Steve Jobs Suggests Blu-ray Not Coming to Mac Anytime Soon

[janstett]

No, you are incorrect, if Apple sees Blu-ray as a dead end, there is simply no reason they need to provide it for anyone. You can shop somewhere else if you don't like their offerings... that's how competition works.

Blu-Ray... Or flash. Or Cydia. Or an unlocked phone. Or free tethering because we already pay $30/mo for data.

Why would would want to watch HD video on your computer anyway? Unless you have a 27" iMac,

Google "HTPC". People use their computers attached to big screen TVs and receivers. Many benefits to doing this -- as we all go to digital media (ahem) including music and pictures, there is just no set top box, including Apple TV, that handles them all flexibly and adequately. Secondly, with tools like AnyDVDHD you can decrypt and copy entire DVDs and Blu-Rays to your hard disk, bypass region coding, etc. Additionally, I have a 30" display with > 1080p resolution. Imagine how great crappy material you get on iTunes looks on it. Most computers have displays that are greater than 720x480. That would be why you would want to watch HD video on your computer.

you stream it to your TV, that's what the Apple TV is for... take a look:

Apple TV

Oh, you mean that 720p "hobby" thing that constantly overheats? The thing that requires me to rip my DVDs and Blu-Rays to a very narrowly defined format to see it? Have one, use it for remote speakers. Completely behind the times and inadequate for quality video.

 

[janstett]

No, I'm always correct. You forgot to include the time & energy to get that obsolete circle of bits. Where is "blu-ray" selling like hot cakes? Please cite your source. My sister lives in Rocklin, so don't try and lie.

You just don't like modern electronics for some reason.

It's the fastest selling format ever -- faster than even DVD.

Parsons said that the high-definition packaged media format maintained its strong early adopter sales pace, and it continues to amass hardware unit sales at a greater pace than the one-time record-setting packaged media format, DVD, did at comparable points in their rollouts.

In 2009, the number of Blu-ray households increased by more than 75 percent over 2008 totals. Dedicated set-top Blu-ray player sales were up more than 2.5 times over levels reported a year ago, according to the group, citing Adams Media Research data.

After four years in the market, total Blu-ray playback devices (including both set-top players and PlayStation3 consoles) numbered 17.6 million units, and 16.2 million U.S. homes had one or more Blu-ray playback devices.

Comparatively, DVD playback devices (set tops and PS2 consoles) reached 14.1 million units after four years, with 13.7 million U.S. households having one or more playback devices.

 

[archipellago]

Retraction accepted sir. Thank you for that.

As for your other stuff.

Purchasing a disk for a computer with a DVD drive, gives the purchaser the impression they are entitled to watch it. By buying the disk an agreement is formed granting the purchaser rights. Building in hardware mechanisms to deliberately sabotage that, in my opinion, is equivalent of theft.

I am being deprived of the enjoyment I legally paid for.

You are arguing that that theft, is entirely justified by an un-enforcable law.
You are free to hold that opinion. I doubt that many share the view.

But surely in your moral framework, everyone who has moved bits from a CD to an iPod are also thieves?

C.

they are entitled to watch it..they do watch it. They do have rights. Those rights are explicity in place at the time of purchase and no hardware restrictions are imposed.

Any dvd player will play it (region/function allowing)

You legally paid to enjoy it on a dvd player, not on your iDevice. You are getting exactly what you paid for at time of agreement/sale. There is no deprivation of any right at any point.

the law is not un-enforceable, a blind eye is turned as there are greater issues in society that need addressing. If the relevant law enforcement turned up at your house, it would be the easiset law in the world to enforce. They would have all the proof and the suspect has no defence.


On CD's yes..... ripping it is illegal too, at least in the UK.

 

[janstett]

um, dude - if movie studios never "waste their time" putting out content in soon-to-be-obsolete formats, how do you explain HD-DVD?!? It was the latest, greatest thing. It had MORE storage capacity than Blu-Ray. It was the FUTURE. Oh, wait, nevermind - throw those discs in the trash, they're OBSOLETE.

WRONG. There was a format war -- some studios (mostly Warner) lined up behind HD-DVD. Other studios lined up behind Blu-Ray. Both were on the market at the same time. They were both developed together and supposed to be one unified format.

HD-DVD had LESS storage capacity than Blu-Ray.

