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Not that this will change anybody's thinking, but licensing fee for a BD-drive, depending on which one you want, is between $4.50 and $7.00 per drive.

Expensive my ass.
 
I will also say that in some aspects BR is needed (video production). Tie this story to the one a few weeks ago about FCP and i can see Apple dropping all the hi end software to concentrate on selling toys for fools.

OSX doesn't support Blu-ray DRM. Final Cut Pro 7 and Compressor 3.5 support Blu-ray authoring.

Perhaps because I want to actually own my content and not be subject to being in a place with internet access anytime I want to watch something? Perhaps because I don't trust hundreds of GB of movies to a fallable hard drive that both needs replacing every couple of years at best and can put me at risk for losing my entire library should the drive die? Perhaps because I like to be able to grab a disc and take it somewhere else to watch and not have to worry about if the other guy's player will "let" me watch it because iTunes dictates who is "authorized" or not? Perhaps because there is absolutely no rival for Blu-ray quality for the time being and relegating my choices to streaming and/or downloadable content means having to make compromises in my viewing experience?

Physical media ownership is a much smarter decision. What most people on this thread fail to realize is that there are more options than: Blu-ray, download, or streaming. Blu-ray is physical media, but it's optical, and soon to be obsolete. Many companies offer solid state options, hard drives, and network solutions for home theaters and media management, so you still own all your content, and you can get HD that way. Will this please videophiles? Probably not, but honestly, for a true videophile, what will?

As far as "fallible" hard drives, if your disks are only working for 2 years at best, it's either a PEBKAC or you're buying the wrong HDDs. Also, anyone in their right mind will backup their data.

As for the future, we can hope that instead of "grab[ing] a disk," we can just grab an SD card and go. Seriously, no one has constant uninterrupted high speed access to the internet. Solely streaming or downloading your content are two of the worst concepts I've ever heard.
 
Don't forget the cost of a 9.5mm Ultra-Slim Slot-Loading BRD.

Going from memory here so I might be mistaken, but didn't Jobs say that Blu-ray licensing was the 'bag of hurt'?

Found it! Yep, that's exactly what he said at the notebook keynote last October.

(From Engadget)

Straight from El Jobso's mouth at today's notebook keynote: "Blu-ray is just a bag of hurt. It's great to watch the movies, but the licensing of the tech is so complex, we're waiting till things settle down and Blu-ray takes off in the marketplace."

Since then...(from marketwatch.com)

TOKYO, Mar 08, 2010 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- Four leading companies -- Mitsubishi Electric Corporation, Thomson Licensing, Toshiba Corporation and Warner Bros. Home Entertainment (collectively, the "BD4C Licensing Group") -- today announced that they have commenced a worldwide joint licensing program beginning on March 1, 2010 for Blu-ray ("BD") and DVD patents essential for BD decoders, BD encoders, BD players, BD read-only discs, BD recordable discs, BD drives, BD/DVD hybrid discs and BD recorders ("BD Products"), including BD Products that incorporate DVD functionality.

The potential licensees will benefit from one-stop shopping for the essential patents owned or controlled by the four companies, which will facilitate the development of the BD market.

The license portfolio consists of BD and DVD patents, owned or controlled by the four companies, that are essential for BD Products. Licenses for the portfolio will be available for products that comply with the specifications for the BD formats promulgated by the Blu-ray Disc Association.

Interested parties are also free to negotiate separate license agreements, rather than taking a single portfolio license, with each of the four companies, which have committed to provide such licenses for their respective essential patents under fair, reasonable and nondiscriminatory terms and conditions.

The companies have authorized Toshiba to act as licensor for the BD4C Licensing Group in licensing their essential BD patents for this joint licensing program.

