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Huh?
Region coding was introduced with DVDs - because previous video sales were controlled by various incompatibilities in the PAL/NTSC territories.

All computer manufacturers were compelled to enforce region locking by the DVD industry - drives had the 5-changes-and-you-are-locked firmware.

Apple were a victim of this anti-consumer limitation, not the cause.

C.

can you keep up?

DVD has 8 region codes.
Blu-ray has 3.
Apple has all their iTunes stores selling videos set as separate regions so I cannot purchase from another store to watch a movie in my location. So they have around 20 or so regions. So how is apple a victim when they are causing more of an issue? They are the cause, plain and simple.
 
As usual, the most telling example would be the most common film.
Lets take 35mm anamorphic print of a hollywood blockbuster on 20 years old projector which is in average condition and print is in its half life eg. the reels have been used for 100 times.
Projector jitter & worn perforations make the effective resolution less than 2 Mpx.

Panavision did a good presentation on the resolution of the feature film.

As a capture medium, film is very high resolution - but the process of editing, post processing, reprinting and duplication causes a generational loss of information with each re-printing from positive to negative.

Perfect quality master 35mm prints usually arrive at cinemas with a measurable resolution of about 1000lines - which is approximately 2K.

Movies which have used a digital intermediate, don't suffer this generational loss.

But most DI is done at 2K!

C.
 
can you keep up?
Yes, Your comment was a response to one on DVD region coding.
A rational person might conclude that was what you are talking about.

DVD has 8 region codes.
Blu-ray has 3.
Apple has all their iTunes stores selling videos set as separate regions so I cannot purchase from another store to watch a movie in my location. So they have around 20 or so regions. So how is apple a victim when they are causing more of an issue? They are the cause, plain and simple.

Why do you think Apple is doing this?

It offers them no commercial benefit whatsoever. Obviously they'd profit more if could sell the largest selection of movies to the largest audience.

These anti-consumer territorial restrictions are imposed by the rights holders.

Is this crappy and anti-consumer? You bet!

C.
 
No, the new versions of VLC do no avoid region codes. You can read this on their site. I don't have any issues with region codes, I have a multi-region DVD player connected to my TV, Blu-ray has broader regions, and a number of region free releases so I have never been stuck with any issues. And if I want to watch a DVD on my Mac I rip it on my PC and convert it to a h.264 file.

I haven't used VLC for a while, damn I'll have to check but I do have several older versions archived.
 
Why do you think Apple is doing this?

Money

It offers them no commercial benefit whatsoever. Obviously they'd profit more if could sell the largest selection of movies to the largest audience.

Again, more money.

These anti-consumer territorial restrictions are imposed by the rights holders.

Why would they impose stronger restrictions for Apple than they do for blu-ray, and even higher than they do for DVD. Maybe it is for money?

Is this crappy and anti-consumer? You bet!

Yes it is.
 
Brilliant!

Apple make a small amount of cash from each and every movie sold. Consumers are frustrated by the limited catalog of movies in some iTunes stores.

It does not take a genius to figure out that Apple would make MORE MONEY if MORE CONTENT was available to MORE PEOPLE. If you can kindly explain how Apple profits by restricting sales, I would be happy to hear it.

If you look to the App store - where Apple *does* have more control. Far fewer territorial restrictions are in place.


Why would they impose stronger restrictions for Apple than they do for blu-ray, and even higher than they do for DVD. Maybe it is for money?

Your argumentation skills certainly have me in a knot. If you are suggesting that the rights holders treat Apple less favourably than bigger distribution networks for commercial reasons, then you are correct.

If you remember Apple was not able to get music rights holders to dump DRM until Apple was the biggest kid in the playground.

C.
 
update - okay just tried a R1 DVD, Apple DVD player didn't like it of course but VLC 1.0.0 had no problem running it on my G5 with a LG DVD drive. I did read some newer Mac's this might not be the case.

Either way if it stops working I could always rip the DVD (I own) and use it that way.
 
The bigger iTunes and all digital downloads have become then piracy has also grown exponentially.