The two formats were fraternal twins. I suggest you google the history of the DVD format -- when Warner and Toshiba came up with one format, Sony and Philips came up with another, and IBM brokered a compromise that became DVD. Same thing happened this time, except they couldn't reach a compromise.

HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are mostly identical. I know, I have both and I have a dual player. The only differences are physical disk (Blu-Ray holds more), interactivity (HD-DVD uses MS technology, Blu-Ray uses Java), and Blu-Ray has a 2nd layer of encryption. They both use the same audio and video codecs.

Blu-Ray is dead. Physical media is dead. It will just take a few years to take its last breath. And yes, the studios will be happy to take your money for Blu-Ray discs right up until the end.

I suppose in the same way you could go into a maternity ward and shout that all those newborn babies are dead, they just have a few decades to take their last breaths. Dude, Blu-Ray is growing. You have no clue what you're talking about.

The bottom line is right now, if you want the best audio and video quality, you want Blu-Ray. Pity about the physical format thing, but that's the way it is.

"The Future" you keep talking about is barely better than DVD circa 1998 -- and given the bitrates, it's often WORSE than DVD quality.

 

[janstett]

Actually you're right that the movie studios want you to keep buying plastic discs. As long as piracy on BD is kept under control it will continue to be the defacto distribution method for 1080p. Digital downloads will be gimped to 720p low bitrate rentals, which is what the studios want.

Bingo. Additionally, it's in Apple's best interest to keep the bandwidth limited (in other words, minimal bitrate which = suboptimal quality) because as our tweener wouldn't know, they have to pay for bandwidth on the server side, and it's in the ISP's interest to keep bandwidth down too.

SJ has absolutely no influence over the success of BD, so of course he will diss it and preach to his own church about how it sucks. But BD will be around as long as DVD - 10years at least and there's nothing your turtle necked master can do about it since apple owns ZERO content.

Actually, you're wrong there. Steve Jobs is CEO of Pixar, as you'll recall. Pixar makes quite the fuss about presenting their films in the best possible quality with direct-to-digital transfers (no telecine) and stunning Blu-Ray releases. For some reason Steve's Jihad against Blu-Ray doesn't extend to Pixar. Nor Disney, which Steve is now a board member of due to its acquisition of Pixar. In fact, Disney seems quite excited about Blu-Ray.

But hey, I'm sure Steve Jobs is happy to watch the Pixar movies in 480p on DVD on his Mac. 'Cause Apple is all about "the best", right? I'm sure he pipes the sound into his Apple Hi Fi too.

 

[OllyW]

Steve Jobs is the former CEO of Pixar,

Fixed that for you.

 

[janstett]

Just a company, that thinks it can create a business model, by selling content differently.

The problem most of us have is that said company charges us filet mignon prices for ground chuck (see the 3 year old video cards for the Mac Pro). Most of us are willing to pay for the best and that's why we've adopted Blu-Ray -- we want the best.

 

[toke lahti]

In the famous words of Alan Kay... "Would you rather have something that is good today? or wait for something that actually IS good tomorrow?"

Would you wait a decade for that tomorrow?
I wouldn't.
And that's about the time it will get for bd-quality iTunes-movies to majority of mac users all over the globe.

First, again, apologies for reading only posts 1100-1640.
I already wasted too much time on this...

1. About this thread

There were some comments that this thread is insignificant. I don't agree. This thread is already in all time top 10 in MacRumors.com News Discussion for its size. Although there aren't so many speakers, there's also a lot of silent readers.
If you look other popular threads in MacRumors.com News Discussion, you'll find topics like lack of firewire and iphone4 reception issues. So this is major topic.

2. Optical storage

I find it pretty illogical saying that macs should have dvd-drives, but not bd-drives. Question is: should they have optical drive? And if they should, why it couldn't be newest generation ie. why it should be outdated technology?
Answer isn't price, because then there could be option in BTO.
I felt embarassed for Apple when they were the last state-of-the-art brand to offer cd/dvd-combos in their new products.
I think optical storage is really good, widely used and has a bright future:
http://www.physorg.com/news193896595.html
How many of you have file based content or memories from 80's or 90's in hdd's only? Who hasn't made backup of photos to optical disk?
Only explanation why macs don't have bd is Apple doesn't want people to playback bd-movies with macs. Why is it then okay for Apple fot people to playback dvd-movies with macs?
Humans are naturally collectors. They like to collect things to collections. Streaming is not perceived as collection. Average consumers will never have all their content in optical disks transferred to ssd. They don't have enough storage space or time or skills for that. Billions of cd's & dvd's are in collections that consumers want to keep. So optical formats are here to stay. They might disappear from Apple's ecosystem, but not from consumer's.