Royalties under the terms of the portfolio license will be as follows:


Category Royalty
BD-Video Disc US$0.04 per disc
BD-ROM Disc US$0.04 per disc
BD-R Disc US$0.065 per disc
BD-RE Disc US$0.09 per disc
BD/DVD Hybrid Disc US$0.08 per disc (including BD/DVD Hybrid ROM Discs and BD/DVD Hybrid Video Discs)
BD Decoder US$1.00 per decoder, with an annual cap of US$10,000,000
BD Encoder US$1.50 per encoder, with an annual cap of US$15,000,000
BD-Video Player US$4.50 per player
BD-Video Combo Player US$6.00 per player
BD Video Recorder US$7.00 per recorder
BD-Video Combo Recorder US$6.00 per recorder
BD-ROM Drive US$4.00 per drive
BD Recordable Disc Drive US$6.00 per drive
BD-ROM Combo Drive US$5.00 per drive
BD Combo Recordable Disc US$5.00 per drive

One stop shopping is a bag of hurt?

EDIT:
Steve's a pretty inventive kind of guy. He could find a way to make it work in a slot loading drive if he wanted to. He just doesn't. As others have already said, he doesn't want Blu-ray eating into iTunes movie store. But if that's the case, why doesn't he just say so rather than coming up with a new excuse after the one he had was remedied?
 
Going from memory here so I might be mistaken, but didn't Jobs say that Blu-ray licensing was the 'bag of hurt'?
Found it! Yep, that's exactly what he said at the notebook keynote last October.
(From Engadget)
Since then...(from marketwatch.com)
• BD Video Recorder US$7.00 per recorder
One stop shopping is a bag of hurt?

Okay then, I was expecting a drive no less than $500 since that is the minimum I see Sony or Dell (I forget which one, but the other charges $600) charge for an upgrade on their 9.5mm Ultra-Slim Tray-Loading BRDs. But you say it only costs $7, for a 9.5mm Ultra-Slim Slot-Loading BRD, I'll take that bet. I'll be waiting right here.
 
Okay then, I was expecting a drive no less than $500 since that is the minimum I see Sony or Dell (I forget which one, but the other charges $600) charge for an upgrade on their 9.5mm Ultra-Slim Tray-Loading BRDs. But you say it only costs $7, for a 9.5mm Ultra-Slim Slot-Loading BRD, I'll take that bet. I'll be waiting right here.

It only cost $7 to license the drive. Those are the licensing prices. Those have nothing to do with how much Sony or Dell charge you.

I typed this real slow. Does that help?
 
So did this Jobs e-mail turn out to be as fake as the iphone one was yet? I can't believe anything that gets reported on Macrumors anymore.
 
OSX doesn't support Blu-ray DRM. Final Cut Pro 7 and Compressor 3.5 support Blu-ray authoring.



Physical media ownership is a much smarter decision. What most people on this thread fail to realize is that there are more options than: Blu-ray, download, or streaming. Blu-ray is physical media, but it's optical, and soon to be obsolete. Many companies offer solid state options, hard drives, and network solutions for home theaters and media management, so you still own all your content, and you can get HD that way. Will this please videophiles? Probably not, but honestly, for a true videophile, what will?

As far as "fallible" hard drives, if your disks are only working for 2 years at best, it's either a PEBKAC or you're buying the wrong HDDs. Also, anyone in their right mind will backup their data.

As for the future, we can hope that instead of "grab[ing] a disk," we can just grab an SD card and go. Seriously, no one has constant uninterrupted high speed access to the internet. Solely streaming or downloading your content are two of the worst concepts I've ever heard.

Optical media is not "obsolete" and Flash storage is not the wave of the future. You can play an optical disc for years back to back and it will not wear out. Let me know how that works out with a flash card. They have a defined read/write limit. Optical formats are still the top in archival media. They are the longest lasting storage option we have.
 
It only cost $7 to license the drive. Those are the licensing prices. Those have nothing to do with how much Sony or Dell charge you.

I typed this real slow. Does that help?

Again, the licensing isn't the ONLY cost to consider. Jobs' statement clearly pointed a finger at the poor licensing at the time. That has changed, but the cost of drives is still very, very, very high for what Apple would need for it's most popular machines.

So if you are going to end a statement with "Expensive my ass." implying that the cost for a 9.5mm Ultra-Slim Slot-Loading BRD is minimal then you better have some fraking proof to back up that claim.
 