Its growth is exponential only in terms of bandwidth consumption, not actual discrete users. Invariably, most of that growth is due to a shift in typical media size, from music, then video then to 1080p.

if legal alternatives actually worked then piracy would decline but it hasn't its' growth actually outstrips any legal download service.

Everything "works"...to a degree, which makes the modeling of interactions simply more difficult. And it doesn't help that the Industry's claims of lost revenue have been overstated, and probably in many cases grossly so. For example, the RIAA lawsuit against Limewire is claiming lost revenue in excess of 80 years worth of music sales...even though Limewire has only been around for 10. Say again? Effectively, the RIAA's claim is that just Limewire is what prevented them from realizing nothing less than an 800% increase in their business for every year of the past decade, which flies in the face of reality.

I know calculators go back a long time. The keyword here is programmability.

What? You've never programmed an analog computer? Suddenly, I feel old.

That graph is awesome.

It is, because it very effectively illustrates just how consumer-hostile the product has become, and its all because the supplier is shortsightedly chasing after a few extra bucks with each additional trailer, etc.


in any other walk of life where law breaking was so common place....speeding, shoplifting etc. then the police would crack down like a ton of bricks. There is no deterrent.

Apparently, you don't drive on the same highways I do...

The threat of action doesn't work because it never comes...no other law is treated like this ... if society cannot police its self with stuff like this then big brother will.

In the case of Copyright, the Legislative branch has been immorally on the take from Lobbyists Quid Pro Quo. Big Brother will only enforce that which suits its interests, so to highlight an increasingly unjust law through enforcement would only serve to undermine the legitimacy of Big Brother's source of authority.

you can dress up your own actions in as much verbiage as you like but the simple truth is this...

theft.

True by classical definitions with blinders on, but by necessity, that morality paradigm also invokes the question of if the accusation is justified.

Much of the entire 'Pirates Bay' thing effectively is about questioning the morality of Intellectual Property in its current (modern) implementation...which is to say that Copyrights are Forever. With nothing passing anymore into the Public Domain, there is a backlash - - and the piracy of content is merely a manifestation of it, which is not completely economically based...the graph being referenced above is an element to it too. As the saying goes "Ignore at your own peril" (sic).

Granted, this is a meta to the entire discussion, but it is one that is part of the underlying foundation and thus can't be simplistically ignored. And yes, this includes the longstanding principle of 'Fair Use' which has since been effectively made illegal in some jurisdictions.

And a preemptive comment: this is not "More insane denial to support theft." This is simply a messenger of what the peasants with pitchforks are doing outside, your Majesty, and not an endorsement thereof.

-hh
 
Apple make a small amount of cash from each and every movie sold. Consumers are frustrated by the limited catalog of movies in some iTunes stores.

Then explain the reason why Apple forces a more restrictive region coding scheme on their users than other region coding schemes available?

If you look to the App store - where Apple *does* have more control. Far fewer territorial restrictions are in place.

How do you figure that? They restrict the app store exactly the same as they restrict their movie sales, exactly the same as they restrict their music sales.


If you remember Apple was not able to get music rights holders to dump DRM until Apple was the biggest kid in the playground.

Ok, it seems you believed Steve Jobs when he made up that sob story about DRM. If Apple is so against DRM why do they (and when I say they, I mean Apple) force DRM on their Audio Books (it is Apples requirement not the rights holders), and why do they force DRM on their apps?
 
What *are* you going on about now?

C.

This...

Be careful! Exercising fair-use is equivalent to genocide in these parts.

C.


but then again I think you knew that.

Fair use as has been falsely propagated in this thread no longer exists.

Fair use now and in real terms is to put it (DVD/BD disc) into a physical DVD/BD player and watch it, privately.

You may think you should be able to rip and encode it...but you can't..legally and usually we can't choose which laws we follow.
 
If your fair use laws don't allow you to rip (format shift) your legal copy of something, then it's a very sad state of affairs. :(
 
Then explain the reason why Apple forces a more restrictive region coding scheme on their users than other region coding schemes available?
How about you explain? How Apple can use this scheme to make money? It's obvious to even someone with severe head trauma that Apple would benefit most by selling the widest possible catalog to the widest possible audience.