3. Bd vs. iTunes

Macs have dvd-drives because when they were introduced, there were no movies sold in iTunes and macs were sold for making your own (family/professional) dvd-movies. I guess that if Apple could take dvd-drives away from macs now, they would. But people are accustomed to have them, so mac users would be outraged if it would be taken away from them. Like firewire. Once you give it, ou can't take it away. This is why there's so few features like connectors and protocols in new Apple products like Air or iPad.
When they don't give us eSata or usb3 or express card slot, they won't have to support it either in the future, but instead they can introduce proprietary replacements for these "open" standards.
They can control the ecosystem more tightly, when there's only the bare minimum of features. Maybe Apple has some masterplan to replace optical media with sd-cards and this is why I guess the next Mac Pro will have sd-reader and something taken away (pci-card slot?).
With iTunes-movies distributed in sd-cards, Apple could try to rule the physical movie distribution also.

Is bd dead before it's even widely spread, like some like to shout here?
Well, bd is the most succesful information storage format ever. There are more bd-players/drives in use than all the products Apple has ever sold combined.
It is also pretty funny to state that optical storage is dead, "because I only use my dvd-drive to rip cd's", when optical disks are by far the most used format for delivering any kind of media and will be for a long time.
Check out some data from DEG: 280M+18M dvd+BD-players sold in US, 135M+8M in Europe. Billions of dvd-movies sold & almost half a billion bd-movies. These are not going to landfills any decade soon. VHS went there, because you can't play it in your dvd-player or computer. Cd's & dvd's can be played in any optical drive also in the future.
So the only real question is: Is optical disappearing from Apple's ecosystem?

4. Computers vs. single-purpose gadgets vs. closed ecosystems

I don't like lugging bunch of single purpose gadgets, if it's not professionally mandatory. I never bought iPod, because my work depends on hearing the phone ring. When radio & music playback came to phones, I started using them instantly. I'll never buy dedicated e-book reader. Or GPS device. Or gaming device. Or compact camera.
Same goes for our living room. It would be nicest if one HTPC could handle it all.
Also one laptop should be able to handle everything. I'm not going to carry any portable bd-player with it.
I might buy iPad, when it comes available, or maybe cheaply 2nd-hand, but not to go with others, only when I don't need the others. (Small fast reading, etc.)
I think the whole idea of personal computer is that you can do everything with it. You don't need several of them with different features, os's and software sets. In this sense, it is just plain wrong if you have to buy another os & some software to playback a certain optical disc.
Apple's recent activity in taking away, limiting or not giving new features to their computers is also against the ideology of "using one computer for all".
I find this tightening of ecosystem much more acceptable for iPad, because it's not meant "for all" and nobody's expecting it to replace "a whole computer".

5. OsX monopoly

Apple's way of neglecting bd, loosing interest in software development (FCS & OsX), taking away more and more hardware expandability, bad workstation design and neglecting many new technologies, all mostly propably just to tighten their ecosystem has lead me to look for other computers.
This is where the problems come. I like OsX. I have had so much so bad experience with windows pc's in last 2 decades, that I wouldn't like to bet my work on it.
I'm making low income by making content in a small market. I don't have lots of money to try different gadgets. I'm not gonna buy another CS license for the other os. Windows pc's problems are not only their os, but you can't count on everything working together. Some manufacturer might not make update on some driver or software and some do and as a result unreliable computer.
So when it looks like Apple is not so interested about multipurpose state-of-the-art macs that you can freely use in a way you want anymore, it looks like there's a need for new OS!
Who would have thought 5 years ago, that windows will support 30-bit colors, but OsX wouldn't...

 

[Reddkryten]

WOW!, entertainment has a 'food chain' and you need 'seven figure funding' to rise above a krill?
This stuff is amazing, do the people on YouTube and at Cannes know?

s:

Im not quite sure what you mean by this, when you mention youtube, are you trying to compare a video of a cat playing the piano to Transformers 2? If you look at the films screened at the last Cannes festival, youll see that those films cost quite a bit, Robin Hood wasnt cheep ya know, Neither was Wallstreet 2.