The cost of drives is still very, very, very high for what Apple would need for it's most popular machines.
The cost of drives is not a factor in this discussion at ALL. Take your pick. And we all know that good 'ol SJ would pass the cost onto the user anyway; it wouldn't hurt them in the slightest. All this nonsense about expense and licensing is total garbage. The bottom line is that they don't want anything taking away from their precious iTunes base. That's fine, I guess... I just wish they'd be straight about it instead of making up lies to make them seem less douchey than they've already become.
 
Again, the licensing isn't the ONLY cost to consider. Jobs' statement clearly pointed a finger at the poor licensing at the time. That has changed, but the cost of drives is still very, very, very high for what Apple would need for it's most popular machines.

So if you are going to end a statement with "Expensive my ass." implying that the cost for a 9.5mm Ultra-Slim Slot-Loading BRD is minimal then you better have some fraking proof to back up that claim.

I didn't imply anything about further cost of the drive. I never mentioned anything other than the cost of the licensing. I followed up with some fraking proof that licensing is no longer the 'bag of hurt' Jobs alluded to last year. And Jobs has never stated that the cost of a slot loading drive is what is keeping him from having it added to the Mac line. So what the hell does that have to do with anything?

Reading comprehension really isn't your thing, I see.
 
Steve Jobs Suggests Blu-ray Not Coming to Mac Anytime Soon....

"Steve Jobs Suggests Blu-ray Not Coming to Mac Anytime Soon..."

And I suggest I'm not buying another Mac anytime soon then. Case Closed.
 
The cost of drives is not a factor in this discussion at ALL. Take your pick. And we all know that good 'ol SJ would pass the cost onto the user anyway; it wouldn't hurt them in the slightest. All this nonsense about expense and licensing is total garbage. The bottom line is that they don't want anything taking away from their precious iTunes base. That's fine, I guess... I just wish they'd be straight about it instead of making up lies to make them seem less douchey than they've already become.
Of course, which we know purely from their lack of inclusion of AACS. That don't to supply a signal Blu-ray drive to any customer and they could still play Blu-ray movies with their own drive. If they don't offer that support it's obviously because they are backing other methods overODDs for the future of PCs.

That still doesn't excuse a blanket statement about expense of Blu-ray licensing in March 2010 from October 2008(?) and completely ignoring a major reason then why Apple couldn't support Blu-ray in their PCs.
 
I didn't imply anything about further cost of the drive. I never mentioned anything other than the cost of the licensing. I followed up with some fraking proof that licensing is no longer the 'bag of hurt' Jobs alluded to last year. And Jobs has never stated that the cost of a slot loading drive is what is keeping him from having it added to the Mac line. So what the hell does that have to do with anything?

Reading comprehension really isn't your thing, I see.

You think he's going to say, "The licensing is a huge pain right now, but we also can't get any manufacturer to make the drives we need at a cost that makes sense. It's still going to be another year before a drive that fits our ridiculously thin machines even hits the market. That's the problem. We just don't want to machine huge notebooks with tray-loading drives."

How about a little critical thinking before you start quoting comments from nearly two(?) years ago with prices from just a few months ago, regarding a topic that then easily shifted the blame to someone else. The fact is, Apple stopped thinking about Blu-ray long before Jobs' statement when the HD-DVD/Blu-ray war allowed digital streaming to take hold and pave a decent path that wins on convenience. Again, the license reasoning was just a scape goat for other real issues at play. Critical thinking is your friend~
 
Well this conversation has gone way overboard. Forget the 9.5mm thin loading slot drives, I agree with everyone who says they should simply do away with optical drives on Mac. HOWEVER, they should offer a USB external drive, like they do for the MBA and Mini Server, and there should be a Blu-ray option there.

Then the drive can be a tray load 12.5mm cheapo drive, no need for a particular form factor.