How do you figure that? They restrict the app store exactly the same as they restrict their movie sales, exactly the same as they restrict their music sales.
But this does not impact the consumer, because the catalog and pricing is virtually unified across all territories. You can buy Japanese apps in the UK app store. You can buy UK apps in the US store.

Ok, it seems you believed Steve Jobs when he made up that sob story about DRM. If Apple is so against DRM why do they (and when I say they, I mean Apple) force DRM on their Audio Books (it is Apples requirement not the rights holders), and why do they force DRM on their apps?

Audible hold the rights to the majority of Audio Books, and they certainly do require DRM. Because content which comes from Audible direct has DRM.

You are right that Apps have DRM.
Not least because app developers demand some DRM on games to prevent uncontrolled sharing.

Are the DRM restrictions on apps aggressively anti-consumer? Nope, I can share purchased games with my son. They don't force me to re-purchase.

C.
 
If your fair use laws don't allow you to rip (format shift) your legal copy of something, then it's a very sad state of affairs. :(

Be that as it may...... whether the law is right or not is not the point.


It is illegal to circumvent the copy protection on any dvd/BD disc. End of story.

to rip it you must perform this circumvention so vis a vis ripping is illegal.

You can argue the non-enforcement of the law so far renders it worthless but again that isn't the point.

the basic premise of this law is correct in the US, UK and even in remote backward places like Oz... :p;)

j/k I love the place..!
 
You may think you should be able to rip and encode it...but you can't..legally and usually we can't choose which laws we follow.

archipellago.

Someone format-shifting for fair use has never been prosecuted - because no jury in this country would ever convict someone for doing so.

Effectively that law in dead. Unenforced and unenforceable.

Shifting bits, or removing copy-protection mechanisms for personal use, is not, nor ever will be, equivalent to theft. Theft involves depriving someone of something.

Removing copy-protection and RE-DISTRIBUTING - IS depriving someone of revenue. Downloading pirated material is also depriving someone of something. However...

Walking into a shop. Paying full price for a DVD, and then watching it after breaking a stupid anti-consumer locking mechanism is not morally equivalent to theft. It's morally equivalent to breaking into your own house.

Only someone who had suffered serious cerebral intoxication from having their tongue stuck up the anus of an entertainment industry lobbyist would think that it is.

C.

In a previous post, you accused me of internet piracy. Please retract that.
 
How about you explain? How Apple can use this scheme to make money? It's obvious to even someone with severe head trauma that Apple would benefit most by selling the widest possible catalog to the widest possible audience.

So you have no argument so you start insulting people. Pricing is one way, you can price a product differently to different markets.

But this does not impact the consumer, because the catalog and pricing is virtually unified across all territories. You can buy Japanese apps in the UK app store. You can buy UK apps in the US store.

Ok, here is a prime example that you don't understand what you are talking about.

You are talking about UK developed apps available for sale in the US, that doesn't mean anything. You cannot purchase apps from the US if you live in the UK (yes I know there is ways around this, I am talking about 99.9% of people). What happens when an app is released in the US, but not any of the other iTunes stores (this has happened, an example is the imdb app where it wasn't available outside the US for a long time after release)

An extract the iTunes EULA

3. NEW ZEALAND ONLY. The Service is available to you only in New Zealand and is not available in any other location. You agree not to use or attempt to use the Service from outside of the available territory. APL may use technologies to verify such compliance.

Audible hold the rights to the majority of Audio Books, and they certainly do require DRM. Because content which comes from Audible direct has DRM.

Actually no, several weeks ago I was listening to an episode of TWIT where Cory Dotorow was talking about one of his books, he requested Audible to release it without DRM, they said yes, they then told Apple to release it without DRM, Apple refused stating they would only release audio books containing DRM.

You are right that Apps have DRM.
Not least because app developers demand some DRM on games to prevent uncontrolled sharing.

Developers didn't demand it, Apple demanded it.

Are the DRM restrictions on apps aggressively anti-consumer? Nope, I can share purchased games with my son. They don't force me to re-purchase.

C.

You are restricted to five authorised computers.
 