Yes, people have made short films and uploaded them onto youtube (I think I even heard of someone tying to make a youtube feature) but that still cost money, during film production you basicially bleed money. Even the simpilist youtube video costs in terms of camera, tape etc.

Im not saying that it is impossible to make a low budget film such as El Mariachi, what I am saying is that films cost a lot, and everyone on youtube and at Cannes knows that.

 

[janstett]

Yes, but you are living in Britain where modern technology is looked down upon. I'm in the States where if you go into a Walmart you'd be hard pressed to find a Blu-Ray disc... it's all iPods, iPhones and accessories for them.

would you like just one of us to volunteer to go into Wal-Mart and post a video of all the Blu-rays to call your bluff?

I know this is a difficult notion to grasp...but...
Pixar is Pixar and Apple is Apple.
Commercially, the goals of the two organisations are different.

C.

Yes, one is a state of the art company pushing the envelope of technology and creativity.

The other is a company that makes computers that can't play the first company's content in its best presentation.

Just saying, yes they do. The 3.5mm jack is also an optical port.

The best you can get out of that is 1.4 mbps DTS EX (6.1, and far more common to get low bitrate Dolby Digital and I think that maxes out at 600kbps).

Compared to what's going on with the new lossless codecs DTS HD-MA and Dolby True HD, it's like talking about OS9 on a 68040 here.

A 401 cannot sell products to better the world, so get off your high horse and accept the reason why Apple uses corporate tax rules to get around their ultimate aim.

So why aren't Apple products offerred at cost instead of having some of the fattest profit margins in the business?

 

[Carniphage]

Yes, one is a state of the art company pushing the envelope of technology and creativity.

The other is a company that makes computers that can't play the first company's content in its best presentation.

Honestly, truly, people who genuinely give a rats-ass about a quality motion picture experience do not watch their content on a *computer*. They buy dedicated gear.

People passionate about audio, don't listen to it on an iPod.

People who care about performance motor vehicles don't ride around on Segways.

C.

 

[macdrew]

Actually, you're wrong there. Steve Jobs is CEO of Pixar, as you'll recall. Pixar makes quite the fuss about presenting their films in the best possible quality with direct-to-digital transfers (no telecine) and stunning Blu-Ray releases. For some reason Steve's Jihad against Blu-Ray doesn't extend to Pixar. Nor Disney, which Steve is now a board member of due to its acquisition of Pixar. In fact, Disney seems quite excited about Blu-Ray.

Steve is no longer CEO of Pixar, and hasn't been for years. Jim Morris is now General Manager of Pixar.

 

[h0mi]

wat?

DVD is in over 90% of households. 25% of households have no internet service, and surveys indicate that the majority of these households are uninterested in said service.

 

[macdrew]

So why aren't Apple products offerred at cost instead of having some of the fattest profit margins in the business?

Because money is a symbol of creativity, a tool to better the world.

 

[Carniphage]

You legally paid to enjoy it on a dvd player, not on your iDevice.

This is what archepelago just said:

You legally paid to enjoy it on a dvd player, not on your iDevice.

Kind of comical for this thread, don't you think?
You tell em Archie, you heard it here.
You are not entitled to watch BluRay on your iDevices folks.

C.

 

[janstett]

I removed all your insanity except the last line, (because it made me laugh). Sorry, but free content already rules, it's the future of society and there is zero way to stop it. Take a look at Vuze, it makes finding content, getting content, playing content extremely easy.

Digital Liberation

So the idea that Blu-ray will ever take off and "save" the content providers is baseless. Data yearns to be free, and the Macintosh is the center of this freedom.

I missed when the iTunes store started giving away content.

And Vuze is a steaming pile of dog poo, slow and unstable and eats up CPU. Use transmission.

 

[janstett]

Technology superiority means nothing when people will flock to convenience. I know its hard for the Blu Ray jockeys to understand this but, NORMAL CONSUMERS don't give a **** about bitrates, 7.1 audio, etc. If it looks good they'll like it. It doesn't matter if they can get a better video quality if the stream (or just regular DVD for that matter) already looks good enough, which for many many people, is the case.

Normal consumers also don't give a *** about Macs.