Personally ? I haven't watched a movie from optical disc on my computer in ages. I quit the practice when I finally ditched my Creative DXR2 kit after purchasing my first stand-alone DVD player. Of course, the Creative kit was hooked up to my TV. This was sometimes in the 90s back when the thing was 250$ and the cheapest DVD player was around 600$.

That's no excuse to not give the option to people who need/want it. I buy a lot of movies in a physical format and will for a long time. The Internet just isn't there yet, and even when it will be, I have a hard time trusting the cloud.

Heck, Music downloads are still a minority of music purchases. Physical CD purchases are still a bigger market than downloads. And those are 5 MB files. Instant gratification ? People would rather own something tangible for their money. That's the biggest hurdle to downloads.

And Lee. Dude. Chill, drop the coffee. And the Steve flavored Kool-aid. Your eyesight might return.

(Kool-aid is not an insult, it represents Blind Loyalty to a cult leader. People blindly repeating what Steve says as gospel. If the guy was right even half the time, we'd have flying cars by now.)
 
You think he's going to say, "The licensing is a huge pain right now, but we also can't get any manufacturer to make the drives we need at a cost that makes sense. It's still going to be another year before a drive that fits our ridiculously thin machines even hits the market. That's the problem. We just don't want to machine huge notebooks with tray-loading drives."

How about a little critical thinking before you start quoting comments from nearly two(?) years ago with prices from just a few months ago, regarding a topic that then easily shifted the blame to someone else. The fact is, Apple stopped thinking about Blu-ray long before Jobs' statement when the HD-DVD/Blu-ray war allowed digital streaming to take hold and pave a decent path that wins on convenience. Again, the license reasoning was just a scape goat for other real issues at play. Critical thinking is your friend~

You sure are making a lot of assumptions. How about some 'fracking proof' to back up your implications? :rolleyes:

The Jobs quote was from Oct. 2009. Less than a year ago.

Again, if Jobs doesn't want Blu-ray a part of the Mac line because it will eat into the iTunes movie store, why doesn't he just say so?

Oh, and digital distribution of movies hasn't taken hold or won anything. It may 10 years from now, but it's a long way off.
 
Blu-ray on a Mac is possible. All it takes is the will to do so. Jobs does not want Blu-ray on the Mac no matter how unreasonable many of us believe his stance to be his word is law (for as long as he runs Apple).

The high cost of 9.5mm slot-loading Blu-ray drives is only an issue on Apple notebooks (Apple's obsession with thin aside). Because they are prohibitively expensive, a simple external option would be fine as an interim solution for the notebooks. Sure beats carrying my Windows notebook in addition to my Mac. An external 12.7mm slot or tray load drive would cost less than $100. I bought several a few months back on eBay between $65 & $79 each.

The one thing the Apple apologists are right about -- is Jobs' successful transition of Apple from a computer company to a consumer electronics trendsetter. This transition makes Apple in general (and Jobs in particular) much less concerned with the wants, needs or desires of it's former core constituency (graphic professionals and computer enthusiasts). Apple can afford to alienate a segment of their buyers and still remain very profitable, even growing they business as they move into new markets.

I am very frustrated by this because I want many of the advanced features currently denied me by the "new" Apple. Frustration aside, I personally helped bring Macs into our company and continue to advocate their use as a business tool. iPods, iPads and iPhones are heavily used in my family and among my co-workers. I don't resent these products or the change they represent.

What I resent is how easily forgotten the faithful have become. Apple would never have survived to hire Jobs back without these forgotten people yet many of these very people feel the most betrayed.

The new adherents to the Apple faith wax rhapsodic about the virtues of the coming digital utopia of cloud-based storage and vast libraries of content available whenever and wherever you desire. Like any new convert they are fanatical in their devotion not just to the idea but to the man they believe responsible for making it all possible.

Failing to blindly follow this or any new path without question is not being resistant to change or dogmatic in outlook. Respect for the old ways is good. Properly bridging the gap between old and new ways of doing business is healthy. Perhaps downloads and clouds are the future, perhaps not. Until the largest consumer of such content (The United States) vastly improves broadband infrastructure for everyone we need to utilize that which works for the majority of people. Physical media for video isn't going away anytime soon.