And the restrictions while using iTunes and such are the reason I would like the option of BD. I can take to disc to anyone else that has a player and watch it easily. Don't get me wrong I love my iPod and iPhone but sometimes you want to access other content on your Mac and I would just like the option of using BD discs to legally watch movies on my 1920x1080 computer LCD. I mean whats the point of Apple putting in Full HD LCDs in their base iMac if the best iTunes can offer is 720 and not 1080.

I guess for now BD will have to remain separate to my Mac.
 
So you have no argument so you start insulting people. Pricing is one way, you can price a product differently to different markets.
The single largest issue surrounding territories is the difference in catalog.
There are far fewer movies in the UK and European stores. And I asked you to explain (perhaps not clearly) how this is to Apple's commercial advantage.

You can not explain it - because it is not in Apple's interest to do so.
The catalog differences are only explained by rights holders granting specific rights to different territories.


Ok, here is a prime example that you don't understand what you are talking about.

You are talking about UK developed apps available for sale in the US, that doesn't mean anything. You cannot purchase apps from the US if you live in the UK.
Why would I want to do that? - The app store catalogs are identical and the prices are unified. I can buy any US content right here - at the same price from the UK store.

The only exceptions are where the RIGHTS OWNERS have stipulated a territorial restriction. Blaming Apple for what the rights owners want is like blaming Poland for Hitler.


Actually no, several weeks ago I was listening to an episode of TWIT where Cory Dotorow was talking about one of his books, he requested Audible to release it without DRM, they said yes, they then told Apple to release it without DRM, Apple refused stating they would only release audio books containing DRM.
That's a fascinating single case example. I am sure Apple would be delighted to do so if more than 0.01% of authors demanded it. Doctorow is making one of his political points again.

Developers didn't demand it, Apple demanded it.
Dear EA. jfanning thinks you don't want DRM on App Store releases.

You are restricted to five authorised computers.
Yes, but each computer can have any number of iPods or iPads or iPhones - using the actual apps. The restriction was a drag for music, but not found it an issue for apps.

Frankly, as restrictions go, it does not seem that restrictive. How many copies of a BluRay are you allowed to make?

C.
 
archipellago.

Someone format-shifting for fair use has never been prosecuted - because no jury in this country would ever convict someone for doing so.

Effectively that law in dead. Unenforced and unenforceable.

Shifting bits, or removing copy-protection mechanisms for personal use, is not, nor ever will be, equivalent to theft. Theft involves depriving someone of something.

Removing copy-protection and RE-DISTRIBUTING - IS depriving someone of revenue. Downloading pirated material is also depriving someone of something. However...

Walking into a shop. Paying full price for a DVD, and then watching it after breaking a stupid anti-consumer locking mechanism is not morally equivalent to theft. It's morally equivalent to breaking into your own house.

Only someone who had suffered serious cerebral intoxication from having their tongue stuck up the anus of an entertainment industry lobbyist would think that it is.

C.

In a previous post, you accused me of internet piracy. Please retract that.



on the basis that I can't prove it and I don't think you have admitted it in this thread, I am happy to retract it. I think I mistake your nonsense for someone elses.

anyhow...

your moral/ethical standards line is so scarily low that what you have done will not necessarily reflect what you may or even will do in the future.

so... it goes like this.

You walk into HMV and buy a DVD, that DVD comes with;

a/ a price, a cost to you..lets say £5.
b/ useage restrictions, the licence.

the same DVD, as a downloadable film on iTunes also costs £5.


as, legally, you can't rip the DVD to mp4 to put on your iDevice, your only legal choice if you want to watch it portably is to buy it from iTunes for £5.

so then you would have 2 legal copies in 2 formats costing you £10 total.

if you decide that buying the same film twice is stupid and you decide to illegally rip it to use on your iDevice then you now have 2 copies, costing just £5.

You have therefore deprived the content creator (and associated chain) of £5 worth of revenue...illegally. Now I'm pretty sure thats theft....

just because you think the law is wrong doesn't matter, you aren't the law maker.

You need to stop with the 'shifting bits' nonesense, we are talking about fundamental rights and restrictions. i.e. the core issue not a sideshow.

