionality on non-Flash web pages is challenged if those rollovers are a navigational function (and not just a visual effect). But it's not like every bit of Interactive Flash depends on rollover capabilities to function. The vast majority of Flash interactivity is still point & click, for which touch & tap would be an equivalent action.

For those less frequent situations where a Flash coder has coded a web application that does have some navigational dependency of rolling over (not clicking), it will be a LOT easier for them to adapt that bit of functionality than to recode the entire application in HTML5 + h.264 + javascript. And if they do make that adjustment, it will still run on 97% of the world's computers, as opposed to going to all the trouble to completely redo it in HTML5, etc so that it can only run on a small subset of browsers that currently support HTML5, etc.

Bottom line: lots of websites that don't have any Flash have rollover functionality now. Singling out Flash rollover as some major obstacle to Flash on an iDevice is looking for support for Apple's stance in any way it can possibly be supported.
 
cmaier said:
As opposed to Ogg, where a million trolls each with their own codec patent will come calling as soon as anyone makes any money using Ogg.
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As opposed to anything that is an actual open standard. I pray google makes VP8 open standard, if only to stick it to Apple.

But I guess it's better to pay one master than many.

fishmoose said:
Exactly, and not to mention that H.264 is technically superior to Ogg.
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True, it is. VP8 can match it, though. From what I understand of VP8, they will most likely get sued by MPEG LA anyway. Looks like I'm stuck.
 
Apple has a policy and a plan that superceeds the debate.

By having the #1 smart phone and the #1 portable internet appliance, and by having aspects of the experience that are so compelling the vast majority of folks will disregard the few limitations, they seem to be both building a path and a considerable degree of success getting folks to walk that path. They seem to have had to add a few lanes at the manufacturing layer, and a few lanes at the server layer, and quite a few lanes at the developer layer.

I do not see how this strategy is anything other than an unqualified success.

Lately when reading MacRumors and other sites with Flash enabled ads and content, I occasionally get a pop up window asking me if I want to let a bad script be disabled. I prefer that alert to a crash or a freeze.

Rocketman
 
Bachi85 said:
Sorry, but he is an idiot.

This decision is clearly business-driven.
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Most decisions are. If Apple can't keep the fanboys hooked and new customers buying iDevices, it will lose money and marketshare. Damn money grubbing Apple. Everyone agrees that Adobe is just trying to the world a better place. It cares about making Flash on the Mac as great a product as Creative Suite on Linux. :rolleyes:
 
ctdonath said:
We've heard the same complaint every time Apple abandoned some legacy technology. Serial ports, floppy drives, support for older Macs, etc. - lots of "it's defective! nobody will want it! this sucks!", followed by another $100,000,000,000 in revenue.

One million iPads sold in one month in one country - and those are the models lacking a key feature that lots of buyers are still waiting for - is a half-billion dollars in revenue just out the starting gate. Ain't defective.

Survival of the fittest often challenges our notion of "fit".
Click to expand...

Except that it's only "legacy technology" if there is something READY TO REPLACE IT! BIG DIFFERENCE!

HTML 5 is totally BETA!

I can't even get the local WEATHER RADAR SCAN on an iPAD! LOL
 
HyperZboy said:
Except that it's only "legacy technology" if there is something READY TO REPLACE IT! BIG DIFFERENCE!

HTML 5 is totally BETA!

I can't even get the local WEATHER RADAR SCAN on an iPAD! LOL
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HTML 5 isn't in a software development cycle nor is it part of the US marine core, so no it's not BETA. As for specific sites, that's totally up to the developer of the given site to re-write there site using HTML.
 
hprata said:
Most consumers would Not know Flash caused the crash making them think Apple put out crappy product. That is a huge risk for Apple
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So again,
If it is a "most customers" and "huge risk" for AppleCare support, why does Apple allow Flash on their other computing devices?

And again: the first question for the AppleCare script could be: "do you have the Flash option on your iDevice turned on?" (with a simple way to see that they do or do not). If they do, AppleCare could advise them of ALL of Steves/Apple's views of Flash, and help them turn it off. Then, if the user still has problems, it's NOT Flash.

I use Macs like CRAZY- business & personal. And I do a lot of work in and with Flash, and thus spend a lot of time testing Flash through Safari. I can't get all these rampant crashes that people tout as evidence of why Flash is bad. Sure, sometimes Safari crashes (but not always because I'm on- or have been on- a site that uses some Flash). But it never crashes on me multiple times in a day- even when I spend the whole day on a site with Flash. For those people who do not have (what you must be thinking is) my good luck, you can always kill the Flash plugin and/or use an option like click for flash. Even if you hate Flash though: isn't it nice to have the OPTION to access it if you need it? That's basically my case for it on iDevices, as a user option, impacting- good or bad- only those who choose to turn on that option.
 
fishmoose said:
HTML 5 isn't in a software development cycle nor is it part of the US marine core, so no it's not BETA. As for specific sites, that's totally up to the developer of the given site to re-write there site using HTML.
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HTML 5 is beta in reality but not in geek terms, but then again I don't live in Apple Fanboy World!
LOL
 
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