Apple can keep its new faithful happy while not leaving those early believers behind. Adding Blu-ray support or offering more GPU options (I gratefully acknowledge the long-awaited hi-res 15" MBP) are small things that would mean a lot to an admittedly dwindling percentage of Mac owners. Let's try not to forget that.

Cheers,
 
Why in the world would we want physical media when we can store and stream everything digitally?
Quality.

I am not a poor college student watching movies in my dorm on a macbook. I am a tech geek who makes a good living. Not rich. Just good. There are quite a lot of people like me, too, who enjoy having a big television, nice media center, or dedicated home theater. It only takes a good living to afford that these days, and it's getting more affordable all the time. I don't need to settle for watching my movies on a 17" laptop or tiny 32" television where I can't discern the difference between DVD, Blu-Ray, and Streamed "HD."

So many people in here claim the Blu-Ray is dead at the hands of streaming video. Now, I fully buy the argument around on-demand convenience, cloud storage, subscription-based services, etc. I'm no dummy. That really and truly is the future. But the future isn't nearly as close as you think. And while those are solid, theoretical arguments, not a single one of them is the reason behind my home movie-watching setup.

Quality. That's the motivation behind my having a home theater. Everything else be darned. First and foremost, I want an awesome experience watching movies. That's why I've invested thousands of dollars into heart-pumping surround sound, a huge high-definition screen, etc. Inferior media spoils it all.

Physical DVDs upscaled to 720p by my 9-yr old HTPC running Windows 98 have superior sound and video to anything I can download from iTunes. You say that Blu-Ray is bested by streaming? Streaming hasn't even bested decade-old DVD technology yet.

There's a reason people go to the theaters and a reason why they buy big TVs. Movie-watching is supposed to be awesome, not convenient. Blu-Rays are frakkin' awesome. Even DVDs are awesome relative to streamed movies. Streaming just doesn't solve the right need when it comes to blockbuster movies.
 
I think you are vastly over estimating the number of people who are interested in purchasing the necessary equipment and willing to subject themselves to wearing ridiculous looking 3D glasses.

Blu-ray is largely an enthusiast format and 3D Blu-ray is going to end up a niche within a niche.

Right.. that's why ESPN is launching a 3D only channel this year, to satisfy a niche within a niche.

There sure are a lot of people in this thread who apparently know very little about blu-ray.
 
Right.. that's why ESPN is launching a 3D only channel this year, to satisfy a niche within a niche.

There sure are a lot of people in this thread who apparently know very little about blu-ray.

Don't forget the Discovery Channel also.

DirecTV just started their own 3D channel today.
 
So I assume that with this 3D thing taking off, led in part by companies like Pixar/Disney, that Jobs will have Macs able to do that. But no, that's only available through 3D BDs at home. So one company that he's kinda part of takes huge advantage of all that new cash, but he can't get one engineer to get BD to work in a Mac.

Steve, you're mostly right, but on Blu-ray you're full of @#%#. I don't buy movies from iTunes because YOUR SALES SUCK, among other reasons. I can get some DRMed video at 720p for $20, or I can buy the same one almost all of the time from Amazon on BD from less money. Since you can't re-download iTunes purchases, you would have to back up said iTunes video onto some hard disk that would get filled up in a hurry with 4GB movies. Oh, and that's another $100 or so I wouldn't have to spend with a BD drive.

I think Steve has a signal problem with synapses in his brain on this issue. Maybe we can put a $30 piece of rubber around it and improve it.
 
Optical media is not "obsolete" and Flash storage is not the wave of the future. You can play an optical disc for years back to back and it will not wear out. Let me know how that works out with a flash card. They have a defined read/write limit. Optical formats are still the top in archival media. They are the longest lasting storage option we have.

I didn't say optical media is obsolete, only that it will soon become obsolete.

Rewritable optical media will go up to about 1,000 erase/write cycles. NAND-based flash drives on the other hand, often reach 500,000 or more erase/write cycles.

This is fairly common knowledge.
 
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