Making statements about laws and jurys with no proof is as useful as most of the other things you have contributed to this thread but jfyi the statute of limitations on laws extend much further than the 10 years the DMCA (or equiv.) has been in and a case like this would not go to a jury as the facts would likely be indisputable. i.e. the 'has it been ripped' question would be answered pre trial.

I am telling you how it is, technically and legally, not if I agree or disagree. The fact that I have to do so to someone like you..in 2010 shows why we are where we are with this whole debate.

You seem fairly intelligent but you cannot or won't understand the basic tenets of the law of the land in which you live.

that is not my problem....
 
The single largest issue surrounding territories is the difference in catalog.
There are far fewer movies in the UK and European stores. And I asked you to explain (perhaps not clearly) how this is to Apple's commercial advantage.

I have already told you, money. After all, why when Europe has a common market it is not possible for someone in France to purchase from the UK iTunes store?

Why would I want to do that? - The app store catalogs are identical and the prices are unified. I can buy any US content right here - at the same price from the UK store.

You have still missed the point, Apple has placed region restrictions in the App Store, someone in France cannot purchase an app from the UK iTunes store. Why is that the case when there is a common market in Europe?

That's a fascinating single case example. I am sure Apple would be delighted to do so if more than 0.01% of authors demanded it. Doctorow is making one of his political points again.

Still places a black mark beside Apples name when they claim they hate DRM

Dear EA. jfanning thinks you don't want DRM on App Store releases.

Again, you have missed the point. If I release an App to Apple, I have no way of excluding DRM, it is forced on me.

Yes, but each computer can have any number of iPods or iPads or iPhones - using the actual apps. The restriction was a drag for music, but not found it an issue for apps.

Actually you are wrong, you may want to read the iTunes EULA.

Frankly, as restrictions go, it does not seem that restrictive. How many copies of a BluRay are you allowed to make?

Why would you even compare a blu-ray to the Apple App store? But in saying that, I can take my blu-ray and play it in any of my blu-ray players, even made by different manufactures. I can also take that blu-ray and lend it to someone so they can play it on their blu-ray player. No need to make a copy.
 
on the basis that I can't prove it and I don't think you have admitted it in this thread, I am happy to retract it. I think I mistake your nonsense for someone elses.

Retraction accepted sir. Thank you for that.

As for your other stuff.

Purchasing a disk for a computer with a DVD drive, gives the purchaser the impression they are entitled to watch it. By buying the disk an agreement is formed granting the purchaser rights. Building in hardware mechanisms to deliberately sabotage that, in my opinion, is equivalent of theft.

I am being deprived of the enjoyment I legally paid for.

You are arguing that that theft, is entirely justified by an un-enforcable law.
You are free to hold that opinion. I doubt that many share the view.

But surely in your moral framework, everyone who has moved bits from a CD to an iPod are also thieves?

C.
 
your moral/ethical standards line is so scarily low

No, his moral standards are high. He has legitimately purchased one copy, giving the movie studios some bread, and the artists a crumb. His actions might be scarily illegal, but they aren't immoral, and to think otherwise is buying into the studios greedy propaganda.

I can only speak for most people I know (uni students, and previously high school), and in my experience, most of them pirate everything. Those are scarily low morals, not someone who buys one legit copy of everything and watches it personally on one device at a time.

Once again, note I'm talking of morals, not what's legal.
 
You have still missed the point, Apple has placed region restrictions in the App Store, someone in France cannot purchase an app from the UK iTunes store. Why is that the case when there is a common market in Europe?

I don't get your point at all. I am trying to establish how these territorial restrictions are somehow beneficial to Apple. In terms of the App store, Apple don't set the pricing. It's up to the content creator to determine in which territories Apple may re-sell the app. Most content creators tick "all".

There are some catalog differences between stores, those catalog differences arise because the rights holders have reason to not grant Apple the rights to distribute in those territories.

It's therefore not legal for Apple to sell Apps when rights. And it's bizarre to blame Apple for that. Although the EU is a trading bloc, publishing is another world. Canal + does not have the rights to broadcast in the UK for instance.

It worth noting that if I travel outside my territory, the apps and movies continue to play.

C.
 
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