 

[nickane]

Honestly, truly, people who genuinely give a rats-ass about a quality motion picture experience do not watch their content on a *computer*. They buy dedicated gear.

People passionate about audio, don't listen to it on an iPod.

People who care about performance motor vehicles don't ride around on Segways.

C.

People with dedicated home theatres often use HTPC/HCPC's to handle playback as a dedicated scaler (eg. TAW's The Rock) can cost $1000s. The Mac Mini is particularly popular for this owing to its small size. There is a whole forum devoted to Macs on avsforum (the biggest US AV forum) and every thread is specifically about mac minis:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=115

It is for precisely this reason that many people are clamouring for specifically a Mac Mini with bluray. Needless to say, Jobsy would rather we all used apple tv's instead of mac minis (even though the former is believed to be sold at a loss) but that's only because he likes to limit his users' options to the itunes store (something that was true long before his ridiculous posturing regarding bluray licensing followed by this BS attempt to cast it as a failing format when its catching on quicker than DVD did).

Audiophiles do indeed mostly use ipods. They often hack them to run Linux/Rockbox. They typically strap them to an amp and use the dock connector to run a lineout, but most of them use iPods. The SQ on the iPod has seen marked improvements with both the 5G classic and later, the iPhone. The best resource for such info is head-fi:

http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/293539/pictures-of-your-portable-rig-part-x

I know nothing about cars and segways except that there are far too many car analogies on this forum (as well as on the other two I mentioned).

 

[archipellago]

This is what archepelago just said:

You legally paid to enjoy it on a dvd player, not on your iDevice.

Kind of comical for this thread, don't you think?
You tell em Archie, you heard it here.
You are not entitled to watch BluRay on your iDevices folks.

C.

thanks for finally recognising the law.....

only took 70 pages and a few days... !

 

[nickane]

Normal consumers also don't give a *** about Macs.

So true. People on these forums always talk as if His Jobsness really understands what the mainstream market wants, but he's said time and time again, that this is not a market he is going after with macs, having lost that battle years ago.

This is surely why Apple prefers to find new or failing market sectors (tablet, smartphone, high-capacity mp3 players) and dominate them with innovative designs, intuitive GUIs and original implementations.

Apple may have 85% of the mp3 player market, but they have longsince settled for 5% of the computer market (and 25% of its profits). It is precisely because we pay such high margins and purchase such high-end products that we have the right to demand such a standard feature as bluray (after the usual extended waiting period Apple always put us through with every big new feature). Not everyone who has bluray is a mac user, but a much higher percentage of mac users will want and be able to afford bluray than PC users. Jobs knows this and thinks that by holding off on it he can stall its progress by making life difficult for a large portion of its potential market base to absorb the cost of getting BR playback with their (already relatively overpriced) computer purchases.

 

[Carniphage]

Apple's revenue since the introduction of BluRay.

I just don't think they are feeling the consumer pressure.

C.

 

[janstett]

Honestly, truly, people who genuinely give a rats-ass about a quality motion picture experience do not watch their content on a *computer*. They buy dedicated gear.

People passionate about audio, don't listen to it on an iPod.

People who care about performance motor vehicles don't ride around on Segways.

C.

So are you admitting Apple doesn't make the highest quality stuff? Because a lot of people here seem to be under that illusion.

(And BTW there are many compelling reasons to use a computer to watch content -- see the HTPC world. People connect their computers to big screen TVs and receivers).

 

[janstett]

Steve is no longer CEO of Pixar, and hasn't been for years. Jim Morris is now General Manager of Pixar.

True but he is still highly involved at Pixar, sits on Disney's board of directors, and is the largest single shareholder of Disney stock as a result of the Pixar acquisition. Most of the Pixar inner circle (most importantly Lasseter) have moved up to high positions in Disney but they haven't forsaken Pixar.

 

[nickane]

Apple's revenue since the introduction of BluRay.

I just don't think they are feeling the consumer pressure.

C.

In that time, Apple have introduced 4 iPhones and an iPad, none of which anyone wants to put a bluray in. How much of that revenue increase do you think is down to Mac sales?

 

[janstett]

Apple's revenue since the introduction of BluRay.

I just don't think they are feeling the consumer pressure.

C.

Nice graph. Break out the iToys from the computers for a better idea of what they're losing by not supporting Blu-Ray.